Mk5 Sleeper Car... And other fantasies ;-)

[sprinterguy]

That or someone will have to refurb/make a multiple unit as a sleeper set... with engines under the floors it'll be noisy as hell :cry:

As has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum very recently, if a DMU Sleeper train were to be built, it would be possible to locate the engines under the seated coaches only, and leave the sleeper coaches as trailer vehicles: For example, the "Nightstar" rakes were to be available in two different half-train formations; the first consisting of two seated coaches, a lounge car and five sleeping cars, and the second of three seated coaches, a lounge car and three sleeping cars: Put a 750hp engine underneath each of the non-sleeper carriages and you have 2250hp for eight carriages in consist 1, and 3000hp for a seven carriage rake in consist 2. Of course an EMU Sleeper train, as could be used on the London to Glasgow/Edinburgh service, would have no such underfloor engine noise issues and could rival the existing mark 3 carriages for quietness even with motors under the sleeper coaches.

I seriously doubt that a new build of loco hauled coaching stock will be forthcoming in the future:
The HSTs have been assessed as capable of continuing in front line service until 2035 if required: I don't believe that many will remain in service that long, even in the present difficult financial climate. The GWRs' "Dean Goods" 0-6-0 locos were considered exceptional for remaining in service for up to 75 years as main line locos, and they were freight engines: Intercity passenger trains should not be expected to remain in service for a period of time as long as 60 years. I can imagine that the mark 3 sleeper rakes could continue in service until this time though, outsurviving the HSTs.

The next Great Western franchise will be a prime opportunity for the purchase of new diesel trains for the South West routes, operating primarily via the Berks and Hants: With Paddington to Cardiff electrified, those services will utilise electric IEP trains, and the Bristol to Devon & Cornwall traffic could be catered for by Crosscountry and Cardiff to Plymouth/Penzance services, making the London to Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance services suitable for the likes of 9 carriage Meridians. If such trains were to be delivered in 2020, then they would be due a mid-life refurbishment in around 2035, when thoughts could be turned to electrifying the Berks and Hants route to the South West and allowing cascading of those trains elsewhere, which is when replacement of the mark 3 operate Sleeper trains with electric replacements would have to be considered.

The Scottish parliament could probably be prevailed upon to extend their OHLE projects to encompass Aberdeen, which seems highly logical: This could coincide with a new build of EMUs in the mid-2020s to replace both the 225s and the HSTs used on the Aberdeen runs, giving a common fleet operating both sets of services, leaving only the future of the Inverness trains to be decided as concerns the operation of long distance ECML HST services.

As for the MML, who knows: Electrification could be on the cards following completion of the north west and GWML schemes, which would see the HSTs displaced, if not, then it would be fairly simple for EMT to replace it's remaining HSTs with a small additional number of Meridians.

 

[DarloRich]

From my vast experience in sleeper travel (OK ,once; last night) I don’t think there is much wrong with the existing service.

The berth is comfortable and I slept well. The on board lounge is comfortable and supplied with me a couple of cans of Duechers prior to bed! The lack of showers is not a problem as the facilities at Euston are really quite good. The current arrangements for the use of the sleeper carriages, in that they are all identical, is sensible and should continue. It allows the train to be set up to reflect loadings.

As for changes:

1) Individual power points for each berth
2) Wi-Fi throughout (free if possible) - both of these speak to the fact that most people carry with them some sort of device for viewing films or listening to music and surfing the net. They expect to be able to use them easily at all times
3) Free Access for all passengers to shower/rest room facilities at termini - removes the need for showers to be fitted.
4) Lounge facilities at termini to be increased to offer a better service to first class passengers
5) A working blind. It is difficult to know where you are, even in daylight if your blind is screwed down!
6) The lack of en suite toilets may put off some customers. I think this would be impossible to resolve without a brand new vehicle as you would loose half the berths in an existing train.
7) luggage check in facility. Arrive at lounge early and have them stow your baggage in your cabin. (I would call them cabins to not berths!)
8) offer a full meal service either in the lounge on the station or on board.

