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Forced Compensation

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ComUtoR

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Evening all,

Knowing that there are strikes and rest day working bans next week. Can I book a trip and get an itinerary and then claim compensation; knowing in advance it will all go horribly wrong ?

Am I entitled to compensation because I have been inconvenienced ? or would I be entitled to a taxi because the TOC cannot, and will not be able to get me to my destination ?

Trip details : Kent > Heathrow
Travel Day : Strike Day
Ticket : Not purchased yet

Can I purchase a ticket and be able to claim the costs back, effectively getting free travel ?

Cheers in advance
 
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thedbdiboy

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If you do buy a ticket and your train is cancelled or delayed and you choose not to travel you can get a full refund. The strike days and likely disruption are already known and you haven't yet bought a ticket so you will not be compensated for any delay beyond that for any service that is planned to operate at the time you buy your ticket. If you want to travel to Heathrow from Kent on Tuesday there are no trains.

I don't know what you mean when you talk about 'getting an itinerary' given that no legitimate retailer should be selling a ticket for Tuesday, but even if you did, you'll only be entitled to a refund.
 

ComUtoR

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I don't know what you mean when you talk about 'getting an itinerary' given that no legitimate retailer should be selling a ticket for Tuesday, but even if you did, you'll only be entitled to a refund.

I'm prepared to suck up the cost and inconvenience of a refund. TBH it seem pointless trying to book a train and then claim it back because of the admin costs.

If I was able to obtain an itinenary for Tuesday; where would I stand ? What can I claim ?

I am now forced to travel early. Can I claim compensation from the TOC ?
 

Watershed

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Evening all,

Knowing that there are strikes and rest day working bans next week. Can I book a trip and get an itinerary and then claim compensation; knowing in advance it will all go horribly wrong ?

Am I entitled to compensation because I have been inconvenienced ? or would I be entitled to a taxi because the TOC cannot, and will not be able to get me to my destination ?

Trip details : Kent > Heathrow
Travel Day : Strike Day
Ticket : Not purchased yet

Can I purchase a ticket and be able to claim the costs back, effectively getting free travel ?

Cheers in advance
Just about the only way you'll now be able to buy a ticket for this journey for Tuesday would be using a "dumb" TVM that doesn't have a journey planner.

Almost all other methods of buying a ticket require at least one journey to be found, which - as there won't be any trains across most of Kent on Tuesday - will be impossible.

If you do manage to buy a ticket I think it would be hard for the railway to argue that it can simply wash its hands of any obligations by offering you a refund. There is nothing in the NRCoT that even purports to give the railway the right to do so.
 

ComUtoR

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Just about the only way you'll now be able to buy a ticket for this journey for Tuesday would be using a "dumb" TVM that doesn't have a journey planner.

Almost all other methods of buying a ticket require at least one journey to be found, which - as there won't be any trains across most of Kent on Tuesday - will be impossible.

Fair enough.

I am now very much inconvenienced and want compensation. Where do I stand ? I need to get to the Airport and my plans have now been changed because of the TOC's inability to get me there on my planned route. I had options but these are also no longer available.

Can I claim the taxi fare to a different TOC station where I can make my journey from there ?
 

Watershed

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If I was able to obtain an itinenary for Tuesday; where would I stand ? What can I claim ?
This is an entirely hypothetical situation because the timetable for Tuesday already reflects what Southeastern etc. intend to run.

But if this were not yet the case, then my view would be that you would be entitled to claim Delay Repay based on any delay incurred as compared to the timetable advertised when booking. And you would also be entitled to claim back reasonable costs for alternative transport in the (almost certain) event that the relevant train company refused to arrange this for you.

Of course that's not to say it would necessarily be easy to claim back these entitlements. But I have had reasonable success in enforcing my rights during strikes, even if on some occasions this has required considerable persistence or even (on one occasion) initiating a Court claim.

I am now forced to travel early. Can I claim compensation from the TOC ?
If this is an attempt to try and reference the other thread about travelling early, any further discussion on that topic should continue there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Fair enough.

