20mph in Wales, change to bus timetables?

[Howardh]

Any routes have significant lengthening of their scheduled times due to not being able to go at 30?

 

[508-111]

Any routes have significant lengthening of their scheduled times due to not being able to go at 30?

Probably not because, from what I have heard, they are keeping to schedule just fine. I'm not sure about longer routes but I know normal routes and express routes are fine.

 

[Dai Corner]

Newport Transport and Cardiff Bus made extensive changes to their timetables from 3 September in anticipation of the 20mph limits.

For example NT's 35/36 only operate part of the route off-peak. There is now lots of interworking which can obviously lead to delays to one route affecting others.

The jointly run 30 Cardiff-Newport used to be half-hourly Mon-Sat but is now all over the place Mon-Fri and only hourly on Saturday.

Stagecoach X15 is a long urban route between Newport and Brynmawr. I don't think the timetable has changed but it's often been running 10-30 mins late.

 

[daodao]

The jointly run 30 Cardiff-Newport used to be half-hourly Mon-Sat but is now all over the place Mon-Fri and only hourly on Saturday.

I used route 30 quite often 25-30 years ago when working at Cardiff Royal Infirmary and doing some afternoon clinics at the Gwent (Royal Gwent Hospital, Newport). The frequency was every 20 minutes and the Metro Scania DDs ran with quite a turn of pace even on the (40 mph) urban sections; the journey took about 30 minutes. The current timetable indicates that this journey time would now be of the order of 45-47 minutes on weekday daytimes, with the end-to-end journey time (Newport bus station to the Cardiff terminus) now being up to 67 minutes (and at least 54 minutes even on Sundays). Imposing 20 mph speed limits on major arterial roads has clearly had an adverse effect on urban and interurban bus journey times, resulting in slower and less frequent (and thus less attractive) services.

 

[AdamWW]

Newport Transport and Cardiff Bus made extensive changes to their timetables from 3 September in anticipation of the 20mph limits.

For example NT's 35/36 only operate part of the route off-peak. There is now lots of interworking which can obviously lead to delays to one route affecting others.

The jointly run 30 Cardiff-Newport used to be half-hourly Mon-Sat but is now all over the place Mon-Fri and only hourly on Saturday.

Stagecoach X15 is a long urban route between Newport and Brynmawr. I don't think the timetable has changed but it's often been running 10-30 mins late.

You may know something I don't, but the bus companies are not giving the new 20 mph limits as the primary reason for the timetable changes.

I can see it being a particular issue in the Valleys where the roads run almost continuously through built up areas (which is in other ways great for supporting a bus service rather than having to serve haphazardly placed villages).

 

[Dai Corner]

You may know something I don't, but the bus companies are not giving the new 20 mph limits as the primary reason for the timetable changes.

I can see it being a particular issue in the Valleys where the roads run almost continuously through built up areas (which is in other ways great for supporting a bus service rather than having to serve haphazardly placed villages).

I've read the company websites.it is certainly a reason they've given.

Service Changes From Sunday, September 3

From September 3rd, we are introducing route and timetable changes across the network. Here is what you need to know

www.newportbus.co.uk

In addition, we need to adjust our timetables to take into account the upcoming implementation of the new 20mph speed limit regulation. Over the next six months, we will continue collecting data to monitor the situation and adjust the timetables based on traffic hotspots and customer demand.

September Service Changes

We will be making some timetable and route changes from Sunday 3 September

www.cardiffbus.com

For new timetables we have had to factor in additional journey time as we try and make sure these are robust to navigate the worsened levels of traffic congestion we face. We also need to fully consider the changes that have been made to road layouts, loss of highway and junction capacity for bus movements, as well as preparation for new speed limits that affect journey times.

 

[AdamWW]

I've read the company websites.it is certainly a reason they've given.

It is indeed given as a reason but to me your post read as if the major changes were exclusively due to the 20 mph limits.
To me it's clear (particularly from the Cardiff Bus statement) that the changes are primarily due to withdrawal of post-Covid government support.

There has been a lot of misinformation about the introduction of 20 mph speed limits and I would not want people thinking that they had lead to immediate and drastic cuts to bus services in Cardiff and Newport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2023 ==

I used route 30 quite often 25-30 years ago when working at Cardiff Royal Infirmary and doing some afternoon clinics at the Gwent (Royal Gwent Hospital, Newport). The frequency was every 20 minutes and the Metro Scania DDs ran with quite a turn of pace even on the (40 mph) urban sections; the journey took about 30 minutes. The current timetable indicates that this journey time would now be of the order of 45-47 minutes on weekday daytimes, with the end-to-end journey time (Newport bus station to the Cardiff terminus) now being up to 67 minutes (and at least 54 minutes even on Sundays). Imposing 20 mph speed limits on major arterial roads has clearly had an adverse effect on urban and interurban bus journey times, resulting in slower and less frequent (and thus less attractive) services.

