Unusual journeys

[enginedin]

I've noticed a few journeys recently that I wouldn't normally expect (many of them late night, which might be part of the explanation). Two in particular:

- a daily 2135 CrossCountry Aberdeen to Edinburgh service
- a daily 2108 Birmingham International to Manchester Airport (via Wrexham) Transport for Wales service

both of these are the only example of that specific route (with start/end points) by that operator. Is there a simple explanation (e.g. convenient way of making sure stock is in the right place for the following day? Some form of Parliamentary service for that operator?)

 

[JW4]

I've noticed a few journeys recently that I wouldn't normally expect (many of them late night, which might be part of the explanation). Two in particular:

- a daily 2135 CrossCountry Aberdeen to Edinburgh service
- a daily 2108 Birmingham International to Manchester Airport (via Wrexham) Transport for Wales service

both of these are the only example of that specific route (with start/end points) by that operator. Is there a simple explanation (e.g. convenient way of making sure stock is in the right place for the following day? Some form of Parliamentary service for that operator?)

Manchester Airport? I thought it was Manchester Piccadilly via Wrexham and Warrington

 

[enginedin]

Manchester Airport? I thought it was Manchester Piccadilly via Wrexham and Warrington

you're right, it was a combination of a typo / misreading timetables / losing concentration

 

[kaysha]

I think the Aberdeen Edinburgh service is to get the unit to craigentinny for overnight servicing.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding TFW Birmingham International-Manchester service despite the route it takes could anyone use it to get from Birmingham to Manchester and would a Birmingham-Manchester ticket be valid on it? I only ask as I've always thought Shrewsbury wasn't a permitted route to/from Manchester

 

[_toommm_]

Regarding TFW Birmingham International-Manchester service despite the route it takes could anyone use it to get from Birmingham to Manchester and would a Birmingham-Manchester ticket be valid on it? I only ask as I've always thought Shrewsbury wasn't a permitted route to/from Manchester

It’s not normally a permitted route if you have to change there, but as it’s a through train, a Birmingham to Manchester ticket will be valid (bar any tickets with TOC restrictions that exclude TfW).

 

[robbeech]

I think the Aberdeen Edinburgh service is to get the unit to craigentinny for overnight servicing.

Indeed it is no doubt operationally convenient to run this on service if it has a driver and guard from Edinburgh as it needs to get back to the depot.
A useful service for sure, but as I’m sure we can imagine it isn’t going to be the most reliable thing. Much delay on the working to Aberdeen will see it terminated short at Edinburgh or Dundee. Looks like it has only run 60% of the time since it started.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Regarding TFW Birmingham International-Manchester service despite the route it takes could anyone use it to get from Birmingham to Manchester and would a Birmingham-Manchester ticket be valid on it? I only ask as I've always thought Shrewsbury wasn't a permitted route to/from Manchester

For a route to be valid it needs to comply with any of three different criteria in the National Rail Conditions Of Travel, barring any specific route/TOC restrictions printed on the ticket.

1. It’s a direct train service between the two stations named on the ticket.
2. It’s the shortest route possible between those two stations using scheduled services.
3. It’s specified in the National Routeing Guide as a permitted route.

So while it would be valid for a Birmingham International/Birmingham Stations to Manchester Stations ticket (as long as the ticket isn’t restricted to another TOC/route) it might not be valid for a Birmingham-Manchester leg of a connecting journey (unless anyone else knows different).

 

[30907]

So while it would be valid for a Birmingham International/Birmingham Stations to Manchester Stations ticket (as long as the ticket isn’t restricted to another TOC/route) it might not be valid for a Birmingham-Manchester leg of a connecting journey (unless anyone else knows different).

I don't "know" different but I've certainly travelled without problem on the basis that such a ticket was valid

 

[Townsend Hook]

I don't "know" different but I've certainly travelled without problem on the basis that such a ticket was valid

Oh quite, I would very happily use that as a leg of a longer journey and I’d be shocked if a member of staff made an issue of it, but it may just be one of these strange, edge cases where something might be technically invalid but in practice will be accepted.

