Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

[Acfb]

Tony Lloyd has died so assuming there is no snap GE, Rochdale will be the next by election after Kingswood and Wellingborough.

On the face of it it should be very safe for Labour but is the sort of constituency that constituents will have strong views on Palestine and Galloway might cause trouble there like he did in Batley and Spen. Labour might have issues with candidate selection.

 

[geoffk]

Tony Lloyd has died so assuming there is no snap GE, Rochdale will be the next by election after Kingswood and Wellingborough.

On the face of it it should be very safe for Labour but is the sort of constituency that constituents will have strong views on Palestine and Galloway might cause trouble there like he did in Batley and Spen. Labour might have issues with candidate selection.

Sorry to read this as Tony was MP for a few years. Yes, a large Muslim electorate will make things interesting. As well as Gaza, the Rochdale child abuse scandal has made the headlines again. The seat was of course held by the Liberals/Liberal Democrats from 1972 to 1997, mostly by an MP whose name we now rarely mention.....

 

[brad465]

Tony Lloyd has died so assuming there is no snap GE, Rochdale will be the next by election after Kingswood and Wellingborough.

On the face of it it should be very safe for Labour but is the sort of constituency that constituents will have strong views on Palestine and Galloway might cause trouble there like he did in Batley and Spen. Labour might have issues with candidate selection.

Galloway is a candidate for London Mayor this year, he can't stand in Rochdale or any other seat without either creating a huge backlash for trying to occupy 2 positions at once (in opposing parts of the country), or withdrawing from the Mayoral election to contest the by-election, which looks like petty opportunism and not appearing committed to a particular local area/region.

 

[Taunton]

As well as Gaza, the Rochdale child abuse scandal has made the headlines again. The seat was of course held by the Liberals/Liberal Democrats from 1972 to 1997, mostly by an MP whose name we now rarely mention.....

Maybe he set the style for the more recent scandal ...

 

[Acfb]

Sorry to read this as Tony was MP for a few years. Yes, a large Muslim electorate will make things interesting. As well as Gaza, the Rochdale child abuse scandal has made the headlines again. The seat was of course held by the Liberals/Liberal Democrats from 1972 to 1997, mostly by an MP whose name we now rarely mention.....

Yes, Rochdale has had some strange MPs. I was surprised to Tony Lloyd wanted to be an MP again in 2017 but was perhaps a unity candidate at short notice. C**** S**** crossed my mind recently as I saw David Steel waiting for the X95 bus a few weeks ago and was the reason he recently had to leave the house of Lords.

 

[Busaholic]

Galloway is a candidate for London Mayor this year, he can't stand in Rochdale or any other seat without either creating a huge backlash for trying to occupy 2 positions at once (in opposing parts of the country), or withdrawing from the Mayoral election to contest the by-election, which looks like petty opportunism and not appearing committed to a particular local area/region.

Opportunism?! Gorgeous George?! Wash your mouth out with soap and water!

 

[nw1]

I doubt Galloway would appeal to a majority of people who have strong sympathy towards Palestine or the residents of Gaza.

I have a lot of sympathy towards the residents of Gaza and Palestine in general, and consider Netanyahu's actions an outrage, but - put it this way - as a non-Tory voter I would vote for Ken Clarke every time in a straight contest between him and Galloway. Controversially, and I know others disagree, I would place Galloway firmly on the right of the political spectrum. Consorting with Farage, for one; no true left-winger would do that.

So if he thinks he can be opportunist I suspect he's very much mistaken.

 

[Gloster]

I doubt Galloway would appeal to a majority of people who have strong sympathy towards Palestine or the residents of Gaza.

I have a lot of sympathy towards the residents of Gaza and Palestine in general, and consider Netanyahu's actions an outrage, but - put it this way - as a non-Tory voter I would vote for Ken Clarke every time in a straight contest between him and Galloway. Controversially, and I know others disagree, I would place Galloway firmly on the right of the political spectrum. Consorting with Farage, for one; no true left-winger would do that.

So if he thinks he can be opportunist I suspect he's very much mistaken.

Galloway is not right or left. He is only on one side: his own. The problem is that he is very good at talking the talk for long enough to cause trouble.

 

[Busaholic]

Controversially, and I know others disagree, I would place Galloway firmly on the right of the political spectrum. Consorting with Farage, for one; no true left-winger would do that.

