Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[SuspectUsual]

Out of interest, do you think there are any changes to the law that could usefully be made that would help?

At the very least, a substantial change to the law around private prosecutions

 

[ainsworth74]

At the very least, a substantial change to the law around private prosecutions

Yes I think that's at least part of the answer here. I'm far from convinced that private prosecutions are a power which should be as widely available or at least as unfettered as it is currently. It would be tricky to restrict it too far I'm not sure we really want the CPS prosecuting everything from murder, theft and fraud to dodgy takeaways, fly tipping, health and safety breaches what with their own lack of resources to prosecute effectively what they already do? But equally it feels as if the power is subject to far too little real scrutiny and is just open to abuse on the basis that these organisations are "trustworthy" to act as prosecutors.

I'm not entirely sure what sort of change is required here to balance the varying issues but it certainly feels to me as if private prosecutions brought by individuals (very rare to be fair) and organisations like the Post Office, TOCs, and others should be subject to more oversight.

 

[najaB]

I'm not entirely sure what sort of change is required here to balance the varying issues but it certainly feels to me as if private prosecutions brought by individuals (very rare to be fair) and organisations like the Post Office, TOCs, and others should be subject to more oversight.

But surely the bigger problem isn't that prosecutions were brought, but rather that they were successful with evidence that was dodgy at best. The fact is that UK law hasn't kept pace with changes in technology and the standard of "innocent until proven guilty" is difficult to maintain when most members of the legal profession have no better a standard of computer literacy than the typical office worker, and the laws don't match modern-day reality.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Yes I think that's at least part of the answer here. I'm far from convinced that private prosecutions are a power which should be as widely available or at least as unfettered as it is currently. It would be tricky to restrict it too far I'm not sure we really want the CPS prosecuting everything from murder, theft and fraud to dodgy takeaways, fly tipping, health and safety breaches what with their own lack of resources to prosecute effectively what they already do?

Perhaps a start would be to ban private prosecutions for any offence where imprisonment is a possibility upon conviction?

 

[sor]

Unlike a certain ex MP for Mid Bedfordshire, Chris Skidmore hasn't messed about in sticking to his promise.

https://twitter.com/CSkidmoreUK/status/1744384149962584557

(letter to Jeremy Hunt to ask to be formally appointed to one of the two "crown steward" posts that automatically removes him as an MP, the workaround to not being able to directly resign)

Assuming Hunt doesn't process it that quickly, he will be able to vote against the oil and gas bill tonight

 

[nw1]

Unlike a certain ex MP for Mid Bedfordshire, Chris Skidmore hasn't messed about in sticking to his promise.

https://twitter.com/CSkidmoreUK/status/1744384149962584557

(letter to Jeremy Hunt to ask to be formally appointed to one of the two "crown steward" posts that automatically removes him as an MP, the workaround to not being able to directly resign)

Assuming Hunt doesn't process it that quickly, he will be able to vote against the oil and gas bill tonight

I note that Bone seems to be dragging his heels in applying for said posts too, at least if Wikipedia is accurate (the two honourable personages holding the esteemed Crown Steward and Bailiff posts still being Ms Dorries and Mr Pincher).

 

[sor]

I note that Bone seems to be dragging his heels in applying for said posts too, at least if Wikipedia is accurate (the two honourable personages holding the esteemed Crown Steward and Bailiff posts still being Ms Dorries and Mr Pincher).

Bone doesn't need it. He was removed as soon as the recall petition succeeded. It's now up to party brass ie Sunak to move the election writ (as it will be with Skidmore's seat). If Sunak wasn't desperate to stay in power then there'd be a valid argument to not bother and wait for the May general election, but he seems utterly determined to blow the local authority election admin budget just for a few extra weeks

 

[The Ham]

Network North was contributing billions to local councils to improve roads (Hampshire is due to get about £4.2 million) - only Hampshire (which is a Tory run council) have just started a consultation on cuts they have to make and the proposed cuts to the highway budget is £7.5 million.

Therefore, even with the increase in funding there's going to be £3.3 million less money being spent on roads.

Primarily because of cuts by central government to local government grants.