However, i cant see a new fleet of LHCS being built. Any new sleeper will be based on a DMU arrangement with the engines under the lounge, restaurant, bar, utility vehicles. There isn’t a financial case for building new stock just for the two sleeper operators in the UK. I also think that the berths may well go the way of airline style "pods" which will reduce space greatly. They dont need anything to fancy, just a quiet, comfortable cabin and a good service form the crew and train!

I also think the, mainly Glasgow/Edinburgh, sleeper service needs to be targeted more at business travellers. It allowed me to get to the office for the first day back after leave at 0830. It gave me an extra days holiday and made efficient use of my time. The prices needs to be competitive, the accommodation good and the service excellent.

 

[Zoe]

thoughts could be turned to electrifying the Berks and Hants route to the South West and allowing cascading of those trains elsewhere, which is when replacement of the mark 3 operate Sleeper trains with electric replacements would have to be considered.

I don't think electrifying the Berks and Hants should be a priority. Any time saving of this route would be negated by higher line speeds and electrification via Bristol to Plymouth. This would also benefit XC services. A regional DMU or bi-mode train could then be used for a semi-fast service to Taunton via the Berks and Hants. I think the current plan of life extending the HSTs is wise as it allows time to consider further electrification rather than committing to new DMUs.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't think electrifying the Berks and Hants should be a priority. Any time saving of this route would be negated by higher line speeds and electrification via Bristol to Plymouth. This would also benefit XC services. A regional DMU or bi-mode train could then be used for a semi-fast service to Taunton via the Berks and Hants. I think the current plan of life extending the HSTs is wise as it allows time to consider further electrification rather than committing to new DMUs.

Good point, something that I hadn’t considered: There’d be less mileage to electrify to get to Plymouth if the electrified South West services were routed via Bristol while the B&H was downgraded to regional and local services.

 

[Blindtraveler]

NewDMU sleaper, urm, no ta. If you got a bed, fine. If you got a seat, most certainly not fine! If I wanted to travel first clas on a voyager, i'd book to do so. if they can come up with a way of putting motors under buffet and lounge only, or an EMU with generater van, an EMU with a deezol drag beyonde the wires, cool. Alternatively, sound proofing to a heavy extent in seated coach would be needed.

 

[w1bbl3]

I also think that the berths may well go the way of airline style "pods" which will reduce space greatly. They dont need anything to fancy, just a quiet, comfortable cabin and a good service form the crew and train!

I hadn't actually considered airline style pods, but you do have a very good point. Thinking out loud about this, couldn't pods technically be installed into a day coach/car. Also these could be arranged with a central aisle thus creating similar sleeping capacity to current stock but with every sleeper getting a private berth. Then a larger traditional berth/cabin including a en-suite could be offered at a premium.
Such pods could be sold as 2nd class sleeper beds priced at around the same cost as a 1st class day ticket, with traditional berth's being offered as 1st class sleeper rooms for a premium over 1st class day ticket.

I don't think electrifying the Berks and Hants should be a priority. Any time saving of this route would be negated by higher line speeds and electrification via Bristol to Plymouth.

The already proposed and planned 20 minute journey time reduction on London > Bristol temple meads via parkway surely makes B&H not that much faster anyway without any line speed upgrade on the Bristol to Exeter line. Assuming the Bristol to Exeter line was upgraded to 125mph running as far as Taunton it is I suspect possible for the long way round via Bristol to be shorter in time.

In terms of future EMU sleepers I suppose the question really is will Exeter to Plymouth ever prove viable before the mk3's reach end of life, I can quite easily see the Bristol to Exeter being electrified along with Cardiff to Swansea as a direct follow on.
An EMU sleeper could I suppose be diesel loco hauled in the event of OLE maintenance along the route, or PW works requiring a diversion away from the electrified main line.

 

[Zoe]

will Exeter to Plymouth ever prove viable before the mk3's reach end of life, I can quite easily see the Bristol to Exeter being electrified along with Cardiff to Swansea as a direct follow on.

