Should Southern On Board Supervisors (OBS) be abolished?

[Surreytraveller]

Never even seen an OBS from London to Dorking.

That's because that route is DOO and has been for years

 

[Recessio]

That's because that route is DOO and has been for years

That'll explain it

 

[Horizon22]

Is a person who's role is explicitly customer service "putting themselves out" by ensuring that they are visible to the public they are providing that service too? Whilst I can appreciate the safety aspects of late night trains at weekends or the practicalities on crush-loaded trains it does seem that the default location for an OBS is moving back and forth throughout the train. It should not require "good will" to do something that is a normal part of the role. Are you suggesting that they are unlikely to be caught or disciplined and therefore it is understandable or acceptable?

Often I see gateline staff hover "nearish" the gateline but not really around it as opposed to being more proactive or dispatch staff immediately go back to mess rooms rather than circulate around platforms. Whereas 5 years ago, sure this existed, but not to the same degree. Many staff are unfortunately doing the bare minimum because a) they know they can b) limited supervision c) general morale.

No doubt the current weather may also be playing a small part.

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That'll explain it

London to Horsham via Dorking should have an OBS on though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

London to Horsham via Dorking should have an OBS on though.

Is that route allowed to have OBS now? I remember they used to say Dorking to Horsham had to specifically have a guard, and that was eventually a limitation preventing the 455s from regularly running there despite being the main fleet on the route for years.

 

[Krokodil]

Some on a late night don’t like venturing out of the rear cab due to prospective trouble. Even on guarded trains it’s not worth pestering drunks for fares if they are nasty drunk. It’s no excuse for doing away with them though as they’re there for more than just revenue collection.

Those are the most important time to be out and about. Not necessarily checking tickets but wandering down the train, keeping an eye out for vulnerable passengers (on some notorious trains I'll encourage families etc to head down the platform to the carriage furthest from the entrance) and engaging with rowdy drunks to talk them down from arguments.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Those are the most important time to be out and about.

Yes 100%. If a guard can’t leave the cab on a rowdy late night train, then they’re not doing the primary function of job which is to guard the train and keep customers safe. Several times when I’ve been travelling in my early and mid teens alone late at night I’ve been trapped in the window seat where a strange, drunk or creepy person has sat next to me and I’ve been too scared to move, and only through the guard noticing my glances (and one time on a Cambrian 158 I mouthed “Help”) have I escaped those scary situations.

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Not necessarily checking tickets but wandering down the train, keeping an eye out for vulnerable passengers (on some notorious trains I'll encourage families etc to head down the platform to the carriage furthest from the entrance) and engaging with rowdy drunks to talk them down from arguments.

We may not always agree on this forum, but I have so, so much respect for you for this. It must be so daunting to have to interact with people in that state knowing how quickly they can turn nasty, especially when working alone, but having a guard acting in the way you’ve just described would really put my mind at rest if travelling alone late at night. As someone who has been harassed on trains late at night before, I really must thank you.

 

[Horizon22]

Is that route allowed to have OBS now? I remember they used to say Dorking to Horsham had to specifically have a guard, and that was eventually a limitation preventing the 455s from regularly running there despite being the main fleet on the route for years.

They've run 377s on the route for years and had OBSs since the inception.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They've run 377s on the route for years.

Ahh yes, I know - I referred to how 455s were kept off the route, with 377s prioritised - but I remember a discussion where it was established an OBS would run to Dorking and a guard would take over to go to Horsham?

 

[Facing Back]

The reality with this, and many other railway roles, is that they involve extensive lone working and supervision is difficult. Therefore, where motivation is low, performance will be affected and people will do as little as they can get away with.

Incentives such as payments for scanning tickets, reward vouchers for positive customer feedback, attendance bonuses etc. are good ways of driving positive behaviours (I’m not sure whether OBSs have these schemes, but if they don’t, they should). Fundamentally the OBS role is a bit of a fudge, and it comes as no surprise to me that people upthread report tickets being checked more thoroughly and more often on guarded trains, where the guard’s active role naturally translates to more motivation/involvement.

All very reasonable. Depending on the culture even naturally motivated high performers can gravitate downwards overtime of that is the norm. I'm more asking a question about the role of an OBS and are they doing it if remaining invisible.

I'm not sure that I agree regarding payments for scanning tickets. Granted it is a pragmatic step but I'm more inclined towards different forms of performance management if ticket scanning is a core part of the role. If I suggested lowering basic remuneration and adding this commission so that good performers earn more than average and poor performers earn less I can imagine the feedback - yet this is common in many roles where sales is a key component of the role.

Timely rewards for customer feedback, flexibility, innovation I would agree with 100%. Attendance is always a good one to debate though.