Of course, this to will be Labour's fault.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm not entirely sure what sort of change is required here to balance the varying issues but it certainly feels to me as if private prosecutions brought by individuals (very rare to be fair) and organisations like the Post Office, TOCs, and others should be subject to more oversight.

It's become almost impossible for Jo or Joe Soap to bring a private prosecution in England or Wales. On the rare occasion when it looks likely to go ahead the DPP tends to take it over, regardless of whether that was desired by the aggrieved party.

Regarding the oversight question, you can add the scandal of magistrates in some parts of the country (extreme example Portsmouth) rubber stamping applications by energy companies (extreme example British Gas) to force entry to people's homes. What is the point of legal warrants if the authority doesn't have to justify their intended actions?

On the last point, the TV Licence Fee (which I support in principle if the alternative is the disintegration of the BBC) has led to many disgusting prosecutions and even more disgusting prison sentences, and there are no mitigating circumstances if someone is prosecuted and found guilty of not having a licence when they should have. A young woman with Down's Syndrome has recently earned herself a criminal record for this.

 

[Enthusiast]

On the last point, the TV Licence Fee (which I support in principle if the alternative is the disintegration of the BBC) has led to many disgusting prosecutions and even more disgusting prison sentences,...

Just on a point of pedantry, custody is not an option for non-payment of TV Licence. It is available for non-payment of any fines imposed, but that is the case for fines for any offence.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Despite the Post Office being owned by the Government, this enquiry needs to be totally independent. As sure as eggs are eggs if the Government is involved it will drag on… and on… and on…….

There is a public enquiry ongoing but like Grenfell Tower it will go on for years and the only people that will benefit are the legal profession. Oh that will be same legal profession that have been the prime beneficiaries of this whole saga from the start.

 

[dangie]

If the whole Horizon scandal isn't bad enough, it's nauseating that the government is attempting to act as if it's a Knight in Shining Armour in hurrying along the judicial process. They knew all the facts before the television programme but decided to do nothing.

Of course, whether it does actually hurry the process along is another matter entirely.

 

[jon0844]

Was as bad as Rishi just repeating how much money they're spending on flood defences when it was a fraction of what it was, but he just wanted to say £5bn (or whatever it is) over and over - presumably because it sounds like a lot to Joe Public.

The fact it's less seems irrelevant, just shout the same thing so the base can repeat it and sound impressed.

And of course he only turned up to talk about the floods after that had been in the news for a few days.

Maybe someone should do a series on junior doctors and their pay..

 

[The Ham]

Was as bad as Rishi just repeating how much money they're spending on flood defences when it was a fraction of what it was, but he just wanted to say £5bn (or whatever it is) over and over - presumably because it sounds like a lot to Joe Public.

The fact it's less seems irrelevant, just shout the same thing so the base can repeat it and sound impressed.

And of course he only turned up to talk about the floods after that had been in the news for a few days.

Maybe someone should do a series on junior doctors and their pay..

I wonder what the source for the £5bn is:

Investment in flood defences, UK - Office for National Statistics

Article discussing research into the state of investment in flood defences and alleviation across the UK.

www.ons.gov.uk

• Central government is the largest source of flood and coastal erosion risk management (FCERM) funding in England, contributing 90% in the financial year ending 2022.
• Expenditure on FCERM in England increased from £777 million in 2018 to £1.063 billion in 2021, current prices.

I've found a wire, it's £5.2bn over the next cycle:

Rishi Sunak under fire after week of devastating flooding across England

PM insists government is responding, as some residents are told to expect five more days of misery and colder weather

www.theguardian.com

Moore told reporters the EA was “working incredibly hard” and that the government was spending £5.2bn over the “next cycle” to “better protect homes that have been impacted by these consequences”.

However that leads to the question how long is a funding cycle?

If it's five years (5*1.063 = £5.315bn) then the budget in actual terms will fall and will be noticeable smaller once you've sorted for inflation.

 

[brad465]

However that leads to the question how long is a funding cycle?

If it's five years (5*1.063 = £5.315bn) then the budget in actual terms will fall and will be noticeable smaller once you've sorted for inflation.