I am now very much inconvenienced and want compensation. Where do I stand ? I need to get to the Airport and my plans have now been changed because of the TOC's inability to get me there on my planned route. I had options but these are also no longer available.

Can I claim the taxi fare to a different TOC station where I can make my journey from there ?
Without a ticket bought before timetables were amended, I am afraid you do not have any rights. You can no more force the TOC to sell you a ticket than you can force a shop to sell you a pint of milk.
 

ComUtoR

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This is an entirely hypothetical situation because the timetable for Tuesday already reflects what Southeastern etc. intend to run.

Not hypothetical. I'm due to fly out.

And you would also be entitled to claim back reasonable costs for alternative transport in the (almost certain) event that the relevant train company refused to arrange this for you.

Would a taxi to Heathrow be 'reasonable' or would the taxi to the local station be reasonable ? (Lizzy is running)

Of course that's not to say it would necessarily be easy to claim back these entitlements. But I have had reasonable success in enforcing my rights during strikes, even if on some occasions this has required considerable persistence or even (on one occasion) initiating a Court claim.

I am unaware what my 'rights are'

If this is an oblique attempt to try and reference the other thread about travelling early, any further discussion should continue there.

This would not be allowed and I was advised to make a separate thread.

However, that thread did cause this one. I need to fly from Heathrow but now I am forced to make alternative arrangements. I rarely travel by train and when I do; Its free. However, I am now out of pocket and trying to find a way to travel from Kent to Heathrow, with as little as out of pocket expense as possible. FYI, I am not the only person travelling.
 

pedr

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It is hypothetical because you have no legal relationship with any train company relevant to travelling on Tuesday, if you have not purchased a ticket which would entitle you to make that journey.

It would be arguable by a train company that, if you were to buy one now, it would still not entitle you to travel since you are aware that no trains suitable for the journey you wish to make will run.

It might theoretically be different if you had purchased a ticket - and more so if you’d received a booked itinerary - before the revised timetable was published. But that’s not the actual situation.

Since that is not the situation you cannot create a way to force a train company into agreeing a contract with you to perform a service they know they won’t be able to provide.
 

Townsend Hook

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However, that thread did cause this one. I need to fly from Heathrow but now I am forced to make alternative arrangements. I rarely travel by train and when I do; Its free. However, I am now out of pocket and trying to find a way to travel from Kent to Heathrow, with as little as out of pocket expense as possible. FYI, I am not the only person travelling.
It’s surely not reasonable to expect a TOC to compensate every person who may have chosen to travel with them on a day when they’re unable to provide a service. They have a contractual obligation to compensate passengers who have already booked travel that they simply do not have to you and others who unfortunately find themselves in the same situation; simply put, they never committed to conveying you so they’re not on the hook for the fact that you’ve been inconvenienced.
 

Watershed

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Not hypothetical. I'm due to fly out.
I don't doubt the journey is being made, but it's hypothetical in the sense that the timetable has already been changed so it's no longer possible to buy a ticket on the basis of a pre-strike-alterations timetable.

Would a taxi to Heathrow be 'reasonable' or would the taxi to the local station be reasonable ? (Lizzy is running)
Given that the Elizabeth line provides a direct option to Heathrow at much less expense, I would have said this is the limit of where a taxi could be claimed to. Equally, if there are cheaper coach or bus options that would not take unreasonably long, those should also be considered.

I am unaware what my 'rights are'
It would take too long to describe them all in detail here; is there any particular right you'd like to know more about?

This would not be allowed and I was advised to make a separate thread.
That point was discussed in the other thread and a thorough response provided. I don't think there is anything further to add.

In theory the principles described there would apply in the same way here, however you have not bought a ticket yet and (as per below) if you are reliant on staff travel facilities your pass is unlikely to fall under the Consumer Rights Act, which is what a lot of your rights would rely on.