 

[CarrotPie]

For a route to be valid it needs to comply with any of three different criteria in the National Rail Conditions Of Travel, barring any specific route/TOC restrictions printed on the ticket.

1. It’s a direct train service between the two stations named on the ticket.
2. It’s the shortest route possible between those two stations using scheduled services.
3. It’s specified in the National Routeing Guide as a permitted route.

So while it would be valid for a Birmingham International/Birmingham Stations to Manchester Stations ticket (as long as the ticket isn’t restricted to another TOC/route) it might not be valid for a Birmingham-Manchester leg of a connecting journey (unless anyone else knows different).

So could you (theoretically) travel Waterloo-Vauxhall-Strawberry Hill-Vauxhall? It's a direct service...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So could you (theoretically) travel Waterloo-Vauxhall-Strawberry Hill-Vauxhall? It's a direct service...

Wouldn't you then call at Vauxhall twice?

 

[CarrotPie]

Wouldn't you then call at Vauxhall twice?

Yes. That's the point. But it's a direct service, so would it be a permitted route? What about with Oyster?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So could you (theoretically) travel Waterloo-Vauxhall-Strawberry Hill-Vauxhall? It's a direct service...

Wouldn't you then call at Vauxhall twice?

Yes. That's the point. But it's a direct service, so would it be a permitted route? What about with Oyster?

Surely, once you've travelled from Waterloo to Vauxhall (the first time) you've effectively completed your journey?

 

[Watershed]

Yes. That's the point. But it's a direct service, so would it be a permitted route? What about with Oyster?

Your ticket would have expired the first time the train called at Vauxhall so you would be overtravelling if you stayed on the train beyond there.

With Oyster or contactless PAYG it would be fine - it is a journey entirely within the Oyster/contactless area of validity and thus having touched in, you are valid to continue on the train for as long as you like. Provided you touched out within the maximum journey time you would only be charged the normal point-to-point fare. This varies depending on the time of day and day of week as well as the number of zones your overall journey passes through.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Provided you touched out within the maximum journey time you would only be charged the normal point-to-point fare.

In the example quoted, how long would be allowed with Oyster? Looping around via Strawberry Hill would, I reckon, add maybe an hour and a quarter onto what should be just a three (or four) minute journey.

 

[stadler]

Your ticket would have expired the first time the train called at Vauxhall so you would be overtravelling if you stayed on the train beyond there.

With Oyster or contactless PAYG it would be fine - it is a journey entirely within the Oyster/contactless area of validity and thus having touched in, you are valid to continue on the train for as long as you like. Provided you touched out within the maximum journey time you would only be charged the normal point-to-point fare. This varies depending on the time of day and day of week as well as the number of zones your overall journey passes through.

Out of interest what are the rules regarding trains that pass through a station non stop once and call there once both on the same journey?

Could you use a London Waterloo to Queenstown Road ticket to travel on a Kingston Loop train from London Waterloo - Wimbledon - Kingston - Twickenham - Richmond - Queenstown Road as this train only calls at Queenstown Road once?

Could you use a Queenstown Road to London Waterloo ticket to travel on a Kingston Loop train from Queenstown Road - Richmond - Twickenham - Kingston - Wimbledon - London Waterloo as this train only calls at Queenstown Road once?

Or would both of these be excluded because the train passes through the station even though it does not call there on both occasions?

 

[CarrotPie]

In the example quoted, how long would be allowed with Oyster? Looping around via Strawberry Hill would, I reckon, add maybe an hour and a quarter onto what should be just a three (or four) minute journey.

90-110 minutes, depending on time of day (Source)

Two hours before 19:00 on weekdays, 02:15 after 19:00 on weekdays and on Saturdays, 02:40 on Sundays and bank holidays.

