Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[baz962]

There is quite a balancing act on how much time is saved.

Very roughly it is 44 miles from Cricklewood to Bedford, but few bits are never going to get to 125mph, so let's call it 40 miles max. A train doing 120-125mph could cover it in 20 minutes, more realistically 21-22 minutes as needs to accelerate to top speed once get on fast bit.

At 100mph, the 40 miles will take about 27 minutes, so about 5 minutes longer than 22 minutes. However there are few bits with speeds between 100 and 125mph due to curvature etc. Slowing down bit and then accelerating back to 125mph few times, is going to eat into another 1-2 minutes. So the upgrade to 125mph only really gains about 4 minutes.

I do not know if 810s can change system at 100+ mph on full power, I suspect in reality likely to be 20 seconds of coasting, during which bit of speed will be lost. To put it into perspective that 5 minutes, doesn't even restore the extra walk time to tube or road in front of St Pancras which was added when trains were moved outside the Barlow shed.

I'm guessing that the upgrade is just to the overhead wires. So you would still be limited to the line speed. The total 125 is around six miles through Radlett and then it's not 125 until Sundon which is around 35 miles out of London. It's around 21 miles of the 50 to Bedford.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

810s will run on overhead power from St Pancras to just North of Cricklewood station the run on Diesel power to Bedford in down direction , into London Up , pan down at Bedford until just North of Cricklewood , 5miles 30ch to be exact where line speed changes from 95 to 110 mph with a 100 mph restriction for EMU.
ApCo Balise ( automatic power control) gubbins and signage will be installed to mark raise/ lower pan area.
this will be the case until catenary is upgraded, around 200 locations require adjustment for higher speed electric operation.
St Pancras will be diesel free.
Most likely first revenue use of 810 will be before this work is completed even with some large weekend possessions in 2024 .

This would have been ludicrous fortunately i see @Bald Rick informs us that the OLE will be fully upgraded by then so this nonsense can be dispensed with. Mind you will we see a repeat of it with TPE 802's running in diesel mode under the wires to Stalybridge.

 

[Meerkat]

There is quite a balancing act on how much time is saved.

Very roughly it is 44 miles from Cricklewood to Bedford, but few bits are never going to get to 125mph, so let's call it 40 miles max. A train doing 120-125mph could cover it in 20 minutes, more realistically 21-22 minutes as needs to accelerate to top speed once get on fast bit.

At 100mph, the 40 miles will take about 27 minutes, so about 5 minutes longer than 22 minutes. However there are few bits with speeds between 100 and 125mph due to curvature etc. Slowing down bit and then accelerating back to 125mph few times, is going to eat into another 1-2 minutes. So the upgrade to 125mph only really gains about 4 minutes.

I do not know if 810s can change system at 100+ mph on full power, I suspect in reality likely to be 20 seconds of coasting, during which bit of speed will be lost. To put it into perspective that 5 minutes, doesn't even restore the extra walk time to tube or road in front of St Pancras which was added when trains were moved outside the Barlow shed.

If you didn’t match current speeds would that collapse the timetable?

 

[43066]

AIUI all the OLE125 work south of St Albans is being done next Christmas.

Thanks. What about the section from St Albans - Bedford? This will be more significant as it’s 125/120 beyond Sundon junction.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks. What about the section from St Albans - Bedford? This will be more significant as it’s 125/120 beyond Sundon junction.

Before or after next Christmas, I can guarantee it!

(I don’t know, but there is a lot of work to do. Possessions are easier to get north of Luton though).

 

[InTheEastMids]

Heading southbound, EMR IC services I've been on are always close behind the Thameslink services that use the fast lines between Harpenden and West Hampstead.

So I'm sightly surprised they don't just put the southbound changeover point there as beyond that point, >100mph capability seems superfluous.

Heading Northbound, IC services usually catch the Connect service at Wellingborough, so come to think of it, 125 going North is pretty superfluous too because the time gained further South is lost crawling through the Wellingborough area until the Connect gets out of the way.