Wouldn't a more reasonable comparison be between the previous timetable and the current one, rather than 25 years ago when congestion was less?

 

[Dai Corner]

It is indeed given as a reason but to me your post read as if the major changes were exclusively due to the 20 mph limits.
To me it's clear (particularly from the Cardiff Bus statement) that the changes are primarily due to withdrawal of post-Covid government support.

There has been a lot of misinformation about the introduction of 20 mph speed limits and I would not want people thinking that they had lead to immediate and drastic cuts to bus services in Cardiff and Newport.

Fair comment, and it wasn't my intention to mislead. The cuts to support coming around the same time as the new speed limits was a double whammy for bus operators though. I think Cardiff have reduced the limits on several of their urban dual carriageways from 40 to 30 too.

It would be interesting to know whether PVRs and/or driver establishment numbers have been reduced or whether the reductions are purely down to increased congestion and reduced speed limits.

 

[AdamWW]

Fair comment, and it wasn't my intention to mislead.

Fair enough. I often find what I've written isn't the model of clarity I thought it was.

It would be interesting to know whether PVRs and/or driver establishment numbers have been reduced or whether the reductions are purely down to increased congestion and reduced speed limits.

Yes that would be interesting. It could be worked out from the Bustimes web site but I think it would have been much easier if someone had looked at the number of vehicles on a given route on a day before and after the changes rather than trying to figure it out now from historical information on what routes a given bus has worked.

(Added): Of course the vehicle requirement for the routes that no longer run has dropped to zero...

But if the changes are all down to congestion and reduced speed limits etc. it would be somewhat disingeneous of the bus companies to blame the changes primarily on reductions in financial support.

 

[Bikeman78]

I used route 30 quite often 25-30 years ago when working at Cardiff Royal Infirmary and doing some afternoon clinics at the Gwent (Royal Gwent Hospital, Newport). The frequency was every 20 minutes and the Metro Scania DDs ran with quite a turn of pace even on the (40 mph) urban sections; the journey took about 30 minutes.

I think it was every 20 minutes until Covid. Perhaps half hourly on Saturdays. I hadn't realised that it had become so poor.

 

[Llandudno]

Arriva Buses Wales have introduced revised timetables in north Wales following reviewing the impact of the introduction of 20mph speed limits in most built up areas in Wales.

There are numerous examples of cuts in frequency, increased running times and some slight adjustments to routes with examples like Llandudno Junction station not being served by Route 13 and the village bus stop in Penrhynside no longer being served by any buses.

Are there any other areas of Wales where services have been cut owing to the lowering of speed limits?

Without being too political. It’s a shame that this blanket policy to reduce car speeds in attempt to cut carbon emissions and improve road safety is having a negative knock on for bus patronage and may actually lead to an increase car usage, thereby defeating the object…?

 

[Gloster]

An article on my Yahoo news feed, which doesn’t permit links, from the Daily Telegraph about the village of Llandegla, between Wrexham and Ruthin, losing its bus service due to the 20 mph limit (all part of the Telegraph policy of opposing the limit for various reasons). Accompanied by a photo of a (Crosville?) green P-suffix registered Bristol LH (or LHS), complete with National Bus Company arrow on the grille.

 

[higthomas]

Arriva Buses Wales have introduced revised timetables in north Wales following reviewing the impact of the introduction of 20mph speed limits in most built up areas in Wales.

I caught the 12 recently on a weekday daytime, and about half the journey seemed to be waiting time, and that was before they get even slower timetabled. Seems and over reaction to me

 

[TheSel]

An article on my Yahoo news feed, which doesn’t permit links, from the Daily Telegraph about the village of Llandegla, between Wrexham and Ruthin, losing its bus service due to the 20 mph limit (all part of the Telegraph policy of opposing the limit for various reasons). Accompanied by a photo of a (Crosville?) green P-suffix registered Bristol LH (or LHS), complete with National Bus Company arrow on the grille.

Here's a version of that story from the 'Wrexham Leader' (local newspaper) website:

Llandegla villagers to host public meeting over axed bus​

A DECISION to axe a bus service from the village of Llandegla has sparked outrage among residents.

A public meeting has been arranged following Arriva Cymru's decision to no longer serve the Tweedmill or the village of Llandegla via its Services 51 and x51, Rhyl to Wrexham, from January 14.