Both Vauxhall and Waterloo are in Zone 1, so that's not the case.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

I've noticed a few journeys recently that I wouldn't normally expect (many of them late night, which might be part of the explanation). Two in particular:

- a daily 2135 CrossCountry Aberdeen to Edinburgh service
- a daily 2108 Birmingham International to Manchester Airport (via Wrexham) Transport for Wales service

both of these are the only example of that specific route (with start/end points) by that operator. Is there a simple explanation (e.g. convenient way of making sure stock is in the right place for the following day? Some form of Parliamentary service for that operator?)

There's also 2A01 0642 Dundee - Aberdeen which runs ECS from Craigentinny which is the corresponding move to the one you spotted.

 

[nw1]

For a route to be valid it needs to comply with any of three different criteria in the National Rail Conditions Of Travel, barring any specific route/TOC restrictions printed on the ticket.

1. It’s a direct train service between the two stations named on the ticket.
2. It’s the shortest route possible between those two stations using scheduled services.
3. It’s specified in the National Routeing Guide as a permitted route.

Is that the case? I thought it was any permitted route.

Not sure why they choose shortest route over quickest, either. For example I'd guess that Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham might be slightly shorter than via Woking, but very few people would go via Cobham other than enthusiasts wanting to "bag" the line or the stock.

 

[30907]

Is that the case? I thought it was any permitted route.

Not sure of your point? That's covered in #3.

 

[A S Leib]

Two hours before 19:00 on weekdays, 02:15 after 19:00 on weekdays and on Saturdays, 02:40 on Sundays and bank holidays.

I got that completely wrong, as that's the maximum time for six zones (e.g. if you were to go from Waterloo to Kingston, break the journey, then go from Kingston to Vauxhall). Of course, the Oyster / contactless system wouldn't be able to tell that the user was in zone 6 or had gone via there if they tapped in in zone 1 and out in zone 2.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Is that the case? I thought it was any permitted route.

Not sure why they choose shortest route over quickest, either. For example I'd guess that Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham might be slightly shorter than via Woking, but very few people would go via Cobham other than enthusiasts wanting to "bag" the line or the stock.

From the National Rail Conditions Of Travel:

13.1 Your Ticket may show that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of
a particular Train Company, or on trains travelling via a certain route or routes. If no
specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for
the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
13.1.1 any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;
13.1.2 by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route which
can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations shown
on your Ticket;
13.1.3 any other routes as shown in the ‘National Routeing Guide’.

So going by section 13.1.2, the shortest route is always valid (barring any specific TOC or route restrictions on the ticket), whether or not it's explicitly stated as a permitted route.

 

[moonarrow458]

There's also 2A01 0642 Dundee - Aberdeen which runs ECS from Craigentinny which is the corresponding move to the one you spotted.

Its certainly an odd service running non stop Dundee to Aberdeen although the ammount of pathing in the schedule suggests that it used to make more stops, presumably pre-covid, before XC startrd ripping out smaller stops to prevent overcrowding. Given some stops have been reinstated on other services, i wonder why these havent.

And running it empty from Edinburgh to Dundee is also odd, would certainly be time in the schedule to run it in service, i wonder why they have chosen to start it in passenger service from Dundee, would the traincrew not be based in Edinburgh?

Meanwhile down in the Midlands LNWR have a few odd through services on the coventry corridor presumably for stock rotation/stabling purposes.
On Saturdays:
2I70 - 2148 Wolverhampton to Birmingham International (all stations)

1C71 - 2133 Liverpool Lime Street to Coventry

On Sundays:
2Y55 - London Euston to Wolverhampton (via Northampton, all stops Birmingham International to Wolverhampton)

Then theres the small matter of the utterly bizzare South WCML LNWR timetable on Sunday evenings out of Euston with seemingly random stipping patterns and large gaps and lots of bunching for certain stations:
All day clock face up until the 1956 Euston to Brum service (1Y53)