I have a term for it, left wing fascism, of which I'd say he's a proponent. He's recently appeared on GB News being interviewed by Neil Oliver, another Scotsman with a huge chip on his shoulder. Mind you, Farage's chip is so big McCain's are rumoured to be making a bid for it. Detestable man, loathed him since being a near neighbour forty years ago.

 

[renegademaster]

Respect was basically "British Muslim interests party" , not derived much from the british left but its own thing. Lot of opputurnist trots using it as a vehicle but its voters arent left wing

 

[Kite159]

Tony Lloyd has died so assuming there is no snap GE, Rochdale will be the next by election after Kingswood and Wellingborough.

On the face of it it should be very safe for Labour but is the sort of constituency that constituents will have strong views on Palestine and Galloway might cause trouble there like he did in Batley and Spen. Labour might have issues with candidate selection.

Isn't there normally a case of when a MP dies in office the other major parties don't put up a candidate in the by election as a mark of respect for the former MP?

So would it will be Labour Vs any of the fringe parties who decide to stand?

 

[JamesT]

Isn't there normally a case of when a MP dies in office the other major parties don't put up a candidate in the by election as a mark of respect for the former MP?

So would it will be Labour Vs any of the fringe parties who decide to stand?

The other parties didn't field opposition for replacing Jo Cox and David Amess, but they were murdered rather than dying of natural causes. I don't believe there's a general convention to stand aside.

 

[Mag_seven]

I don't believe there's a general convention to stand aside.

There isn't as a recent check of two by-elections where the sitting MP died of natural causes (Old Bexley and Sidcup and Birmingham Erdington) shows a full field of candidates from the main parties and others.

 

[Gloster]

Isn't there normally a case of when a MP dies in office the other major parties don't put up a candidate in the by election as a mark of respect for the former MP?

So would it will be Labour Vs any of the fringe parties who decide to stand?

No, even after a death a by-election will be fought normally: this would probably be the case if the MP was murdered for a reason totally unconnected to their MP’s duties. It is, as said, only when an MP has been murdered for a reason connected to their MP’s role that the other parties decline to stand.

 

[Busaholic]

No, even after a death a by-election will be fought normally: this would probably be the case if the MP was murdered for a reason totally unconnected to their MP’s duties. It is, as said, only when an MP has been murdered for a reason connected to their MP’s role that the other parties decline to stand.

In the 'good old days' almost every by-election was due to the death of the MP concerned; and I don't recollect any such where the other parties didn't stand except in the case of Jo Cox and David Amess. Even in those two cases, some candidates stood against the Labour and Conservative ones respectively. I suspect that if an MP was obviously murdered, whatever the circumstances, there would not be a properly-contested by-election. Sometimes of course, e.g. in the case of Stephen Milligan, it may not be immediately apparent whether foul play was involved.

 

[Gloster]

In the 'good old days' almost every by-election was due to the death of the MP concerned; and I don't recollect any such where the other parties didn't stand except in the case of Jo Cox and David Amess. Even in those two cases, some candidates stood against the Labour and Conservative ones respectively. I suspect that if an MP was obviously murdered, whatever the circumstances, there would not be a properly-contested by-election. Sometimes of course, e.g. in the case of Stephen Milligan, it may not be immediately apparent whether foul play was involved.

The two previous murders of English (*) politicians by terrorists were Ian Gow and Sir Anthony Berry, and all three parties stood there; Airey Neave was just before the 1979 election, so there wasn’t a by-election.

* - I am excluding the Rev. Robert Bradford as that was Northern Ireland.

 

[Busaholic]

The two previous murders of English (*) politicians by terrorists were Ian Gow and Sir Anthony Berry, and all three parties stood there; Airey Neave was just before the 1979 election, so there wasn’t a by-election.

* - I am excluding the Rev. Robert Bradford as that was Northern Ireland.

Interesting. Berry wasn't specifically targeted, of course, and his death was not the only one that night. So much has changed since those days: if such an event took place now, the whole of Brighton or wherever would be cordoned off for days and the PM would be spirited off. Thatcher, of course, had rhino skin and some personal courage, regardless of her less attractive attributes. Nobody would accuse her of being 'touchy-feely.'

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Things have taken an interesting turn in Rochdale, with the Labour candidate Azhar Ali having been recorded expressing a conspiracy theory that Israel had (implied: deliberately) allowed the 7 October Hamas killings - remarks which of course many people are interpreting as anti-Semitic. Labour has expelled or suspended people in the recent past for comparable remarks, but unusually on this occasion are standing by their man. I would assume that's mostly because it's too late to change candidate, so if they don't stand by him, they simply don't have a candidate in the by-election.