However, that thread did cause this one. I need to fly from Heathrow but now I am forced to make alternative arrangements. I rarely travel by train and when I do; Its free.
If you are referring to staff travel facilities, it may be a different situation altogether. The pass would likely have been issued long before this specific date of strike action was even contemplated by ASLEF. There is nothing in the PRO that excludes staff travel facilities from the rights it grants (in contrast to EU261, for example). The same applies for the NRCoT, the conditions of which all passes I have seen have said they are issued subject to.

That being said, you cannot rely on the Consumer Rights Act since a discretionary (or even contractual) employment benefit is in a different category to a ticket you buy as an ordinary member of the public.

However, I am now out of pocket and trying to find a way to travel from Kent to Heathrow, with as little as out of pocket expense as possible. FYI, I am not the only person travelling.
Unfortunately you have probably left it too late to get any of your expenses back from the railway.
 

ComUtoR

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It is hypothetical because you have no legal relationship with any train company relevant to travelling on Tuesday, if you have not purchased a ticket which would entitle you to make that journey.

So everything is based on the ticket purchased ? and not the desire to travel ?

It might theoretically be different if you had purchased a ticket - and more so if you’d received a booked itinerary - before the revised timetable was published. But that’s not the actual situation.

Following on from above. This is entirely dependent on having a booked ticket or not ?

Since that is not the situation you cannot create a way to force a train company into agreeing a contract with you to perform a service they know they won’t be able to provide.

I was totally looking for a loophole. Thank you for confirming.

simply put, they never committed to conveying you so they’re not on the hook for the fact that you’ve been inconvenienced.

What about in the interest of 'Customer Service?'
 

ComUtoR

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I don't doubt the journey is being made, but it's hypothetical in the sense that the timetable has already been changed so it's no longer possible to buy a ticket on the basis of a pre-strike-alterations timetable.

As I travel on a walk up and go basis; does this change my rights with compensation etc ?


Given that the Elizabeth line provides a direct option to Heathrow at much less expense, I would have said this is the limit of where a taxi could be claimed to. Equally, if there are cheaper coach or bus options that would not take unreasonably long, those should also be considered.

I appreciate that. Taxi is my only option but I will consider that direct to the Lizzy connection is reasonable. Thank you.


It would take too long to describe them all in detail here; is there any particular right you'd like to know more about?

Just in general. I tend to suck it up and manage my own expectations and personal responsibilities. I was wondering where I stood (and others travelling) from the perspective of reducing my costs and the TOCs liabilities.

In theory the principles described there would apply in the same way here, however you have not bought a ticket yet and (as per below) if you are reliant on staff travel facilities your pass is unlikely to fall under the Consumer Rights Act, which is what a lot of your rights would rely on.

Because I am staff. Does that mean my Consumer Rights are somehow lessened ?


Unfortunately you have probably left it too late to get any of your expenses back from the railway.

I am not the only one travelling but I think I can accept my position as staff and using a turn up and go facility.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If you normally get rail travel for free, you can hardly claim to be a customer.


I am prepared to accept quite a lot and as an internal I understand what goes wrong on a regular basis and I am prepared to suck it up. However, I am, and always will be, a customer. Why should I get screwed because I'm internal ?
 

Starmill

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It would never be possible to do this. The cause of the delay or cancellation of services wouldn't have an effect, it's simply a question of what you were told when you paid for (or gave some other consideration for) the ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Because I am staff. Does that mean my Consumer Rights are somehow lessened ?
No. The law cannot apply differently to different people in this way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Why should I get screwed because I'm internal ?
Unhappily for everyone, you're actually being treated by the company precisely the same as everyone else is.
 

ComUtoR

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It would never be possible to do this. The cause of the delay or cancellation of services wouldn't have an effect, it's simply a question of what you were told when you paid for (or gave some other consideration for) the ticket.

I am often at odds with this. I 'can't' buy a ticket because its already baked in as 'free' so I don't get advances or iterinaries* because I turn up and go. Would this be different if I used the RDG website to book a staff ticket ?


*no idea how to spell it. Apologies in advance.
 