6 years, the current one being 2021-2027. One issue with this latest one has been inflation impacts as you allude to, where the initial target was to protect 336,000 homes with this money, but has since been scaled down to 200,000, despite the fact the £5.2bn is double the previous capital programme period (2015-2021).

 

[sor]

If the whole Horizon scandal isn't bad enough, it's nauseating that the government is attempting to act as if it's a Knight in Shining Armour in hurrying along the judicial process. They knew all the facts before the television programme but decided to do nothing.

Of course, whether it does actually hurry the process along is another matter entirely.

there are many flaws in their plan, but perhaps number 1 is the fact that Vennells got her since-returned CBE in 2019, primarily “for services to the post office”

I don’t think it’ll cut through. The party that was in power for 14 years of the scandal (and who laid the groundwork for Horizon’s creation at the tail end of the Major govt) can’t redeem themselves now. No matter how many times their client presses alternate between claiming that Ed Davey or Keir Starmer were personally responsible for all of it.

 

[nw1]

Was as bad as Rishi just repeating how much money they're spending on flood defences when it was a fraction of what it was, but he just wanted to say £5bn (or whatever it is) over and over - presumably because it sounds like a lot to Joe Public.

The fact it's less seems irrelevant, just shout the same thing so the base can repeat it and sound impressed.

And of course he only turned up to talk about the floods after that had been in the news for a few days.

Maybe someone should do a series on junior doctors and their pay..

I don't think he will convert anyone though, only make his dwindling numbers of acolytes love him even more. The rest of us will see him for what he is: a vacuous individual only interested in his own ego and power.

I'm currently overseas but there was a little bit on the local news even here. He was trying to do the "Call Me Dave" thing of pseudo-informal dress: no tie and a big arctic-style jacket, if I remember right. You can just tell that he is trying to project a more "human" image, right on time for the election. Right. Of course his behaviour during the autumn shows that this attempted "humanity" does not extend to refugees or those that have sympathy for Palestinians.

Nice try.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2024 ==

there are many flaws in their plan, but perhaps number 1 is the fact that Vennells got her since-returned CBE in 2019, primarily “for services to the post office”

I don’t think it’ll cut through. The party that was in power for 14 years of the scandal (and who laid the groundwork for Horizon’s creation at the tail end of the Major govt) can’t redeem themselves now. No matter how many times their client presses alternate between claiming that Ed Davey or Keir Starmer were personally responsible for all of it.

I hope this is a joke!

If not, then to be quite frank Starmer and/or Davey would have the moral right to sue them out of existence.

 

[jfollows]

Politico (https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/pmqs-breakthrough-on-the-horizon/) suggests the two by-elections (Kingswood and Wellingborough) will be on February 15th. with the writ to enable this to be moved tomorrow, Thursday 11th. January.

SCOOP — BY-ELECTIONS AHOY: Wait no longer. Playbook hears the writs for two by-elections in Kingswood and Wellingborough are due to be moved on Thursday, as Tory strategists aim for February 15 as the date for both polls.

Reminder: The Conservatives are defending both seats after the departures of Chris Skidmore and Peter Bone — and while Kingswood is being scrapped in boundary changes soon anyway, Labour fancies its chances in Wellingborough.

That was quick! Officers on Labour’s ruling NEC chose Damien Egan to run in Kingswood on Tuesday night without a vote by local members. They justified it on the basis that Egan is already the candidate for Bristol North East, which will take in 40 percent of the current Kingswood seat. Check out this gap of 15 minutes between Times journalist Aubrey Allegretti’s tweets.

Just one problem: Egan is the sitting mayor of *checks notes* Lewisham, London. One Labour official predicts Egan will stand down and let his deputy take over until scheduled elections in May, telling Playbook: “We certainly wouldn’t want him to have both roles at the same time.” Michael Crick hears he could go today.

The Conservatives … are selecting their Kingswood candidate on Sunday, Playbook is told. It’s a two-horse race and Skidmore had a 11,220 majority in 2019.

Speaking of polls: Labour has a 19-point lead over the Tories in Savanta’s latest pollout this morning — the party’s biggest lead with the firm since October. Labour is on 45 percent, Tories 26, Lib Dems 10, Reform 8 and Greens 5.