As I have said before, if there is a case for electrification west of Bristol then I don't see why it wouldn't be a case for it to continue to Plymouth. Ending the wires at Exeter would be pointless as most services continue to Plymouth. You would end up with either DMUs under the wires for the majority of their journeys or bi-mode trains.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don't think electrifying the Berks and Hants should be a priority. Any time saving of this route would be negated by higher line speeds and electrification via Bristol to Plymouth. This would also benefit XC services. A regional DMU or bi-mode train could then be used for a semi-fast service to Taunton via the Berks and Hants. I think the current plan of life extending the HSTs is wise as it allows time to consider further electrification rather than committing to new DMUs.

What sort of difference would tilting trains make on the Reading to Taunton (via Westbury) route? If tilt isn't really going to save much time, then perhaps a regional DMU Reading to Taunton and routing the expresses via Bristol as you suggest would work better. The only possible issue with your suggestion is track capacity between Bristol and Reading via Swindon, which might require some (expensive) quadroupling.

 

[Zoe]

The only possible issue with your suggestion is track capacity between Bristol and Reading via Swindon, which might require some (expensive) quadroupling.

I don't think it would. There are already going to be extra services to Bristol as part of the IEP plan and some of these can be extended to Plymouth.

 

[Yew]

I think the best route for new 125/225/Mk3 stock, Would be to just build some new ones. Same schematics, just automatic doors, maybe better engines for the locos and new lightweight materials. Then make a new build of small locos to haul the old carriages If we have overcrowding probelms on branch lines

 

[williamn]

As a poster above says, I imagine once the MK3's need to be replaced the Sleeper Service will (sadly) be abolished.

 

[DarloRich]

As a poster above says, I imagine once the MK3's need to be replaced the Sleeper Service will (sadly) be abolished.

I dont think that has to be the case. There is a market for the service. After talking to some collegues who use the service often it is quite well loaded (at least the Galsgow/Edinburgh service) and i think the business is there to make it work.

It is the most efficent way of traveling to ensure an early arrival in London.

 

[Zoe]

It is the most efficent way of traveling to ensure an early arrival in London.

An overnight coach could do the same though.

 

[sprinterguy]

An overnight coach could do the same though.

But would be nowhere near as efficient: Very little hope of having a good nights’ sleep, and would probably still have a slower journey time than the Sleeper. Not to mention the much smaller range of passenger comforts available on an overnight coach, or the reduced ability to get on with work before getting some sleep.

 

[DarloRich]

An overnight coach could do the same though.

No where near as comfortable. Although snug i found the berth comfortable when i got used to it. Would have hated to sit in a seat all night.

 

[w1bbl3]

As I have said before, if there is a case for electrification west of Bristol then I don't see why it wouldn't be a case for it to continue to Plymouth. Ending the wires at Exeter would be pointless as most services continue to Plymouth. You would end up with either DMUs under the wires for the majority of their journeys or bi-mode trains.

Actually I disagree as there are not that many services between Exeter and Paddington that actually start at Plymouth, most services actually start back at Penzance. Admittedly very little starts at Exeter so electrification probably should start further along the route if some form of bi-mode is to be used perhaps at say Newton Abbot.

By my counting there are 21 services from Exeter to Paddington per week day which start at:
- 3 No Exeter
- 3 No Paignton
- 6 No Plymouth
- 9 No Penzance
Of these 5 services are routed via Bristol.

Going from Paddington to Exeter there are 20 services which then terminate or continue:
- 3 No terminate Exeter
- 3 No terminate Paignton
- 6 No terminate Plymouth
- 8 No terminate Penzance
Of these 3 services are routed via Bristol.

Electrification to Exeter including via Weston super mare only converts 6 (14%) daily high speed services and 40 (80%) daily local Cardiff/Bristol services, extending to Plymouth converts 18 (43%) high speed + 50 local Cardiff/Bristol (100%).

Considering that the bulk (41%) of daily services actually commence/terminate at Penzance then DMU's under the wires, bi-modes or loco swaps would be fact of life on south west services anyway.

 

[Zoe]

Don't forget XC services would also beneift from electrification and most of these do termiante at Plymouth. You may disagree but ending the wires at Exeter in my opinion is quite pointless. Almost everything that arrives at Exeter on the GWML continues west. I don't think Exeter is a good place to end the wires, I just can't see any case for not continuing to Plymouth. I would expect the Torbay branch to also be wired as part of this. If you do end at Exeter then bi-mode or DMUs under wires would be needed for almost all the trains other than the few that do terminate at Exeter. Extending through to Plymouth will allow more service to go over to EMU operation. This would allow at last half of the services from London to be EMU operatoed and as for Penzance, I'm not sure it needs quite as many through services to London as it currently gets.