The 2010 (2K51) Euston to Milton Keynes C is all stops to Cheddington, then non stop to Milton Keynes C

Then 2 services within 3 mins of eachother to Milton Keynes Central at:
2K53 - 2039 - Watford, Hemel, Berhamstead, Tring, Milton Keynes C
1K57- 2042- Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes C (overtakes 2K53)

2N59 - 2140 to Northampton has an utterly bizzare calling pattern:
Harrow, Bushey (set down only), Watford, Leighton Buzzard, Milton Keynes C, Wolverton, Northampton

And then between 2230 and 2300 there are 4 stopping services to Northampton (NMP) with varying stopping patterns:
2N63 - 2231 EUS - NMP - all stops except Tring & Cheddington
2N65 - 2242 EUS - NMP - all stops except Bushey, Kings Langley, Apsley, Wolverton
2N67 - 2253 EUS - NMP - all stops except Kings langley, Apsley, Cheddington
2N69 - 2300 EUS - NMP - all stops except Bushey

If anyone can shed light on this bizzare timetabling of Sunday evening LNWR services out of Euston that wpukd be much appreciated.

 

[A S Leib]

On Sundays:
2Y55 - London Euston to Wolverhampton (via Northampton, all stops Birmingham International to Wolverhampton)

Then theres the small matter of the utterly bizzare South WCML LNWR timetable on Sunday evenings out of Euston with seemingly random stipping patterns and large gaps and lots of bunching for certain stations:
All day clock face up until the 1956 Euston to Brum service (1Y53)

The 2010 (2K51) Euston to Milton Keynes C is all stops to Cheddington, then non stop to Milton Keynes C

Then 2 services within 3 mins of eachother to Milton Keynes Central at:
2K53 - 2039 - Watford, Hemel, Berhamstead, Tring, Milton Keynes C
1K57- 2042- Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes C (overtakes 2K53)

2N59 - 2140 to Northampton has an utterly bizzare calling pattern:
Harrow, Bushey (set down only), Watford, Leighton Buzzard, Milton Keynes C, Wolverton, Northampton

And then between 2230 and 2300 there are 4 stopping services to Northampton (NMP) with varying stopping patterns:
2N63 - 2231 EUS - NMP - all stops except Tring & Cheddington
2N65 - 2242 EUS - NMP - all stops except Bushey, Kings Langley, Apsley, Wolverton
2N67 - 2253 EUS - NMP - all stops except Kings langley, Apsley, Cheddington
2N69 - 2300 EUS - NMP - all stops except Bushey

If anyone can shed light on this bizzare timetabling of Sunday evening LNWR services out of Euston that wpukd be much appreciated.

I thought the Avanti Euston–Birmingham–Preston and beyond services calling at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central and Rugby in the morning but not the afternoon was bizarre enough but that is something else. At that point they could change their timetable to terminating everything at Long Buckby and it would make about as much sense.

 

[jfollows]

Then theres the small matter of the utterly bizzare South WCML LNWR timetable on Sunday evenings out of Euston with seemingly random stipping patterns and large gaps and lots of bunching for certain stations:
All day clock face up until the 1956 Euston to Brum service (1Y53)

The 2010 (2K51) Euston to Milton Keynes C is all stops to Cheddington, then non stop to Milton Keynes C

Then 2 services within 3 mins of eachother to Milton Keynes Central at:
2K53 - 2039 - Watford, Hemel, Berhamstead, Tring, Milton Keynes C
1K57- 2042- Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes C (overtakes 2K53)

2N59 - 2140 to Northampton has an utterly bizzare calling pattern:
Harrow, Bushey (set down only), Watford, Leighton Buzzard, Milton Keynes C, Wolverton, Northampton

And then between 2230 and 2300 there are 4 stopping services to Northampton (NMP) with varying stopping patterns:
2N63 - 2231 EUS - NMP - all stops except Tring & Cheddington
2N65 - 2242 EUS - NMP - all stops except Bushey, Kings Langley, Apsley, Wolverton
2N67 - 2253 EUS - NMP - all stops except Kings langley, Apsley, Cheddington
2N69 - 2300 EUS - NMP - all stops except Bushey

If anyone can shed light on this bizzare timetabling of Sunday evening LNWR services out of Euston that wpukd be much appreciated.