With the election just over 2 weeks away, I imagine the controversy is not going to help their campaign - although there's already some risk of an upset, with George Galloway standing for the so-called 'workers party' in a constituency that, according to Conservative Muslim Forum, is 23.6% Muslim. Rochdale used to be held by the LibDems long ago, but I get the impression the LibDems aren't making any serious effort this time round. My own instinct is that Labour will still win the by-election, but it won't be with the massive swing we've seen elsewhere - and they'll probably quietly de-select their new MP before the general election.

BBC report:

Labour has defended standing by its candidate in the Rochdale by-election, despite his remarks about Israel.
Shadow minister Nick Thomas-Symonds told the BBC Azhar Ali's comments were "completely and utterly unacceptable".
However, he said the prospective MP understood the "gravity of the offence that has been caused" and had "unreservedly apologised".
The Conservatives are urging Labour to suspend Mr Ali from the party and stop campaigning for him in Rochdale.
Party chair Richard Holden said: "If Labour won't do that, the public will see that Labour is happy to run antisemitic candidates to attract racist votes and is therefore unfit to play a leading role in our nation's affairs."
Mr Ali is alleged to have told a Labour party meeting that Israel had "allowed" the deadly attack by Hamas gunmen on 7 October.
It is too late for Labour to withdraw Mr Ali as their candidate and replace him with someone else as the deadline passed on 2 February.

 

[uglymonkey]

Any criticism of the state of Israel, is always implied to be antisemitic, which cuts the debate down.

 

[najaB]

Things have taken an interesting turn in Rochdale, with the Labour candidate Azhar Ali having been recorded expressing a conspiracy theory that Israel had (implied: deliberately) allowed the 7 October Hamas killings - remarks which of course many people are interpreting as anti-Semitic.

On a point of order: given that we have documented evidence that the Israeli border observers reported seeing preparations being made in the weeks leading up to the attack, in the form of an Internet chat group used by the observers, this goes slightly beyond your garden variety conspiracy theory.

That they knew preparations were being made is fact, what we don't know is why they didn't act on that knowledge. The most likely explanation is that they mis-read the scale of the attack and thought that they would be able to stop it easily.

 

[brad465]

Any criticism of the state of Israel, is always implied to be antisemitic, which cuts the debate down.

The problem is that Labour were dogged by anti-Semitism for so long, even if that wasn't actually anti-Semitism in some cases, that they have to tread really carefully, especially with an election being imminent. In the short term Labour will have to play it safe, in the long term a move to try and distinguish anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism/criticism of the Israeli government needs to be broadly pursued. The current conflict might be making this easier, given that the Israeli government are going so over the top that even the US and UK governments are having to tell Israel to tone down their actions.

With the election just over 2 weeks away, I imagine the controversy is not going to help their campaign - although there's already some risk of an upset, with George Galloway standing for the so-called 'workers party' in a constituency that, according to Conservative Muslim Forum, is 23.6% Muslim. Rochdale used to be held by the LibDems long ago, but I get the impression the LibDems aren't making any serious effort this time round. My own instinct is that Labour will still win the by-election, but it won't be with the massive swing we've seen elsewhere - and they'll probably quietly de-select their new MP before the general election.

BBC report:

The odds are still in Labour's favour but they have lengthened, the Tories are well out of it, but Galloway is 2nd favourite. Galloway is very much an opportunist/grifter, he's running here and for London Mayor at the same time (he's nowhere near in contention for this contest), if he wins I wouldn't be surprised if he abandons the constituency in the GE, or at least doesn't win it again.

 

[edwin_m]

Any criticism of the state of Israel, is always implied to be antisemitic, which cuts the debate down.

It's not technically even criticism of the state, it's criticism of the actions of the government. I agree with @brad465 they need to treat it very carefully though, despite that possible distinction. But they still seem to be sticking by Azhar Ali, including Louise Ellman who temporarily left the party after antisemitic abuse, and says this candidate has always been supportive of her.