 

[baz962]

Heading southbound, EMR IC services I've been on are always close behind the Thameslink services that use the fast lines between Harpenden and West Hampstead.

So I'm sightly surprised they don't just put the southbound changeover point there as beyond that point, >100mph capability seems superfluous.

Heading Northbound, IC services usually catch the Connect service at Wellingborough, so come to think of it, 125 going North is pretty superfluous too because the time gained further South is lost crawling through the Wellingborough area until the Connect gets out of the way.

Well hopefully they will change the timing for the connect too as they will be able to run faster.

 

[Yew]

The 222s are only clapped out because they've been allowed to get that way.

It does feel that the MML has a double whammy at the moment, of 222s allowed to get shabby because they will soon be departing, and the 360s which the previous owner allowed to get shabby (and for which the promised refurbishment hasn't happened), as neither are old stock.

Don't forget losing the HST's, and their Shabby 180 replacements.

 

[Aspen90]

Everybody’s Manky Rejects - EMR.
I remember when they were advertising that the 170’s would have the same interiors as the 810’s… Not a chance in hell is that happening.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Everybody’s Manky Rejects - EMR.

Brilliant I shall be using that from now on!

 

[QSK19]

Don't forget losing the HST's.

Which is what frustrates me about the 33x 810s being billed as a capacity increase. They are, of course, a capacity increase, but only over what there is now. Let’s not forget that EMR started off with 8-coach HSTs; so to say that the 810s are a capacity increase does seem a little bit of a con to me.

On hindsight (which can be a terrible thing!), 33 was an insufficient number to order - I can’t see roughly half the services being 10-car given that AIUI this relies on 31 units being in service. A shame that increasing the order is out of the question given that it would be relatively easy to do so with the production line being open.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2024 ==

Everybody’s Manky Rejects - EMR.

I was going to suggest Even More Rotten*; but I doubt anybody would beat your one. An absolute piece of genius

* and I doubt my suggestion would count given that the 156s and ex-LNER HSTs aren't part of the fleet anymore!

 

[AndrewJM70]

It is a capacity increase over the HSTs as they only ran 2x per hour. 16 (or more) standard class coaches per hour with the 810s versus 10 during HST days.

 

[Roast Veg]

Indeed, the HSTs were used very inefficiently. It would be nice to have the Leeds services back though.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Everybody’s Manky Rejects - EMR

I'm old enough to recall putting my fiancé on a train of early Mk2s hauled by a Peak. The Midland has always been down the pecking order.

 

[43066]

Before or after next Christmas, I can guarantee it!

I’m pretty sure “It’ll be over by Christmas” is what they said about WW1, in 1914.

So that doesn’t bode well!

 

[Kneedown]

However your statement I would say is wholly unfair. If your counting projects completed during their government, you can't forget HS1 was completed. However its also worth mentioning the Labour government announced the Great Western Mainline electrification, started construction of the Elizabeth Line and were the ones to start the initial assessments into the possibility of electrifying the MML and constructing HS2.

It's not entirely fair to judge a government on what its priorities might be based on its actions more than 14 years ago, when the world and global priorities were very didifferent.

I believe it was Andrew Adonis himself who said that the MML was "Not a priority".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

I'm old enough to recall putting my fiancé on a train of early Mk2s hauled by a Peak. The Midland has always been down the pecking order.

Mk2s and a 45 are the absolute pinnacle of frothability!

 

[STINT47]

If the 810s are further delayed in a few years time the HSTs will be re--mported from Mexico and described as new trains to the area that will get a high quality refurbishment at some point in the future.

 

[Aspen90]

If the 810s are further delayed in a few years time the HSTs will be re--mported from Mexico and described as new trains to the area that will get a high quality refurbishment at some point in the future.

No, the HST’s will come back but with stickers on the windows saying “a refresh is on the horizon” for 3-4 years with absolutely no investment or refurbishment to be seen. But yes you’re right, they’ll be described as new trains!

