Penalty Fare

[ElJB1661]

I was recently travelling home from work in Manchester and had managed to get an early finish so was on the train an hour earlier (still the same ticket regarding peak/off-peak rules/prices)

When tickets were checked midway through the journey I was told my ticket was invalid due to getting a different time train and therefore could be issued a penalty fare. I was asked if I was willing to provide my details but I refused as I didn’t understand why I was being issued this when there was a ticket to be shown.

I would just like to know if there is a way to still issue the penalty fare since the barcode on my ticket was scanned, even though I didn’t provide any further details?

Thank you

 

[AlterEgo]

What ticket did you have exactly (Advance/Off Peak/Anytime), from where to where, and which train were you on - the time and date? It's important to establish if you committed an offence first before we figure out if the train company will threaten proceedings by post.

Penalty Fares cannot be issued retrospectively, but court action can be taken, or threatened, up to six months after the fact.

 

[ElJB1661]

It was an advanced single from Manchester Piccadilly at 16:33, but the ticket was bought for 17:33

Can they find details through scanning the barcode then?

 

[skyhigh]

Can they find details through scanning the barcode then?

The short answer is yes, probably.

 

[ElJB1661]

The short answer is yes, probably.

And they will inevitably be in contact how?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

What ticket did you have exactly (Advance/Off Peak/Anytime), from where to where, and which train were you on - the time and date? It's important to establish if you committed an offence first before we figure out if the train company will threaten proceedings by post.

Penalty Fares cannot be issued retrospectively, but court action can be taken, or threatened, up to six months after the fact.

What ticket did you have exactly (Advance/Off Peak/Anytime), from where to where, and which train were you on - the time and date? It's important to establish if you committed an offence first before we figure out if the train company will threaten proceedings by post.

Penalty Fares cannot be issued retrospectively, but court action can be taken, or threatened, up to six months after the fact.

It was an advanced single from Manchester Piccadilly at 16:33 but the ticket was bought for 17:33

Can you shed some light on what the issue was here (if there even was one?)

 

[Darandio]

It was an advanced single from Manchester Piccadilly at 16:33 but the ticket was bought for 17:33

Can you shed some light on what the issue was here (if there even was one?)

You didn't have a valid ticket for the service you travelled on. An advance ticket is generally only valid on the train specified.

 

[AlterEgo]

And they will inevitably be in contact how?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==



It was an advanced single from Manchester Piccadilly at 16:33 but the ticket was bought for 17:33

Can you shed some light on what the issue was here (if there even was one?)

Your ticket is an Advance and is only valid on the 1633.

The company may decide not to pursue the matter, but if you refused to pay a Penalty Fare it is quite probable they will contact you to threaten proceedings while allowing you to dispose of the matter out of court for (usually) about £100 plus the unpaid fare.

You should really have paid the Penalty Fare, as it was certainly due, and I am afraid you have left yourself open to the threat of criminal proceedings for the offence instead.

 

[skyhigh]

And they will inevitably be in contact how?

Post or email.

 

[ElJB1661]

Your ticket is an Advance and is only valid on the 1633.

The company may decide not to pursue the matter, but if you refused to pay a Penalty Fare it is quite probable they will contact you to threaten proceedings while allowing you to dispose of the matter out of court for (usually) about £100 plus the unpaid fare.

You should really have paid the Penalty Fare, as it was certainly due, and I am afraid you have left yourself open to the threat of criminal proceedings for the offence instead.

I wasn’t issued anything there and then she just asked if I was willing to provide more details and I said no without knowing what the problem was, to which the woman just walked away …

 

[skyhigh]

and I said no without knowing what the problem was

But your first post says -

I was told my ticket was invalid due to getting a different time train and therefore would be issued a penalty fare

So it sounds like it was explained why your ticket was invalid and that a penalty fare would be issued?

 

[ElJB1661]

But your first post says -

So it sounds like it was explained why your ticket was invalid and that a penalty fare would be issued?

