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Attempt to wreck a train 1880s

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Andy873

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I was just going through some old newspapers regarding my old line and I was surprised by one Derby newspaper. It reported that there was an attempt to wreck a train on the branch line on Saturday evening 16 August 1884. I don't know what happened but the thing is, it's headed "Another attempt to wreck a train".

Was this common?
 
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Gloster

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Probably newspaper hyperbole. Children put a few bits of rubbish on the track as a dare or strikers put something on the line to stop trains while a dispute is on and the papers blow it up to make a story. Was there anything in a local paper or was there a dispute on locally? Be careful about making a big thing about this this without evidence that it was more than the most trivial occurrence or that it did actually happen.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Perhaps a spate of copycat incidents. There had been a press story, only the day or two beforehand, about an attempt to wreck the mail train between Cork and Bantry in West Cork by placing heavy stones on the line near an embankment. Fortunately for those concerned, the train had kept to the rails. It was further reported that this was the third time within the last few months that an attempt has been made to wreck the said mail train. Having said that, the newspapers of the time do seem to have reported on any/all railway related incidents (such as a loco breakdown) and no matter how minor/insignificant.
 

Andy873

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Be careful about making a big thing about this this without evidence that it was more than the most trivial occurrence
Don't worry, I won't! It's hard to know what really happened. If it was a true attempt then they picked a good spot which was out in the countryside.

Having said that, the newspapers of the time do seem to have reported on any/all railway related incidents (such as a loco breakdown) and no matter how minor/insignificant.
Yes, the newspapers of the time did seem to report anything and everything regarding the railways. Reporting of actual dates say for a footbridge opening, or a water column being erected I can accept, but worry about reports being exaggerated - something we still recognise today.
 

Rescars

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Yes, the newspapers of the time did seem to report anything and everything regarding the railways. Reporting of actual dates say for a footbridge opening, or a water column being erected I can accept, but worry about reports being exaggerated - something we still recognise today.
The 1880's takes us back pre-Armargh to era of the battles the Board of Trade had with the companies over "lock, block and brake". At that time there were no doubt quite a number of incidents of various sorts which would have attracted press coverage, at least locally if not more widely.
 

Andy873

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What really surprised me was the number of accidents and fatalities, and this was just on one branch line, 9 miles long with only three stations. One pattern I can see though is the number of incidents reduce as we move towards to formation of the big four.

Question - when were lookouts for platelayers introduced?
 

Gloster

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Question - when were lookouts for platelayers introduced?

A detail that is probably lost in the fogs of history. There may have been some places or gangs where it was introduced earlier than others and (semi-)accepted by the management, but often it probably depended on the ganger: was he a bosses’ man who wanted to have everybody at work or was he more realistic/easy-going type? There might be something to be found in the rule-books as to which edition a mention of them first appeared in, but that would likely to be long after they were used in some places and contained enough exceptions so that they weren’t always used. I suspect we will never know the definite answer, if there is one.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Question - when were lookouts for platelayers introduced?
Possibly, not by the mid 1890s, a decade later than the incident mentioned in the opening post by @Andy873, as questions were still being asked in September 1894 about the numbers of fatalities to platelayers engaged on the English railways and the absence of lookouts.

A Mr. Edward Harford, secretary of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants, is quoted in the press at the time as being of the opinion that the bulk of these fatal accidents were quite preventable if only the companies would spend the money on proper safeguards.
 

stuving

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Possibly, not by the mid 1890s, a decade later than the incident mentioned in the opening post by @Andy873, as questions were still being asked in September 1894 about the numbers of fatalities to platelayers engaged on the English railways and the absence of lookouts.

A Mr. Edward Harford, secretary of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants, is quoted in the press at the time as being of the opinion that the bulk of these fatal accidents were quite preventable if only the companies would spend the money on proper safeguards.
But it went on ... and on. The basic idea that lookouts were necessary did very slowly become accepted, but as late as the 1960s their use was for the ganger to decide. With a clear view of a straight track, or with only a few workers, they were still not being posted. The number of inquests reported in the papers does come down, but they still give verdicts of accidental death or misadventure, often with a rider that lookouts should be posted. Each is approached as a unique event, and the overall position doesn't really get taken into account until the Health and Safety at Work act of 1974.

Until then the old legal principle was that the primary responsibility for any individual's safety rested with that individual. I spent several days leafing through bundles of court papers in The National Archives, looking for the "pleadings" (documents presented in court) of a family case in Chancery. These are boxed by initial letter, but not indexed, so you have to try not to waste time reading them after checking the case reference.

But some of us are easily distracted ... these boxes also hold King's bench cases, such as negligence, so there were a lot against railway companies brought by widows and those injured. The ones I saw all failed, on the grounds that the "victim" had not been careful enough when using a level crossing, getting out of a train that moved, etc. And before the H&S revolution of the 70s, employees were in the same position.
 

Rescars

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As a bit of an aside, IIRC one of the reasons that the Staplehurst accident occurred in 1865 was because a lookout was posted, but this was to signal to any train approaching to stop rather than to warn the p-way gang. Because of a miscalculation over distances, the lookout was much closer to the break in the rails than he should have been, so the tidal boat train was unable to stop in time, with tragic consequences.
 

Andy873

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But it went on ... and on. The basic idea that lookouts were necessary did very slowly become accepted, but as late as the 1960s their use was for the ganger to decide. With a clear view of a straight track, or with only a few workers, they were still not being posted. The number of inquests reported in the papers does come down, but they still give verdicts of accidental death or misadventure, often with a rider that lookouts should be posted. Each is approached as a unique event, and the overall position doesn't really get taken into account until the Health and Safety at Work act of 1974.