 

[43095john]

810001 has started its overnight test runs between Darlington & York last night, 3 round trips. Expected to do the same tonight

 

[QSK19]

No, the HST’s will come back but with stickers on the windows saying “a refresh is on the horizon” for 3-4 years with absolutely no investment or refurbishment to be seen. But yes you’re right, they’ll be described as new trains!

However, there would be a good chance of them getting replacement seat covers installed a few months before they go off to be scrapped

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

810001 has started its overnight test runs between Darlington & York last night, 3 round trips. Expected to do the same tonight

That’s good news - another step along the way reached.

 

[Jamesrob637]

810001 has started its overnight test runs between Darlington & York last night, 3 round trips. Expected to do the same tonight

Did the wheels survive the pounding past the Sidings on the racetrack?

 

[800001]

Did the wheels survive the pounding past the Sidings on the racetrack?

That’s been relaid over Xmas!

 

[DJH1971]

Any news on the construction of the other sets, such as 810002?

 

[800001]

Any news on the construction of the other sets, such as 810002?

002 is in Italy at Pistoia for climate testing.
003/004 in test at Aycliffe.

 

[QSK19]

Any news on the construction of the other sets, such as 810002?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2024 ==

002 is in Italy at Pistoia for climate testing.
003/004 in test at Aycliffe.

And from what I remember reading in Modern Railways, welding has started on 810016, though I stand corrected by those in-the-know

 

[D365]

Which is what frustrates me about the 33x 810s being billed as a capacity increase. They are, of course, a capacity increase, but only over what there is now. Let’s not forget that EMR started off with 8-coach HSTs; so to say that the 810s are a capacity increase does seem a little bit of a con to me.

I could be wrong, but were the HSTs not [in effect] replaced by 222s that were replaced by EMR Connect?

 

[QSK19]

I could be wrong, but were the HSTs not [in effect] replaced by 222s that were replaced by EMR Connect?

I believe that 3 222s were dedicated to STP-Corby; so they moved over to IC in order to pick up the slack following HST withdrawal.

The point I am making is that the 810s are going to be touted as a huge capacity boost for IC services. Whilst, strictly speaking, there may very well be an overall capacity increase when comparing the 810/360 combination to the HST/222 one, the fact that services that used to be 8-car in the HST days will be operated by 5-car ones (despite the high number of seats per 810) doesn’t make the achievement look as fantastic as it seems at first thought. This is compounded by the fact that 33 units is not sufficient to have half the services running as 10-car: as I said before, having 31 units to run such a timetable isn’t feasible.

 

[JamesT]

I believe that 3 222s were dedicated to STP-Corby; so they moved over to IC in order to pick up the slack following HST withdrawal.

The point I am making is that the 810s are going to be touted as a huge capacity boost for IC services. Whilst, strictly speaking, there may very well be an overall capacity increase when comparing the 810/360 combination to the HST/222 one, the fact that services that used to be 8-car in the HST days will be operated by 5-car ones (despite the high number of seats per 810) doesn’t make the achievement look as fantastic as it seems at first thought. This is compounded by the fact that 33 units is not sufficient to have half the services running as 10-car: as I said before, having 31 units to run such a timetable isn’t feasible.

What was the frequency of the HSTs? Shorter trains more often can provide more capacity overall.

 

[Topological]

In perhaps the best days of the HST there were 2 services per hour, 1 to Nottingham and 1 to Sheffield. The introduction of the Turbostars meant that the HST followed a Turbostar into Leicester and then the HST departed. Passengers from the Turbostar were able to connect cross-platform to the HST to get a faster journey. That was perhaps my favourite timetable of the South MML and I oft thought it would be a good system to use elsewhere when slow and fast trains share the same lines.

i am not sure whether the fact that there were 2 8 car HSTs + 2 3 car Turbostars really means there were 20 cars per hour on the MML, but presumably that is what will be offered by 4 5-car 810s.

 

[Nottingham59]

Deleted. (Posted in wrong thread)