I get your point about guards being more motivated and that the OBS being a fudge but I don't know what the answer is. I noted your point upstream about returning the role of guard to Southern but reading the huge amount of opinion on here I'm not persuaded that stopping a train running if the second member is not present is a step forward considering the state of technology and the safety of the railway generally. An opinion, I accept, that is generated from an armchair.

I do quite like having a second member of staff on board a train but if they do not add to my experience as a customer then I question their value. If they are visible, present, I can ask questions, they do as one poster upstream discussed, look out for difficult situations, diffuse tensions, reduce stress... Then why wouldn't anyone want to see them? Oh - and surely there is the option to check the odd ticket too. On Southern they used to do it a lot in first class - no idea about now.

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Often I see gateline staff hover "nearish" the gateline but not really around it as opposed to being more proactive or dispatch staff immediately go back to mess rooms rather than circulate around platforms. Whereas 5 years ago, sure this existed, but not to the same degree. Many staff are unfortunately doing the bare minimum because a) they know they can b) limited supervision c) general morale.

No doubt the current weather may also be playing a small part.

Putting the physical impact of storms to one side, there does always seem to be a real impact on morale when the weather is ****ty and the nights are longer.

If you put aside the possibility of a massive pay increase and assume for a moment that there will be changed to working practices - have you any thoughts on how morale and motivation could be increased?

 

[Surreytraveller]

London to Horsham via Dorking should have an OBS on though.

Only Dorking to Horsham requires an OBS

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2024 ==

They've run 377s on the route for years and had OBSs since the inception.

The OBSs have only worked Dorking to Horsham, which is the section which used to have conductors. North of Dorking went DOO in 1999, with north of Epsom long before that (obviously slam door trains still had conductors on them after 1999). After OBSs were invented in 2016, 455s that ran between Dorking and Horsham couldn't stop at intermediate stations

 

[Geogregor]

If you put aside the possibility of a massive pay increase and assume for a moment that there will be changed to working practices - have you any thoughts on how morale and motivation could be increased?

Interesting question, which I don't have answer for.

One thing is sure, morale is low. It doesn't help that a lot of staff feel that people up the food chain would rather got rid of them. In the name of "automation", or rather general diminishing of services offered by the railways.

I work for the railway and have a feeling that most folks don't care about anything. From the DfT, which would probably gladly got rid of most of the railways, via disinterested top management, indifferent middle management, all the way to the lowest grades.

There is no vision to improve nor desire to grow the business. In the meantime physical infrastructure is also falling to bits as maintenance is another issue with serious gaps. Our stations are literally falling apart, so is some rolling stock.

It is not great time to be in the railways.

 

[Horizon22]

Only Dorking to Horsham requires an OBS

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The OBSs have only worked Dorking to Horsham, which is the section which used to have conductors. North of Dorking went DOO in 1999, with north of Epsom long before that (obviously slam door trains still had conductors on them after 1999). After OBSs were invented in 2016, 455s that ran between Dorking and Horsham couldn't stop at intermediate stations

Yes but you wouldn't roster/ have a diagram for an OBS from Dorking to Horsham only, they'd probably be on board throughout from/to London is my point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2024 ==

Putting the physical impact of storms to one side, there does always seem to be a real impact on morale when the weather is ****ty and the nights are longer.

If you put aside the possibility of a massive pay increase and assume for a moment that there will be changed to working practices - have you any thoughts on how morale and motivation could be increased?

As others have said, the general industry malaise for many front-line rail workers doesn't exactly endear them to having high "morale and motivation". The atmosphere plays a massive part so if that is sorted out that will be a good start. Proactive management is another aspect, especially for on-board staff; seeing their manager regularly, having on-board assessments, having their viewpoint heard, development opportunities etc.

Anyway this is getting a little off-topic.

 

[Facing Back]

Yes but you wouldn't roster/ have a diagram for an OBS from Dorking to Horsham only, they'd probably be on board throughout from/to London is my point.

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As others have said, the general industry malaise for many front-line rail workers doesn't exactly endear them to having high "morale and motivation". The atmosphere plays a massive part so if that is sorted out that will be a good start. Proactive management is another aspect, especially for on-board staff; seeing their manager regularly, having on-board assessments, having their viewpoint heard, development opportunities etc.

Anyway this is getting a little off-topic.

I'd suggest that it is on topic regarding the performance of the OBS's which the thread had boiled down to a combination of motivation and management - and the overlap between the two.

I don't work in the industry but I would agree with all of your points in any industry as general good leadership and management.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Yes but you wouldn't roster/ have a diagram for an OBS from Dorking to Horsham only, they'd probably be on board throughout from/to London is my point.