 

[Via Bank]

Once the current sleeper stock becomes life-expired, I'd imagine that IEP will have made the majority of HSTs and IC225 sets redundant - of course, HSTs are simply Mk3 + 43 sets, but the IC225 sets with their Mk4s should have some life left in them, surely?

Failing that, there's always the option of ordering a few more IEPs and fitting them out with sleeper accommodation. The idea of airline-style pods I like: if they were provided in addition to berth accommodation, pod sleepers could easily become a viable option for someone who has to travel at short notice and doesn't want to have to find accommodation at the other end in the middle of the night. (The lowland sleeper could easily become a viable option for people who've missed the last regular WCML service to Glasgow or Edinburgh.)

I think there is a market, and there still may well be even after HS2 is built (Stage I, of which, let's not forget, isn't anticipated until 2025.) Glasgow-London in 3h30 is all well and good, but the prospect of arriving at the dead of night anywhere without accommodation or a taxi will still provide a niche market for sleepers.

 

[Nym]

IEP could work well for the route if it where done properly...

Now, fitting it to within the 5 car bi-mode spec units, for ease of working, lets say 1 lounge car, one kitchen / buffet / bar (next to the lounge car) and the remaining three a mixture of the airline style 'pods' and private births, this could be taken again from the airline industry as certain middle eastern airlines have 1st class private suites onboard.

Within the 5 cars...

Car 1: Kitchen (Front 1/3 of unit for crumple zones) & Resturant
Car 2: Bar & Seating (Extention of resturant)
Car 3: Private suites, 8 of them, double beds, paid for by the birth.
Car 4: Airline style semi private booths proberbly be able to fit 20 in a carrage
Car 5: Either, budget open bunk beds (youth hostel style) or more semi private airliney things

If these where approched like the Boeing 777, where everything is modular and able to be changed within a service cycle (2 days or so) then 5 car Bio Mode IEPs could be fitted for sleeper running, although I'd suspect that a 6 car unit would be better.

The main thing that would be needed, especially on the highland sleepers is a proper kitchen, nothing massive, but being able to do cooked breakfasts would be a massive bonus. And if it's MU stock, one end can house the kitchen, and the other 'checked in' passenger luggage.

I'd recon it would be quite easy to flog a Euston - Aberdeen suite for £300, cheap-o bed for £150 and youth hostel bunks could sell, maybe. But this would also need at least 3 staff on the unit. (Driver, Host, Cook/Host)

Much easyer to layout a pair of 8 car IEPs for the lowlands sleepers...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I posted this somewhere a few months ago; an outline idea design for just such an eventuality as the Mk 3 Sleepers being unable to run any more. The main reason I went for an EDMU design was to eliminate a lot of the costs involved with the present locomotive attachments / detachments and to simplify the splitting and joining process.

Apart from cost savings on the existing services, this is intended to allow an expansion of Sleeper operations through the flexibility and convenience keeping the costs down, for example allowing a NE- SW flow to be re-introduced, or the ability to serve places like Swansea, Holyhead, the Cambrian and re-introduce the Plymouth split on the Night Riviera.

The cabins in it are basically the same as in the present Mk 3 stock, but with sliding instead of hinged doors in order to make it much easier to get in / out of the cabin and when using the interconnecting door there would be a little bit more usable space.

Note the careful arrangement of the doors to allow the same number of doors and spacing on each side of the unit without reducing the number of cabins - this is only possible with an articulated unit; you couldn't use such a door arrangement on conventional stock.

The carriages are shorter than Mk 3s; four of these five car units would equal the length of the present 16 car Caledonian rakes and have similar capacity. There are three disabled toilets and two conventional toilets in each unit; the disabled cabins would be at each end of each unit ( ie near the disabled toilets ) and larger vestibules are provided at these locations.

 

[w1bbl3]

Don't forget XC services would also beneift from electrification and most of these do termiante at Plymouth.