Service 51 will no longer call into Tweedmill and on service x51, Llandegla will no longer be served and the service will remain on A525.

Justifying why the service is being axed, Arriva Wales said "overall" it is taking longer to operate and punctuality has been reduced...

More info in that link.

Nice pic of that Crosville LH (Crosville had none of LHS model) on the Yahoo site, though. Good spot!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Arriva Buses Wales have introduced revised timetables in north Wales following reviewing the impact of the introduction of 20mph speed limits in most built up areas in Wales.

There are numerous examples of cuts in frequency, increased running times and some slight adjustments to routes with examples like Llandudno Junction station not being served by Route 13 and the village bus stop in Penrhynside no longer being served by any buses.

Are there any other areas of Wales where services have been cut owing to the lowering of speed limits?

Without being too political. It’s a shame that this blanket policy to reduce car speeds in attempt to cut carbon emissions and improve road safety is having a negative knock on for bus patronage and may actually lead to an increase car usage, thereby defeating the object…?

To give an alternative viewpoint, is this a bus company using the chance to cut unprofitable services or reduce costs whilst being able to lay the blame elsewhere? After all Wales isn't the only part of the country seeing bus cuts so it can't be all down to the 20mph limit.

I'd also add that, once again, this isn't a blanket policy. There are plenty of roads roads that are still 30mph.

I'd actually be interested to see what percentage of the affected routes have had their speed limit reduced to below the average speed traffic moved at beforehand. I suspect the numbers would surprise some people!

 

[Cambrian359]

To give an alternative viewpoint, is this a bus company using the chance to cut unprofitable services or reduce costs whilst being able to lay the blame elsewhere? After all Wales isn't the only part of the country seeing bus cuts so it can't be all down to the 20mph limit.

I'd also add that, once again, this isn't a blanket policy. There are plenty of roads roads that are still 30mph.

I'd actually be interested to see what percentage of the affected routes have had their speed limit reduced to below the average speed traffic moved at beforehand. I suspect the numbers would surprise some people!

They’ve actually added extra buses into some route pools to allow more resilience, A few other routes have had the odd stop cut to try and counteract delays instead.
Full details - https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-...ktau7RRNBhlGY825glTBuzAyI7BI9xtXDdS_lhtRjizZc

There’s to many links & information on the info page to copy and paste it all.

 

[TheSel]

The Llandegla issue is now being reported here on the BBC Website too.

20mph: Llandegla anger as new limit sees bus route cut​

Villagers say they feel "isolated" and "disconnected" after the cutting of their bus route due to Wales' new 20mph speed limit.

Arriva Wales' X51 bus from Rhyl to Wrexham will no longer stop in the village of Llandegla, Denbighshire.
The firm said the change, which begins on 14 January, was necessary because of "reduced speeds across the network".
"This is unsustainable for village life, we'll feel so disconnected and isolated," said resident Wendy Spiers .

(more on line)

 

[HullRailMan]

Arriva Buses Wales have introduced revised timetables in north Wales following reviewing the impact of the introduction of 20mph speed limits in most built up areas in Wales.

There are numerous examples of cuts in frequency, increased running times and some slight adjustments to routes with examples like Llandudno Junction station not being served by Route 13 and the village bus stop in Penrhynside no longer being served by any buses.

Are there any other areas of Wales where services have been cut owing to the lowering of speed limits?

Without being too political. It’s a shame that this blanket policy to reduce car speeds in attempt to cut carbon emissions and improve road safety is having a negative knock on for bus patronage and may actually lead to an increase car usage, thereby defeating the object…?

This is what happens when generally clueless politicians make decisions based on ideology rather than logic. See covid for a lack of understanding of the wider consequences of a decision.

 

[43055]

The Llandegla issue is now being reported here on the BBC Website too.



(more on line)

Was second on the Jeremy Vine show on radio 2 at lunch time (from around 1235)

Looking at the timetable the X51 has generally a 18 min layover at Wrexham so I do wonder if this is really to do with the 20mph limits.

 

[158756]

Was second on the Jeremy Vine show on radio 2 at lunch time (from around 1235)

Looking at the timetable the X51 has generally a 18 min layover at Wrexham so I do wonder if this is really to do with the 20mph limits.

Arriva have put out an explanation here: https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/explanation-of-arriva’s-changes-to-the-x51-service-in-llandegla

Explanation of Arriva’s changes to the X51 service in Llandegla
A spokesperson for Arriva Wales said:

"The withdrawal of this service in Llandegla is due to the impact of 20mph on the 51 and X51 services. To be clear this is not to say that Llandegla and its speed limits are the issue but now the service overall is taking longer to operate due to reduced speeds across the network.