Yes I was told it was invalid but when I asked why it wasn’t explained

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If the OP did not provide details (e.g. name and address), what is the likelihood of the company pursuing anything further?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

Yes I was told it was invalid but when I asked why it wasn’t explained

But you now know why

 

[ElJB1661]

If the OP did not provide details (e.g. name and address), what is the likelihood of the company pursuing anything further?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==


But you now know why

I know now… I didn’t understand why I couldn’t use the ticket on a different time train that’s all. I was in no way rude to the woman I was just trying to understand why there was an issue as I have done this in the past and it has never been a problem.

I am not looking for an argument I am purely seeking advice and information from people who may know more than I do.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I know now… I didn’t understand why I couldn’t use the ticket on a different time train that’s all. I was in no way rude to the woman I was just trying to understand why there was an issue as I have done this in the past and it has never been a problem.

I am not looking for an argument I am purely seeking advice and information from people who may know more than I do.

No one is saying you were rude

And you've come to the right place for advice

 

[ElJB1661]

No one is saying you were rude

And you've come to the right place for advice

Thank you.

So from what you previously mentioned about me not giving any further details due to lack of understanding/explanation at the time… you don’t seem to think they will be in touch?

 

[Fokx]

The cheaper the ticket, the greater the restrictions

 

[ElJB1661]

Can anyone also shed any light on why this has been fine every other time I have done this but not now?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

The cheaper the ticket, the greater the restrictions

That makes sense. For future reference which ticket would I need to have for this to be ok?

 

[Llanigraham]

Your ticket is an Advance and is only valid on the 1633.

The company may decide not to pursue the matter, but if you refused to pay a Penalty Fare it is quite probable they will contact you to threaten proceedings while allowing you to dispose of the matter out of court for (usually) about £100 plus the unpaid fare.

You should really have paid the Penalty Fare, as it was certainly due, and I am afraid you have left yourself open to the threat of criminal proceedings for the offence instead.

I think you've got that the wrong way around.
They caught the 1633 but their ticket was actually only valid on the 1733 See post #3

 

[ElJB1661]

I think you've got that the wrong way around.
They caught the 1633 but their ticket was actually only valid on the 1733 See post #3

That’s correct

 

[Fokx]

Can anyone also shed any light on why this has been fine every other time I have done this but not now?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==


That makes sense. For future reference which ticket would I need to have for this to be ok?

Depends on where you’re travelling to on the 1633/1733 and if you travelled the other direction in the morning.

Generally a combination of anytime or off-peak single/return.

 

[ElJB1661]

Depends on where you’re travelling to on the 1633/1733 and if you travelled the other direction in the morning.

Generally a combination of anytime or off-peak single/return.

I only travelled on the 16:33 not the 17:33 as planned from Piccadilly to Bolton and yes I made this journey from Bolton to Piccadilly this morning.

So when I buy my tickets online and no other option comes up what do I do then?

 

[Fokx]

I only travelled on the 16:33 not the 17:33 as planned from Piccadilly to Bolton and yes I made this journey from Bolton to Piccadilly this morning.

So when I buy my tickets online and no other option comes up what do I do then?

You’ll want an Anytime day return as your journey on the return is within the Greater Manchester peak (between 4pm and 6:30pm)

If you click on the fare offered it gives you different options (and therefore different restrictions!. I’m going to assume here you’re using Trainline?

All fare options are offered on all apps.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

You’ll want an Anytime day return as your journey on the return is within the Greater Manchester peak (between 4pm and 6:30pm)

If you click on the fare offered it gives you different options (and therefore different restrictions!. I’m going to assume here you’re using Trainline?

All fare options are offered on all apps.

To add to this the cost of the above fare is £7.90

 

[ElJB1661]

You’ll want an Anytime day return as your journey on the return is within the Greater Manchester peak (between 4pm and 6:30pm)

If you click on the fare offered it gives you different options (and therefore different restrictions!. I’m going to assume here you’re using Trainline?

All fare options are offered on all apps.

Thank you.

I’ve just never had a problem with buying the tickets I’ve bought … thank you for your help though.

Yes I usually use Trainline

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes I was told it was invalid but when I asked why it wasn’t explained

Hi - this is why see the T&C for that type of ticket (which would have been flagged when you bought it somewhere I would think)

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

specifically:

4. When and where the ticket can be used​

4.1 Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).