I'd only vaguely considered benefits to XC of voyager pantograph cars as TBH assuming this somewhere in far distance say 2020-2025 will Bombardier still be willing or able to produce such a car?

You are right that Exeter is a bad place to stop but then again Cardiff on the SWML is an equally bad place. My reasoning is that 50 miles of electrification can probably be better utilised elsewhere on the network for example TPX Manchester to Leeds, GW to Swansea or GW Cheltenham to Bristol and Swindon. The latter allowing full EMU operation of London services and EMU commuter services from Gloucester/Cheltenham to Bristol and the south west, plus potentially introducing a diversionary route for when the Severn tunnel is closed.


Anyway back to sleepers is there any particular reason why a current mk3/4 day coach or cl222 trailer car couldn't be converted to a sleeper? Smart Glass could for example be used in place of blinds.

I think there is a market, and there still may well be even after HS2 is built (Stage I, of which, let's not forget, isn't anticipated until 2025.)

Post HS2 might even open up a viable market in intra-Europe sleepers, Paris, Berlin, Strasburg, Turin and Barcelona all become viable overnights from London, Birmingham, Cardiff, Bristol, Leeds and Sheffield.

Car 5: Either, budget open bunk beds (youth hostel style) or more semi private airliney things

I'd recon it would be quite easy to flog a Euston - Aberdeen suite for £300, cheap-o bed for £150 and youth hostel bunks could sell, maybe. But this would also need at least 3 staff on the unit. (Driver, Host, Cook/Host)

Wouldn't your fifth car be better with airline style reclining or lay flat seats rather than bunk beds or airline style suites. All the beds could technically be disabled access compliant and I'd expect a similar passenger density to a first class day coach could be achieved.
Also 3 staff is a decent reduction vs current sleepers where you need one host per 2 SLEP/SLE's, which would help the economics somewhat.

 

[Zoe]

My reasoning is that 50 miles of electrification can probably be better utilised elsewhere on the network

If it is the case that other areas should be a priority for electrification then there isn't much point in electrifying to Exeter at all as very few services will go over to EMU operation as a result. The local service from Bristol runs to Taunton so if there was any electrification west of Bristol then Taunton would be a more logica place for it to end as the Bristol to Taunton via Weston-super-Mare service could then go over to EMU operation. You would also save an additional 30 miles of electrification.

 

[Nym]

Wouldn't your fifth car be better with airline style reclining or lay flat seats rather than bunk beds or airline style suites. All the beds could technically be disabled access compliant and I'd expect a similar passenger density to a first class day coach could be achieved.
Also 3 staff is a decent reduction vs current sleepers where you need one host per 2 SLEP/SLE's, which would help the economics somewhat.

Ah, my logic there was that you could only fit 20 - 24 lie flat buiness seats in a 26m carrage, whereas you could fit somthing in the order of 40 - 48 bunks, as they can stack two or possibly three high.

Centre corridor with bunks either side.

 

[Blindtraveler]

cant see punters liking open plan bunks

 

[asylumxl]

Ah, my logic there was that you could only fit 20 - 24 lie flat buiness seats in a 26m carrage, whereas you could fit somthing in the order of 40 - 48 bunks, as they can stack two or possibly three high.

Centre corridor with bunks either side.

What about the Japanese style pods? A bit more private but still with the advantages of conventional bunks?

 

[w1bbl3]

Centre corridor with bunks either side.

Ah I see, I suppose with corridor facing blinds you'd get a degree of privacy. It wouldn't be that different to shared cabins on current sleeper services. I still wonder if these would have to be to disabled access compliant.

Could the bunks fit in a two aisle configuration to provide three rows of sleeping rather than just two?

 

[ainsworth74]

Rather than bunks why not using a capsule hotel model like this? It gives you the space advantage of bunks but with the privacy of a door.

 

[MCR247]

That could also improve sound proofing

 

[Bon Accord]

To be fair, the capsule looks (and to me at least would feel) more like a coffin than anything else.
Or perhaps a Pathologists freezer!

 

[Nym]

I was thinking open on one side with a curtain blind and a ladder, to get in and out, and it would be cheap. So it would attract the biudget traveller. I'd use it if I wanted to get from PRE to Fort Williham