There were several platelayer fatalities on the branch line, one happened in 1910 and with this one, look outs were recommended. I was surprised (with my limited railway knowledge) that by 1910 there was no obligation to have a look out for the platelayers, but I'm clearly wrong from what you're all telling me.

This line, like many others was also used as a diversion line, it's quite clear from a platelayer's perspective you can't just say the 9.00am train has just gone by and there's no more until the 10.00am one. Anything could come down the line at any time.

so there were a lot against railway companies brought by widows and those injured. The ones I saw all failed, on the grounds that the "victim" had not been careful enough when using a level crossing, getting out of a train that moved, etc.
Yes, that's what I'm seeing in those newspapers, especially trying to get on / off a moving train, doesn't look like they were on the whole successful, but one lady did win £244 for the death of her husband at Great Harwood station in 1901.

A Mr. Edward Harford, secretary of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants, is quoted in the press at the time as being of the opinion that the bulk of these fatal accidents were quite preventable if only the companies would spend the money on proper safeguards.
Definitely preventable, I for one wouldn't have wanted to work as a platelayer back then knowing no one was watching out for you.

Because of a miscalculation over distances, the lookout was much closer to the break in the rails than he should have been, so the tidal boat train was unable to stop in time, with tragic consequences.
A very sad incident, and you can almost here some railway companies saying we've tried look outs - and look what happened.

The ones I saw all failed, on the grounds that the "victim" had not been careful enough when using a level crossing
The worst one for me was indeed a level crossing accident (really an occupation crossing) near Dunkirk fam close to the village of Read. Late one December's night in 1880 a farmer was crossing the tracks when he was hit by a train from Burnley. Both he, and his horse died and the cart was smashed to pieces.

The newspaper articles do show a darker side the my old branch line, however not everything reported was bad... During LMS days, a pigeon was struck by a train, the fireman climbed into the tender and rescued it.
 

Pigeon

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The newspaper articles do show a darker side the my old branch line, however not everything reported was bad... During LMS days, a pigeon was struck by a train, the fireman climbed into the tender and rescued it.

Excellent. I approve :D
 

Bevan Price

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In Ireland, it should be remembered that there were various periods of "troubles" long before the 20th century acts of violence and sabotage by those not confining themselves to peaceful protest whilst seeking Irish independence / a united Ireland.
 

4069

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Lookouts for men working on the track were made compulsory by rules made in 1902 under the Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) Act 1900:



but you have to register to be able to read far enough to see the rule relating to look-outs.
 

Rescars

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Lookouts for men working on the track were made compulsory by rules made in 1902 under the Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) Act 1900:



but you have to register to be able to read far enough to see the rule relating to look-outs.
The Schedule at the end of the Act list a range of rules in addition to those protecting p-way staff. These hint at a number of high risk issues including aspects of loco design and various shunting practices. Regarding the latter (and this must be for another thread, but I am not sure how to achieve a split [help please Mods]), does anyone know what "propping and tow-roping" entailed?
 

Gloster

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The Schedule at the end of the Act list a range of rules in addition to those protecting p-way staff. These hint at a number of high risk issues including aspects of loco design and various shunting practices. Regarding the latter (and this must be for another thread, but I am not sure how to achieve a split [help please Mods]), does anyone know what "propping and tow-roping" entailed?

I think that propping meant supporting the drop-down sides or side doors of an open wagon with a piece of wood or similar so that they were horizontal, rather than letting them down fully to the vertical position that they should assume when open. This could make it easier for those loading or unloading the wagons, but if the prop slipped, they and the contents could be thrown to the ground.

Tow-roping might mean moving wagons using a rope with one end tied to a part of the wagon and the other to the loco, with the wagon being loose. Or it might quite simply mean hauling a wagon using a rope instead of a coupling and the wagon some distance behind the loco. This depends on the context.
 

stuving

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I think that propping meant supporting the drop-down sides or side doors of an open wagon with a piece of wood or similar so that they were horizontal, rather than letting them down fully to the vertical position that they should assume when open. This could make it easier for those loading or unloading the wagons, but if the prop slipped, they and the contents could be thrown to the ground.

Tow-roping might mean moving wagons using a rope with one end tied to a part of the wagon and the other to the loco, with the wagon being loose. Or it might quite simply mean hauling a wagon using a rope instead of a coupling and the wagon some distance behind the loco. This depends on the context.
The item is "movement of waggons by propping and tow roping". I think the tow rope was indeed used between a loco or train on one track and one or more wagons on another track. I have come across a mention of using a wooden prop in a similar manner but to push rather than pull - but much more dangerous, of course! Given that this is a way of moving wagons, I think that's what it means.
 

Gloster

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The item is "movement of waggons by propping and tow roping". I think the tow rope was indeed used between a loco or train on one track and one or more wagons on another track. I have come across a mention of using a wooden prop in a similar manner but to push rather than pull - but much more dangerous, of course! Given that this is a way of moving wagons, I think that's what it means.

Yes, if it is about the movement of wagons, then it is probably that: using a solid bulk of timber to propel a wagon when it is on one track and the loco is on another. The bulk is merely wedged as well as possible against the ends of loco and wagon. Somewhere, possibly on this forum, is a video of the practice being carried out in the US.
 
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