As to why this has not happened to you before it could be a number of reasons:

eg
- you've not had an Advance ticket but you have had a more flexible ticket like Off Peak or Anytime that was valid on a selection of different trains (or every train in the case of an Anytime ticket)
or
- the staff member did not check your ticket carefully and thus did not notice it was wrong
or
- you were on the correct time on your ticket if it was an Advance ticket

So - if you get contacted by them at some future point either by post or e-mail, head back here for advice on how to deal with that - but be sure NOT to ignore it - as otherwise they will simply escalate matters to court prosecution - had you paid the penalty fare that would have prevented that risk, at a fee of £50 + a new ticket however.

 

[ElJB1661]

Hi - this is why see the T&C for that type of ticket (which would have been flagged when you bought it somewhere I would think)

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

specifically:



As to why this has not happened to you before it could be a number of reasons:

eg
- you've not had an Advance ticket but you have had a more flexible ticket like Off Peak or Anytime that was valid on a selection of different trains (or every train in the case of an Anytime ticket)
or
- the staff member did not check your ticket carefully and thus did not notice it was wrong
or
- you were on the correct time on your ticket if it was an Advance ticket

So - if you get contacted by them at some future point either by post or e-mail, head back here for advice on how to deal with that - but be sure NOT to ignore it - as otherwise they will simply escalate matters to court prosecution - had you paid the penalty fare that would have prevented that risk, at a fee of £50 + a new ticket however.

Thank you for this information. It was really helpful.

Again, I wasn’t issued with a fare there and then, I was asked to provide more details and when I asked for more information first the lady just walked away. I did mentioned buying a new ticket and she said she was unable to do that on her machine …

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

Hi - this is why see the T&C for that type of ticket (which would have been flagged when you bought it somewhere I would think)

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

specifically:



As to why this has not happened to you before it could be a number of reasons:

eg
- you've not had an Advance ticket but you have had a more flexible ticket like Off Peak or Anytime that was valid on a selection of different trains (or every train in the case of an Anytime ticket)
or
- the staff member did not check your ticket carefully and thus did not notice it was wrong
or
- you were on the correct time on your ticket if it was an Advance ticket

So - if you get contacted by them at some future point either by post or e-mail, head back here for advice on how to deal with that - but be sure NOT to ignore it - as otherwise they will simply escalate matters to court prosecution - had you paid the penalty fare that would have prevented that risk, at a fee of £50 + a new ticket however.

Also… what is the timescale I should expect to hear from them in?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

You’ll want an Anytime day return as your journey on the return is within the Greater Manchester peak (between 4pm and 6:30pm)

If you click on the fare offered it gives you different options (and therefore different restrictions!. I’m going to assume here you’re using Trainline?

All fare options are offered on all apps.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==



To add to this the cost of the above fare is £7.90

Thank you

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Also… what is the timescale I should expect to hear from them in?

Anytime up to 6 months I believe

 

[ElJB1661]

Anytime up to 6 months I believe

Thank you very much

 

[RPI]

Whether you hear more varies by TOC (Train Operating Company), Northern do seem to be one of those that do chase these things up via the digital ticket going by some of the posts on these forums, it's quite easy for them to do as even if you buy as a guest the ticket is linked to your bank card.
They may also look at previous journeys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==

Anytime up to 6 months I believe

Unless there are lots of other irregularities in the booking history, then the civil court is an option or the more serious fraud allegation (I'm not suggesting for one second though that travelling on an Advance ticket on the wrong train can be classed as fraud!)

 

[ElJB1661]

Whether you hear more varies by TOC (Train Operating Company), Northern do seem to be one of those that do chase these things up via the digital ticket going by some of the posts on these forums, it's quite easy for them to do as even if you buy as a guest the ticket is linked to your bank card.
They may also look at previous journeys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2024 ==


Unless there are lots of other irregularities in the booking history, then the civil court is an option or the more serious fraud allegation (I'm not suggesting for one second though that travelling on an Advance ticket on the wrong train can be classed as fraud!)

Thank you for this.

And if/when they are in touch … would this be with the bog standard fine to begin with?

 

[RPI]

Thank you for this.

And if/when they are in touch … would this be with the bog standard fine to begin with?

The best you can do if you get correspondence from them is to come on here and the experts will advise accordingly