Azhar Ali: Labour defends standing by Rochdale by-election candidate

Nick Thomas-Symonds says Azhar Ali's words were "unacceptable" but Labour will still campaign for him.

www.bbc.co.uk

Dame Louise quit Labour in 2019 over a "growth of antisemitism" in the party, but re-joined in 2021, saying she was "confident" party leader Sir Keir Starmer was tackling the issue.
On Sunday, she wrote on X, that Mr Ali's comments had been "out of character".
"I have known Azhar for over twenty years and he consistently supported me when I was subjected to antisemitic attacks.
"He should now have the opportunity to work with the Jewish community to restore the loss of trust his actions have caused."

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Labour have now dropped Azhar Ali as their Rochdale candidate, and suspended him from the party. As there is no longer time to replace him, they have essentially withdrawn from the by-election. What a mess.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68280098

Labour says it has “withdrawn support” for Rochdale by-election candidate Azhar Ali after his comments on Israel.
The BBC understands Mr Ali has been suspended from Labour pending an investigation.
The party said the decision was taken after "new information about further comments" by Mr Ali came to light. Earlier on Monday, Labour had defended standing by him as a candidate.
It is too late for the party to replace Mr Ali as its candidate.
He is alleged to have told a Labour party meeting that Israel had "allowed" the deadly attack by Hamas gunmen on 7 October.
After the comments came to light, Mr Ali apologised "to Jewish leaders for my inexcusable comments".
Labour has faced intense pressure since the remarks surfaced, with widespread condemnation from party members and political rivals.
Withdrawing support for Mr Ali will come as a blow to Labour, who had initially stood by him as the candidate to take over as MP for Rochdale after the death Sir Tony Lloyd.
Frontbenchers Lisa Nandy and Anneliese Dodds had been out campaigning for Mr Ali in the constituency at the weekend.
Shadow minister Nick Thomas-Symonds had also been sent out to defend Labour's decision to back Mr Ali on Monday morning.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that the comments were "completely and utterly unacceptable" but suggested Mr Ali understood the "gravity of the offence that has been caused" and had "unreservedly apologised".
Prime Minister Rishi Sunak accused Labour of only withdrawing support for Mr Ali due to "enormous media pressure".
"That's not principled", Mr Sunak said.

 

[Gloster]

Labour have now dropped Azhar Ali as their Rochdale candidate, and suspended him from the party. As there is no longer time to replace him, they have essentially withdrawn from the by-election. What a mess.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68280098

Probably the best option in the situation, even if they lose the by-election. They may get all sorts of criticism, but they can at least avoid the usual smears about Starmer being soft on anti-semitism and not in control of the party. With an election so close the hostile parts of the media (most of it) would have had a field-day: they will still throw all sorts of criticism at Labour and Starmer, but they can no longer demand that he makes the candidate stand down.

 

[edwin_m]

If they were going to do this they should have done it as soon as the story broke. Now they just look like giving way to pressure rather than acting on principle.

 

[brad465]

If they were going to do this they should have done it as soon as the story broke. Now they just look like giving way to pressure rather than acting on principle.

My thoughts too, Labour's biggest weakness at the moment is comms.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Labour have now dropped Azhar Ali as their Rochdale candidate, and suspended him from the party. As there is no longer time to replace him, they have essentially withdrawn from the by-election. What a mess.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68280098

Labour have been behind the curve from the outset of Israeli action and we have Cameron now calling for a ceasefire which Labour should been doing months ago so they differentiated themselves from the Tories now no doubt they will just rock up and support whatever Sunak says next.

 

[najaB]

Labour have been behind the curve from the outset of Israeli action and we have Cameron now calling for a ceasefire which Labour should been doing months ago...

Thing is, the UK government has zero influence over what the Israelis do and the opposition has even less than that.

Probably the only foreign power that they'll listen to is the USA.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thing is, the UK government has zero influence over what the Israelis do and the opposition has even less than that.

Probably the only foreign power that they'll listen to is the USA.

Of course but its about Labour differentiating its position. Its become over invested in trying to restore its anti-Semite credentials against looking at the bigger picture and its suppression of the shadow cabinet from speaking out is becoming a little too dictatorial for me.

 

[Busaholic]

Starmer's done the right thing; otherwise, people might have asked ''why shouldn't Corbyn regain the Labour whip and stand for them at the next General Election?'' The Tories are furious with this, of course, because they wanted to attack Labour as being unprincipled, or hypocritical, or something else they see when they look in the mirror. That mini-Mosley Galloway will be in his element, naturally, and probably looking out his best gangster uniform for the election night count, which will probably be the most rowdy in recent years regardless of the result.