On that polling, if replicated in the two by-elections, Labour could win Kingswood (majority 15.6% according to https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk...OneSeat&regorseat=Kingswood&boundary=2019base) and by 8.4% in Wellingborough.

 

[Acfb]

That's quite sensible of the Conservatives TBH although I still expect Wellingborough to be narrow Labour gain of at least 1000 like Tamworth/Mid Bedfordshire and Kingswood to be a very comfortable Labour gain (even though their candidate is currently Lewisham mayor).

Tories should be able to regain Wellingborough, Tamworth and Mid Bedfordshire in the general election.

 

[Gloster]

The Conservatives are playing the Post Office scandal for all it’s worth. They are not just putting themselves forward as ‘the party that is doing right by the victims’, despite having done nothing until it became a successful TV series, but also pushing as much blame as they can on to the Liberal Democrats, particularly Davey. The Liberal Democrats, notably Davey of those still in the Commons, don’t have anything to be proud of, but it is disingenuous of the Conservatives to point to their lack of action when Postal Affairs ministers when the post was rolled into other ministries and the responsibility of the Conservatives after 2015…and they didn’t do anything effective either. I am waiting for them to start claiming that Starmer is at fault for not intervening while he was DPP: I am not sure if he had the powers to do so, but who in the Telegraph, Sun, Mail, etc. is going to worry about little details like that.

 

[sor]

I hope this is a joke!

If not, then to be quite frank Starmer and/or Davey would have the moral right to sue them out of existence.

Not a joke - noted journalist Kelvin Mackenzie has been banging on about it, as has the superb paper of record, the Telegraph (now that may not be entirely serious!)

Might be easiest to just link to the Telegraph's "Ed Davey" section. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/ed-davey/ - with bonus mention of Starmer too, "Questions the Labour leader must answer"

Of course 30p Lee has just brought it up in parliament too, though there he is protected by parliamentary privilege (not that either of them are likely to want to sue)

 

[SuspectUsual]

The Conservatives are playing the Post Office scandal for all it’s worth. They are not just putting themselves forward as ‘the party that is doing right by the victims’, despite having done nothing until it became a successful TV series, but also pushing as much blame as they can on to the Liberal Democrats, particularly Davey. The Liberal Democrats, notably Davey of those still in the Commons, don’t have anything to be proud of, but it is disingenuous of the Conservatives to point to their lack of action when Postal Affairs ministers when the post was rolled into other ministries and the responsibility of the Conservatives after 2015…and they didn’t do anything effective either. I am waiting for them to start claiming that Starmer is at fault for not intervening while he was DPP: I am not sure if he had the powers to do so, but who in the Telegraph, Sun, Mail, etc. is going to worry about little details like that.

Sunak has just used answering his first question at PMQs to announce new primary legislation to exonerate and compensate the victims. Unfortunately, the question was asked by Lee Anderson, who banged on about why Ed Davey should resign

 

[nw1]

Not a joke - noted journalist Kelvin Mackenzie has been banging on about it, as has the superb paper of record, the Telegraph (now that may not be entirely serious!)

Might be easiest to just link to the Telegraph's "Ed Davey" section. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/ed-davey/ - with bonus mention of Starmer too, "Questions the Labour leader must answer"

Of course 30p Lee has just brought it up in parliament too, though there he is protected by parliamentary privilege (not that either of them are likely to want to sue)

Good grief.

This disgusting media-Conservative Party propaganda collusion racket has to be dealt with firmly very soon.

The Telegraph seems to like to think of itself as important. This clearly shows it isn't. It's the very definition of the word "pretentious" and nothing more than a Tory propaganda machine. And if I were Ed Davey I would seek punitive damages from the Telegraph, enough to hurt it financially and make it think twice before pushing out Tory propaganda like this again.

If this causes the Tory Party to win the next election due to a failure of the Lib Dems to gain critical seats, it shows the UK is beyond hope. A country where Tory politicians and powerful media interests conspire, seemingly, to keep the Conservative Party in for ever more.

The UK must not be allowed to become a de-facto one-party state of the Singapore kind in which elections exist but propaganda causes people to vote for the same party again, and again, and again. First thing I would be doing if I were Starmer is to introduce tough new laws to control media bias and party political propaganda in the printed media - which would of course have to include pro-Labour propaganda.