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They don't have an OBS all the way to London, unless the OBS needs to go there to finish.
They only work as far as Dorking, then pass to Epsom to pass on the next one down to Dorking to work it to Horsham.
Reason being Epsom has a mess room as its a crew depot
They're not going to roster an OBS on a train that doesn't require them. The driver wouldn't know whether they've got an OBS or not

 

[WizCastro197]

On Southern services to/from Gatwick Airport and London Victoria, i have never seen ticket checks. About 50% of the time the OBS will make an announcement, but patrolling the train is very rare.

In contrast, I have noticed an increase in the number of checks I receive on Reigate to Victoria services in recent months. There usually weren't any but from September/October onwards there seems to have been a real pickup.

Although slightly off topic, GatEx OBS will almost always check between Haywards Heath and Brighton, and often make announcements about validity of tickets etc even before the train has even left Brighton.

 

[stadler]

Just travelled from Victoria to Burgess Hill, and the on board supervisor has spent the entirety of the journey in the back cab. As they therefore don’t appear to be required for the operation of the train, nor are they providing any ‘customer experience’ benefits, is there any point to their existence and should Southern therefore be a fully DOO railway such as Thameslink is?

This is entirely normal for OBSs. OBSs almost never bother to check tickets. Despite using Southern trains that have OBSs multiple times a week i have never had my ticket checked since the role was introduced. I use these trains multiple times a week and not even once has my ticket been checked.

What i will say though is that the Southern OBSs are overall a friendly helpful bunch of people. They might not bother ever checking tickets or walking through the train but if you approach them with any questions they have always been very nice helpful people and happy to answer questions. I have never had any bad OBSs. Unlike some other TOCs onboard staff i have never come across any jobsworth OBSs.

Some services still have Guards though. Southern have kept Guards on all 171s from London Bridge to Uckfield and from Eastbourne to Ashford and all 377s from Clapham Junction to Watford Junction and about 75% of 377s on Redhill to Tonbridge services. So these trains are still proper Guards rather than OBSs. But on these trains my experience has been the same that these Guards never bother checking tickets either.

 

[Carlisle]

physical infrastructure is also falling to bits as maintenance is another issue with serious gaps. Our stations are literally falling apart,

My guess would be with modern H & S standards rebuilding many railway structures is a very expensive business Take Lancaster station for example, scaffolding’s been up around 6 months but almost nothing else has happened.

 

[stadler]

Is that route allowed to have OBS now? I remember they used to say Dorking to Horsham had to specifically have a guard, and that was eventually a limitation preventing the 455s from regularly running there despite being the main fleet on the route for years.

The 455s between Dorking to Horsham and Guildford to Leatherhead and Clapham Junction to Shepherds Bush kept Guards even after the OBS started as the stations on these lines have no monitors or mirrors making them unsuitable for DOO despatch. The 377s between Dorking to Horsham had OBSs ever since they were introduced. These trains did not retain Guards on this route. However on the Guildford to Leatherhead route Guards were still required on 377s right up until when this service was withdrawn.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The 455s between Dorking to Horsham and Guildford to Leatherhead and Clapham Junction to Shepherds Bush kept Guards even after the OBS started as the stations on these lines have no monitors or mirrors making them unsuitable for DOO despatch. The 377s between Dorking to Horsham had OBSs ever since they were introduced. These trains did not retain Guards on this route. However on the Guildford to Leatherhead route Guards were still required on 377s right up until when this service was withdrawn.

455s were taken off those routes after OBSs started, as the Conductors no longer signed the traction. 455s could still run Dorking to Horsham, but couldn't stop at the intermediate stations

 

[stadler]

455s were taken off those routes after OBSs started, as the Conductors no longer signed the traction. 455s could still run Dorking to Horsham, but couldn't stop at the intermediate stations

There was definitely a short period after OBSs were introduced that the Selhurst Guards continued to work 455s on the Dorking to Horsham and Guildford to Leatherhead and Clapham Junction to Shepherds Bush routes. I think it took slightly less than a year after OBSs were introduced before 455s stopped being used on these routes. But yes after this the 455s stopped working these routes.

What i have always wondered is why Clapham Junction to Watford Junction (and Guildford to Leatherhead before the route was withdrawn) still require Guards on the 377s even to this day. It seems rather odd and even a friend of mine who is a Selhurst Guard was saying he was surprised they have not made these services DOO yet. I wonder whether there is actually a particular reason why Guards are still needed.

 

[Horizon22]

What i have always wondered is why Clapham Junction to Watford Junction (and Guildford to Leatherhead before the route was withdrawn) still require Guards on the 377s even to this day. It seems rather odd and even a friend of mine who is a Selhurst Guard was saying he was surprised they have not made these services DOO yet. I wonder whether there is actually a particular reason why Guards are still needed.