"The consequences of this change in speed has been severe and has caused increased lost mileage and reduced punctuality. We have been open in raising our concerns with Transport for Wales, the Welsh government and local authorities. There have also been press statements and questions raised in the Senedd about this on the basis of our concerns and the consequences.
"As a response to reducing speed of buses there are these options to reduce frequency: speed up buses by withdrawing the service from an area or increase the amount of resource in the bus service. This service is already operating at a low frequency and there is no funding to support increased resource going into services so we have had to amend the route with the time saved by not operating in the village. This time has been reinvested into the service to help it operate to time. These changes have taken place based upon a review of patronage and estimated time savings.

"As a response to reducing speed of buses there are these options to reduce frequency: speed up buses by withdrawing the service from an area or increase the amount of resource in the bus service. This service is already operating at a low frequency and there is no funding to support increased resource going into services so we have had to amend the route with the time saved by not operating in the village. This time has been reinvested into the service to help it operate to time. These changes have taken place based upon a review of patronage and estimated time savings."

It looks from bus times tracking like the run to Llandegla and back costs 10-15 minutes on a round trip, so that'd be most of the layover time. End to end journey times are staying almost the same so all that time saved from not serving the village is going to slower speeds elsewhere.

 

[markymark2000]

It looks from bus times tracking like the run to Llandegla and back costs 10-15 minutes on a round trip, so that'd be most of the layover time. End to end journey times are staying almost the same so all that time saved from not serving the village is going to slower speeds elsewhere.

How did you work that out? Tracking shows it as a 5-6 minute time penalty.
As for the time redistribution, towards Wrexham is is +1 minute to Pen-y-stryt (Or the main road junction just outside Llandegla), -5 minutes between Pen-y-stryt and Minera Village Bakery. End to end journey time is somehow -3 thought (I can't work out where is gaining a minute).
Towards Denbigh, -7 minutes between Minera Village Bakery and Llandegla Ton-y-nant Gate House, +4 minutes between there and Llasfasi College. +3 minutes between the college and Ruthin (which seems to be more for padding in Ruthin as they already have padding in Ruthin heading towards Wrexham). Of note is the 4 minutes between Ton-y-nant and Llasfasi College considering this area shouldn't have been affected by the 20mph change as that was only to built up areas, the route between these is nothing of the kind.
To keep serving Llandegla would eat into the layover but even based off 6 minutes each way, which is what tracking reliably says, this would still give 6 minutes off in Wrexham, plus 3 minutes off in Ruthin each way. It would be tight but doable. Probably not wise for service reliability though. The time distribution is what interests me on this as it doesn't match what Arriva are saying.

These changes have taken place based upon a review of patronage and estimated time savings."

Arrivas last sentence here is the key one for me and matches my experiences on the X51. The patronage isn't there and by not serving the village, they can save a good 5-6 minutes which is currently a time penalty for very few passengers.

 

[158756]

Arrivas last sentence here is the key one for me and matches my experiences on the X51. The patronage isn't there and by not serving the village, they can save a good 5-6 minutes which is currently a time penalty for very few passengers.

This will be true, if there were more passengers Arriva would have brought in more resources or made cuts somewhere else. But the choice is only necessary because of the new speed limits - the time saved (mostly) isn't speeding up end to end journeys, it's being absorbed by running at 20mph. There isn't enough money in it, and no subsidy is forthcoming, to add an extra bus to the cycle (as Arriva are doing with several other routes in North Wales this month), so either Llandegla gets cut or the frequency of the whole route would have to be reduced. If they're losing mileage with the current timetable reduced turnarounds are not an option.

I agree the changes to the running times don't make much sense. It looks like they've just put a bunch of recovery time in rather than adjusting the running times for each section.

 

[DaveHarries]

From the VOSA Bus Service registrations of Wednesday 10th & Thursday 11th January came the following registrations for changes in South Wales.
T=Timetable change, R=Route change, S=Stopping Place change.

Cardiff Bus, wef 18-Feb-2024:
Routes 4 (R, T), 14 (T), 27 (R, T), 49 & 50 (R, S, T), 52 (T), 57 (T), 61 (T), 92 (T), 94 (T), 95 (T), 96 (T), 101 & 102 (T) & M1 (T)

Stagecoach South Wales, wef 03-Mar-2024:
Newport: 151 (T)
Cwmbran: 1 (T), 6 (T), 7 (T), 21 & X21 (T), X24 (T)

I think these are all probably related to the 20mph limit where the TT changes are concerned although I heard that some may be for revised stopping arrangements in Cardiff City Centre even though the bus station apparently doesn't open for another couple of months or so.

Dave