Northern Ireland Railways 450 class

[geoffk]

There is a reference in one of the latest mags to possible interest in these demus by a British train operator, once NIR get their new units and the 450s are withdrawn.

The 450 class is a cousin of the Southern Region "thumpers", but with class 150 type bodyshell. There are nine three-car units.

Apart from the need for regauging, the main problems seem to be that they would be completely non-standard, and also that they have separate underframes so may not meet current crashworthiness standards. Having never run on Network Rail they will not have Grandfather Rights.

Anyone know more? Maybe the interest is just as a source of spares.

Geoff

 

[Csalem]

It was reported on an Irish Railway News that FGW management inspected the units before Christmas in York Road.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Apart from the need for regauging, the main problems seem to be that they would be completely non-standard, and also that they have separate underframes so may not meet current crashworthiness standards. Having never run on Network Rail they will not have Grandfather Rights.

Another problem is that they are knackered. They can also make children cry, which while appealing to some members of this forum, is not really an attribute desirable in a modern railway

 

[Nonsense]

I would love that. Would be a great reason for Hornby to do a RTR model too for both UK and Irish markets.

Would also be intrigued to see how TOPS would classify it. Is there a class 450 in TOPS?

 

[jopsuk]

Yes. They're SWT's outer suburban Desiro units.

In the unlikely event that they do get brought to Great Britain, I'd have thought they would get classified in the 2xx range- perhaps "250"?

 

[4SRKT]

They're DEMUs so would certainly be on TOPS in the 2xx range.

To get you all salivating and writing to First to persuade them to buy these sets, here's a couple of shots of the 452 'Olderfleet Castle' set when brand new that I took in the summer of 1986.

 

[GM078]

Apart from the need for regauging, the main problems seem to be that they would be completely non-standard, and also that they have separate underframes so may not meet current crashworthiness standards. Having never run on Network Rail they will not have Grandfather Rights.

Indeed, they'd probably be regarded as "new trains" like any other vehicle type introduced to the system. Despite being a mkIII type bodyshell I doubt they would be given the same crash-worthiness rating as other mkIII derived stock, especially given that they run on old mk1 (50-60 year old?) underframes. Given that their power units will be soon pushing 50 years old would it really be worth the effort anyway?

I've sometimes wondered why they got the "450" designation to begin with, it seemed out of sequence compared to the other NIR railcar types (70, 80), though granted the '90' sequence would already have been used by some 80 class power cars.

 

[Csalem]

This article from the IRRS says the units were based on the bodyshell of the BR 455, so maybe it was just decided to follow that number convention. It may have helped to make them sound modern also.
http://www.irrs.ie/Common Files/NIR.htm

Bit like the C3k class. 3000 series does not fit in with the rest of the NIR series at all.

 

[4SRKT]

Bit like the C3k class. 3000 series does not fit in with the rest of the NIR series at all.

Although NIR numbers now have to be 4 digits to fit on the Ulsterbus computer system, so 3000 series is fine from that POV.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I can't think why there would be interest in anything but running them. They would be useless for spairs unless either Hastings Diesels or one of the preserved railways with a Thumper took an engine or two. Other than that they have nothing in common with anything in the UK in terms of useful parts.

Sounds like a common sence idea to cover the stock shortage in the UK, so will never happen.

 

[IanXC]

Yes. They're SWT's outer suburban Desiro units.

In the unlikely event that they do get brought to Great Britain, I'd have thought they would get classified in the 2xx range- perhaps "250"?

I would have thought it would make more sense for them to be numbered into the 21x range, given their age and what they are related to. I'd choose 211.

 

[Helvellyn]

Why did NIR go for the hybrid rebuilt with the 450s, when there was in effect a BREL new-build model available in the Class 210 (albeit that could have been updated with the Class 317/2 style cab rather than the Class 317/1 stlye cab of the Class 210s).

 

[4SRKT]

Why did NIR go for the hybrid rebuilt with the 450s, when there was in effect a BREL new-build model available in the Class 210 (albeit that could have been updated with the Class 317/2 style cab rather than the Class 317/1 stlye cab of the Class 210s).

No money. The 450 class was the last gasp of a grand old Irish tradition of recycling. The trailer cars from the 70 class DEMUs whose traction equipment was salvaged for the 450s were themselves largely rebuilds of NCC steam-hauled carriages.

The 70 class were only 20 years old when the last one was withdrawn in 1986, but due to being riddled with asbestos, plus the fact the many of the trailers were very old, they needed replacing. The traction equipment was refurbished and has now been running in the 450s for longer than it did in the 70s. I guess as well as being cheaper there was something to be said for a very small fleet such as NIR's being standardised (the 80 class DEMUs are mechanically identical).

 

[jopsuk]

Why did NIR go for the hybrid rebuilt with the 450s, when there was in effect a BREL new-build model available in the Class 210 (albeit that could have been updated with the Class 317/2 style cab rather than the Class 317/1 stlye cab of the Class 210s).

one would suggest that had they gone new-build that the class 150 would perhaps have been more suitable

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Any stock is better than nothing, especially 3-coaches! It will ease pressure, which definately comes before comfort these days.

 

[ainsworth74]

Any stock is better than nothing, especially 3-coaches!

Well more like 2 and a 1/3 coaches as the engine room (bay?) takes up quite a lot of room on the DM vehicle. But certainly extra capacity is always good I don't think the 450s are an answer for the reasons that others have pointed out above.

 

[NXEA!]

Well more like 2 and a 1/3 coaches as the engine room (bay?) takes up quite a lot of room on the DM vehicle. But certainly extra capacity is always good I don't think the 450s are an answer for the reasons that others have pointed out above.

I agree for the most part with you there. However I think they could be the answer in the short term with overcrowding issues. Providing the re-gauging, a mechanical overhaul and interior refresh doesn't come to too large a sum, they could be a cheap way to boost capacity, for the likes of Northern and FGW, which could in turn displace units to ATW and EMT. However I would only like to see them used for a maximum of 10 years until the DfT is in such a financial state it can afford to fork out millions for new trains, as mechanically they are quite old. Plus they've got to meet crash-worthiness standards anyway.

 

[4SRKT]

Regauging shouldn't be a massive issue if you can get some second hand bogies from class 73s for the power cars and some second hand B4s for the trailers.

 

[Helvellyn]

No money. The 450 class was the last gasp of a grand old Irish tradition of recycling. The trailer cars from the 70 class DEMUs whose traction equipment was salvaged for the 450s were themselves largely rebuilds of NCC steam-hauled carriages.

The 70 class were only 20 years old when the last one was withdrawn in 1986, but due to being riddled with asbestos, plus the fact the many of the trailers were very old, they needed replacing. The traction equipment was refurbished and has now been running in the 450s for longer than it did in the 70s. I guess as well as being cheaper there was something to be said for a very small fleet such as NIR's being standardised (the 80 class DEMUs are mechanically identical).

So why not adapt the old Southern Region tradition of recycling? They went for new build Class 442/455 units but with recycled traction equipment. Putting Mk 3 style bodies on Mk 1 frames seems odd, even if they did want to recycle the engines and traction motors. I can't imagine it'd have been that much cheaper to do what they did then use fully new build bodies/bogies.

 

[4SRKT]

So why not adapt the old Southern Region tradition of recycling? They went for new build Class 442/455 units but with recycled traction equipment. Putting Mk 3 style bodies on Mk 1 frames seems odd, even if they did want to recycle the engines and traction motors. I can't imagine it'd have been that much cheaper to do what they did then use fully new build bodies/bogies.

The bogies were new build. I suppose overall it must have been cheaper or they wouldn't have done it.