It's timetabled as a "two track" railway so the fast and slow services use the same lines, 1H75 20:31 Euston-Manchester is the last service booked to use the fast lines throughout, the working timetable at CB02 WATFORD JUNCTION TO RUGBY Sun.xlsx 306 KB shows the details I think.
Essentially the slow services miss out stops to speed them up and avoid holding up the fast services now on the same lines as much as they otherwise would do.
Although the WTT shows all trains after a certain time using the slow lines, the reality could be that all services use the fast lines instead, with much the same effect. I think only Bushey requires special provision if its down fast platform is used (set down only and no 12-car trains).
The timetable allows for maintenance and other work to be performed on the unused pair of lines, starting after the passage of 1H75.
EDIT I think the same thing happens on weekday-nights too, but the down fast services from Euston don't run as late as on a Sunday, so the slow trains don't have to keep out of the way by skip-stopping as they appear to do on Sunday nights.

 

[Watershed]

Out of interest what are the rules regarding trains that pass through a station non stop once and call there once both on the same journey?

There are no specific rules that deal with this situation. The general principle applies that, once you call at your destination station then usually your ticket would expire. The only exception would be if your ticket was specifically routed via somewhere else you hadn't yet reached or passed through, but that doesn't apply here.

Could you use a London Waterloo to Queenstown Road ticket to travel on a Kingston Loop train from London Waterloo - Wimbledon - Kingston - Twickenham - Richmond - Queenstown Road as this train only calls at Queenstown Road once?

Yes, that's valid. It's a direct train and you don't call at Queenstown Road until after passing Kingston, Twickenham etc.

Could you use a Queenstown Road to London Waterloo ticket to travel on a Kingston Loop train from Queenstown Road - Richmond - Twickenham - Kingston - Wimbledon - London Waterloo as this train only calls at Queenstown Road once?

That's fine. Your ticket doesn't expire just because you call at your origin.

Or would both of these be excluded because the train passes through the station even though it does not call there on both occasions?

Running through a station non-stop is irrelevant as far as the 'direct trains' rule is concerned.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Its certainly an odd service running non stop Dundee to Aberdeen although the ammount of pathing in the schedule suggests that it used to make more stops, presumably pre-covid, before XC startrd ripping out smaller stops to prevent overcrowding. Given some stops have been reinstated on other services, i wonder why these havent.

And running it empty from Edinburgh to Dundee is also odd, would certainly be time in the schedule to run it in service, i wonder why they have chosen to start it in passenger service from Dundee, would the traincrew not be based in Edinburgh?

I presume it allows for flexibility in routing due to engineering ops if it runs ECS from Edinburgh to Dundee.
I think it used to depart via the Suburban line too.

 

[WAB]

Its certainly an odd service running non stop Dundee to Aberdeen although the ammount of pathing in the schedule suggests that it used to make more stops, presumably pre-covid, before XC startrd ripping out smaller stops to prevent overcrowding. Given some stops have been reinstated on other services, i wonder why these havent.

With the pathing allowance, it doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose, only arriving in Aberdeen 13 minutes before an HST working from Edinburgh. I can't believe there is that much demand from Dundee to justify it working in service from there?

 

[CarrotPie]

With the pathing allowance, it doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose, only arriving in Aberdeen 13 minutes before an HST working from Edinburgh. I can't believe there is that much demand from Dundee to justify it working in service from there?

Perhaps that's the first place they can get a guard or something like that?