I think there's something to do with the NR route not being cleared, but don't quote me on that.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I think there's something to do with the NR route not being cleared, but don't quote me on that.

Its odd, as London Overground are DOO as far as Shepherds Bush. But I suppose if a guard is needed from there they may as well have one from Clapham.
Of course, stations towards Guildford have never been cleared for DOO, so still need guards. Could be something to do with station lighting - I seem to recall that was a sticking point for Southampton going DOO

 

[Robertj21a]

This is entirely normal for OBSs. OBSs almost never bother to check tickets. Despite using Southern trains that have OBSs multiple times a week i have never had my ticket checked since the role was introduced. I use these trains multiple times a week and not even once has my ticket been checked.

What i will say though is that the Southern OBSs are overall a friendly helpful bunch of people. They might not bother ever checking tickets or walking through the train but if you approach them with any questions they have always been very nice helpful people and happy to answer questions. I have never had any bad OBSs. Unlike some other TOCs onboard staff i have never come across any jobsworth OBSs.

Some services still have Guards though. Southern have kept Guards on all 171s from London Bridge to Uckfield and from Eastbourne to Ashford and all 377s from Clapham Junction to Watford Junction and about 75% of 377s on Redhill to Tonbridge services. So these trains are still proper Guards rather than OBSs. But on these trains my experience has been the same that these Guards never bother checking tickets either.

Agreed, the OBS are a generally helpful and cheerful bunch. Weren't they recruited from outside the industry for that very reason ?

I gather that the withdrawal of the 313s has resulted in their guards now assuming a general OBS role.

 

[Meerkat]

If the OBS are worried about their future then getting about and being useful to get the public on their side would be wise. Otherwise a suggestion to get rid of them will be met by shrugs “never see them anyway”.
Be useful enough and they could have the public insisting they want them on DOO lines. Think there are plenty of passengers who object to the ‘ceremony of the doors’ but would like a visible, helpful presence on the train.
Do management review how many ticket scans are made - that must be a good indication (over a wide enough sample of OBSs and time) of who isn’t really doing their job.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If the OBS are worried about their future then getting about and being useful to get the public on their side would be wise. Otherwise a suggestion to get rid of them will be met by shrugs “never see them anyway”.
Be useful enough and they could have the public insisting they want them on DOO lines. Think there are plenty of passengers who object to the ‘ceremony of the doors’ but would like a visible, helpful presence on the train.
Do management review how many ticket scans are made - that must be a good indication (over a wide enough sample of OBSs and time) of who isn’t really doing their job.

To be honest, I don't think it would make a difference either way whether they are visible or not, and the staff know it. If management want to get rid of the grade they will

 

[Horizon22]

Its odd, as London Overground are DOO as far as Shepherds Bush. But I suppose if a guard is needed from there they may as well have one from Clapham.
Of course, stations towards Guildford have never been cleared for DOO, so still need guards. Could be something to do with station lighting - I seem to recall that was a sticking point for Southampton going DOO

I believe its the WCML section.

 

[Mainsideman]

To be honest, I don't think it would make a difference either way whether they are visible or not, and the staff know it. If management want to get rid of the grade they will

The same thing has been said for OBSs as a whole since they where brought in, but here we are 8 years later and they are still around.

 

[GordonT]

To a non railway worker like myself it seems a bit cockeyed that Thameslink appear to run quite happily without guards or OBSs over arguably more challenging terrain including "the core" than the sections of Southern which cannot function without an OBS. Are there genuine justifications for OBSs other than industrial relations considerations and if so why are Thameslink able to function without OBSs?

 

[Surreytraveller]

The same thing has been said for OBSs as a whole since they where brought in, but here we are 8 years later and they are still around.

Only because ASLEF are powerful. That's what's protecting the grade.

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To a non railway worker like myself it seems a bit cockeyed that Thameslink appear to run quite happily without guards or OBSs over arguably more challenging terrain including "the core" than the sections of Southern which cannot function without an OBS. Are there genuine justifications for OBSs other than industrial relations considerations and if so why are Thameslink able to function without OBSs?

And Thameslink also don't want platform staff dispatch either. They're quite happy for the drivers to do it all
The thing about OBSs is disabled assistance. Any routes that had conductors had to have OBSs. Even the routes Thameslink took over, such as Horsham, East Grinstead and Littlehampton were supposed to have them, but that quietly went out the window

 

[Russel]

Also, given what’s happened with the pay dispute there is now very little goodwill amongst staff so why would they put themselves out?

Because it's their job, it's what they are being paid to do!

If you walked into Sainsburys and there was no one on the checkouts to serve you because they were all hiding out the back, would there still be this urge to defend them, or are rail staff different?