Starmill

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I am often at odds with this. I 'can't' buy a ticket because its already baked in as 'free' so I don't get advances or iterinaries* because I turn up and go. Would this be different if I used the RDG website to book a staff ticket ?


*no idea how to spell it. Apologies in advance.
I can't say as I don't know on what terms your travel facilitie(s) were granted. If you paid for a ticket, however, then it's unambiguous that consideration (i.e. something for something, a necessary element for the contract to exist) is being given at that time of payment.
 

ComUtoR

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I can't say as I don't know on what terms your travel facilitie(s) were granted. If you paid for a ticket, however, then it's unambiguous that consideration (i.e. something for something, a necessary element for the contract to exist) is being given at that time of payment.

So my ticket, being 'free' isn't subject to the usual rights and considerations of normal passengers. My travel companion will have their rights determined on what tickets they have purchased. My reasonable travel options for claiming a taxi would be based on getting the 'cheapest option' and not the most convenient, and...

Customer service inconvenience is completely down to the TOCs generosity ?

Does that all sound solid ?
 

HamworthyGoods

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Evening all,

Knowing that there are strikes and rest day working bans next week. Can I book a trip and get an itinerary and then claim compensation; knowing in advance it will all go horribly wrong ?

Am I entitled to compensation because I have been inconvenienced ? or would I be entitled to a taxi because the TOC cannot, and will not be able to get me to my destination ?

Trip details : Kent > Heathrow
Travel Day : Strike Day
Ticket : Not purchased yet

Can I purchase a ticket and be able to claim the costs back, effectively getting free travel ?

Cheers in advance

Where in Kent are you looking to travel from?
 

ComUtoR

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Where in Kent are you looking to travel from?

The plan was to get to Abbey Wood and get the Lizzy to Heathrow. With SE on strike I need to get to Abbey Wood by an alternative means. (no bus link)

My companion (not staff) was making their own way there but has a plethora of options as they live more central. They may come down to me the day before and we could go together or we make our own way to Heathrow. All pre planning is now out the window and we are looking for options. All pre planned tickets are in the bin. (not mine as I was relining on turn up and go)
 

Watershed

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So everything is based on the ticket purchased ? and not the desire to travel ?
Following on from above. This is entirely dependent on having a booked ticket or not ?
Essentially, yes. A desire to travel doesn't represent a contract; the timetable in place when booking is the basis of when/how you can expect to be conveyed.

As I travel on a walk up and go basis; does this change my rights with compensation etc ?
Unfortunately yes, since if there are no advertised trains when you buy your ticket, the railway is effectively not offering you anything. This is why it can often be advantageous to buy your ticket ahead of time.

Just in general. I tend to suck it up and manage my own expectations and personal responsibilities. I was wondering where I stood (and others travelling) from the perspective of reducing my costs and the TOCs liabilities.
Ok, I think I've hopefully gone over all the main points in relation to alternative transport.

Because I am staff. Does that mean my Consumer Rights are somehow lessened ?
Purely for being a member of staff, no. But if you are using free travel facilities granted by virtue of your employment it is difficult to establish that you are a 'consumer' for the purposes of the Consumer Rights Act - bearing in mind the definition, which is anyone who is acting mainly or wholly outside their profession or employment.

If you're using paid (but discounted) travel facilities I would have said it is a bit more of a grey area.

Would this be different if I used the RDG website to book a staff ticket ?
As above, I think it's more likely that your consumer rights would be engaged under these circumstances (having paid something) but I think this could be a contested point. Even if you were not able to rely on the Consumer Rights Act, you would undoubtedly be able to rely on the NRCoT and PRO, which in these circumstances effectively grant you the same rights.
 

Starmill

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If you're using paid (but discounted) travel facilities I would have said it is a bit more of a grey area.
It's an interesting question. Part of me can see the shades of grey, and another part of me says that if you paid for a ticket, even one at a deep discount, then you must have paid for something. It clearly can't be described as a business to business relationship, either, because the train company can't transform into a client just because of the discount terms. But then also there are a few more shades of grey in exactly which discount is actually being used too.
 
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