 

[Thirteen]

If the Election was sooner then maybe Ed Davey would be in trouble but if it's November then the Post Office scandal will not be front page news anymore.

It's a bit hyperbolic to suggest the Tories will win the GE because of this scandal

 

[jfollows]

If the Election was sooner then maybe Ed Davey would be in trouble but if it's November then the Post Office scandal will not be front page news anymore.

It's a bit hyperbolic to suggest the Tories will win the GE because of this scandal

Especially since the proposed solution is really bad legislation conceived in haste and to be repented at leisure.

 

[JamesT]

Good grief.

This disgusting media-Conservative Party propaganda collusion racket has to be dealt with firmly very soon.

The Telegraph seems to like to think of itself as important. This clearly shows it isn't. It's the very definition of the word "pretentious" and nothing more than a Tory propaganda machine. And if I were Ed Davey I would seek punitive damages from the Telegraph, enough to hurt it financially and make it think twice before pushing out Tory propaganda like this again.

If this causes the Tory Party to win the next election due to a failure of the Lib Dems to gain critical seats, it shows the UK is beyond hope. A country where Tory politicians and powerful media interests conspire, seemingly, to keep the Conservative Party in for ever more.

The UK must not be allowed to become a de-facto one-party state of the Singapore kind in which elections exist but propaganda causes people to vote for the same party again, and again, and again. First thing I would be doing if I were Starmer is to introduce tough new laws to control media bias and party political propaganda in the printed media - which would of course have to include pro-Labour propaganda.

I think you're massively overstating the importance of the media. People can and do make up their own minds. The Telegraph has a circulation of around 300K, the vast majority of voters in this country will never read anything they publish.
There have been 19 By-elections since the 2019 General Election, the Conservatives have won 3 of them. Hardly a single party state.
There are a wide selection of views in the printed media, are The Guardian, Socialist Worker, or Private Eye colluding for a Tory victory? The Telegraph has been known as the Torygraph for years, it's hardly a surprise they write pro-Conservative pieces. But you'll also find criticism of the party in their pages, though usually when they're being too wet and liberal in the paper's eyes.

 

[jfollows]

I think you're massively overstating the importance of the media. People can and do make up their own minds. The Telegraph has a circulation of around 300K, the vast majority of voters in this country will never read anything they publish.
There have been 19 By-elections since the 2019 General Election, the Conservatives have won 3 of them. Hardly a single party state.
There are a wide selection of views in the printed media, are The Guardian, Socialist Worker, or Private Eye colluding for a Tory victory? The Telegraph has been known as the Torygraph for years, it's hardly a surprise they write pro-Conservative pieces. But you'll also find criticism of the party in their pages, though usually when they're being too wet and liberal in the paper's eyes.

Well, it’s like ‘social media’ also, there are plenty of people who blindly believe any old nonsense that gets posted in a totally uncritical way, then there are lots of people who won’t believe a word of it.
I don’t personally care what newspapers say unless they dress up opinion as fact, as some of them do, but at least my solution is not to read any of those that I think do.
EDIT Mind you, when I read "on mass" instead of "en masse" in a Times article yesterday, I start wondering why I read this paper as well.

 

[Thirteen]

You have to take media with a pinch of salt on both sides of the spectrum.

 

[Acfb]

It's mainly the Murdoch, Tory client media such as the Times, the Sun and Talk TV which is the worst IMO (especially the likes of Julia Hartley-Brewer) as opposed to say GB News which doesn't bother me that much overall as they are supposed to be very right wing (and not some arbiter of public opinion) and I don't consider certain people on that like Tom Harwood, Michelle Dewberry, Emily Carver etc to be particularly objectionable on a personal level.

The problem is I use Yahoo Mail and so many news stories from the Telegraph in particular are appearing up all the time so it's quite hard to ignore/block them out.

 

[Falcon1200]

First thing I would be doing if I were Starmer is to introduce tough new laws to control media bias and party political propaganda in the printed media - which would of course have to include pro-Labour propaganda.

Censor the media? First step down a very dangerous road.