Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Goldfish62]

The previous MD of SWT was very proud of the seat handles on his 707’s which allowed 2 to hold on without touching hands- not so on these 701’s . No lessons learned

It wasn't his idea. It was a standard feature of the lowest form of ironing boards. Fortunately SWR have learned lessons and gone for the improved ironing boards with deeper cushions.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The previous MD of SWT was very proud of the seat handles on his 707’s which allowed 2 to hold on without touching hands- not so on these 701’s . No lessons learned

They have this quite unique "3 set pole setup" in the vestibule instead. This is exclusive to the 701s it seems, no other aventra has this to my knowledge.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They have this quite unique "3 set pole setup" in the vestibule instead. This is exclusive to the 701s it seems, no other aventra has this to my knowledge.

Not sure thats conducive to good passenger flow

 

[norbitonflyer]

Not sure thats conducive to good passenger flow

Or getting large luggage, bikes, or baby buggies on board. Are these obstructions present at the entrance nearest the wheelchair bays?

 

[D365]

What makes you think that?

All units must be put through a number of modifications in order to be ready for service. But not a lot of units have yet received the full suite of modifications. It’s a work in progress.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

All units must be put through a number of modifications in order to be ready for service. But not a lot of units have yet received the full suite of modifications. It’s a work in progress.

Oh I thought they were done before they got stored. Fair enough.

 

[hwl]

It wasn't his idea. It was a standard feature of the lowest form of ironing boards. Fortunately SWR have learned lessons and gone for the improved ironing boards with deeper cushions.

Indeed mk1 iron board had them over a decade ago and 707s need lots of seat back grab handles because of the the problems attaching anything to the ceiling. (not a problems with Aventras in general and as the three pole arrangement shows to extreme in this case)

 

[DelW]

Deliberately blocking entry to service of new trains is on dodgy grounds legally I'd have thought. Striking, overtime bans and working to rule are the only legal forms of industrial action, are they not?

If full fleet introduction is dependent on further union agreements, there's potentially scope to delay that without it being construed as industrial action.
But this is no more than speculation on my part, so I don't want to push the point any further. We'll find out in due course.

 

[hwl]

They have this quite unique "3 set pole setup" in the vestibule instead. This is exclusive to the 701s it seems, no other aventra has this to my knowledge.

The result of improving standing hold requirements to be able to legitimately claim standing capacity figure - a result of the 707 procurement lessons learned "You mean zee passengers need something to hold on to? You didn't explicitly state that in writing...".

 

[Bumpkin]

Or getting large luggage, bikes, or baby buggies on board. Are these obstructions present at the entrance nearest the wheelchair bays?

I took this picture back in November and it shows one of the bike or wheelchair spaces (can’t remember which) with no pole visible on the left by the tip up seats.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Nice to see they have some logic. I do like the interiors of the 701s, the colour contrasting is really nice

 

[Class450/4DES]

The previous MD of SWT was very proud of the seat handles on his 707’s which allowed 2 to hold on without touching hands- not so on these 701’s . No lessons learned

I see.

 

[PG]

They have this quite unique "3 set pole setup" in the vestibule instead. This is exclusive to the 701s it seems, no other aventra has this to my knowledge.

Thanks for that photo. I wonder how long it'll be before they decide to do away with the middle pole given the standing capacity is no longer of the essence?

 

[Snow1964]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that many of the accepted units are "entry into service" ready. Let alone the stored units which may not even be ready for training. Certainly it's only a very limited number of units that are currently ready for the "soft launch".

I am not sure why they would do test runs, and fault free running, then put into store without any required remediation.

I must have been mistaken then, my understanding is the cycling them though Eastleigh was to bring them upto service standard.

My understanding is it is not so much lack of updated units, as training delays that are delaying things. SWR suburban diagrams tend to be quite complicated so not easy to find suitable services if don't want problems at staff changeovers. Many suburban diagrams see multiple crew changes during the day.

Even if brought 1 new unit from store every other day (not unreasonable as return trip could take an old unit), would then have about 50 units by Easter. But would need about dozen crews fully trained each week to keep up, but it's not keeping up, need the trained crews to be ahead so they can take out a 701 if the incoming train is formed of one because so many crew changes take place at Waterloo during turnarounds.

.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Many suburban diagrams see multiple crew changes during the day.

Quite so. Something not always understood outside the industry. There are strict limits on how many consecutive trips a given crew can make over the same suburban route, as to spend eg; all day, working say, Waterloo/Chessington could lead to complacency/fatigue/mistakes. Many suburban trains at Waterloo (main line side) did/do of course switch routes at the point of arriving/departing Waterloo, but this (historically) was about the timetable and platform availability, but it does allow a crew to stay with a particular unit(s) for perhaps half a shift, before they need to take their break.

The point here being, that during the 701 introduction, there will always be a need for substantially more crews to have 701 traction knowledge, than there are actually 701's in service, which can ironically also lead to some losing their competency if the whole scenario drags on and on, and not all those trained get their hands on the type in service. Bit of a catch 22 !

 

[43096]

Quite so. Something not always understood outside the industry. There are strict limits on how many consecutive trips a given crew can make over the same suburban route, as to spend eg; all day, working say, Waterloo/Chessington could lead to complacency/fatigue/mistakes. Many suburban trains at Waterloo (main line side) did/do of course switch routes at the point of arriving/departing Waterloo, but this (historically) was about the timetable and platform availability, but it does allow a crew to stay with a particular unit(s) for perhaps half a shift, before they need to take their break.

The point here being, that during the 701 introduction, there will always be a need for substantially more crews to have 701 traction knowledge, than there are actually 701's in service, which can ironically also lead to some losing their competency if the whole scenario drags on and on, and not all those trained get their hands on the type in service. Bit of a catch 22 !

Managing this sort of transition is what the industry is paid to do.

The way it gets talked about you’d be forgiven for thinking that it was all too difficult and we should just stick with the old trains. It’s as if there’s never been a new trains introduction ever before.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Spotted in Clapham Junction

https://www.reddit.com/r/uktrains/s/MxOGhFD5Yg

 

[Goldfish62]

Quite so. Something not always understood outside the industry. There are strict limits on how many consecutive trips a given crew can make over the same suburban route, as to spend eg; all day, working say, Waterloo/Chessington could lead to complacency/fatigue/mistakes. Many suburban trains at Waterloo (main line side) did/do of course switch routes at the point of arriving/departing Waterloo, but this (historically) was about the timetable and platform availability, but it does allow a crew to stay with a particular unit(s) for perhaps half a shift, before they need to take their break.

The point here being, that during the 701 introduction, there will always be a need for substantially more crews to have 701 traction knowledge, than there are actually 701's in service, which can ironically also lead to some losing their competency if the whole scenario drags on and on, and not all those trained get their hands on the type in service. Bit of a catch 22 !

I don't understand why this should all be a particular issue. It's not as if there's never been any new trains introduced on the South Western before (although some people seem to want to ensure that it never happens again). Surely they just do what they've done in the past, most recently with the 707s.

 

[MotCO]

I took this picture back in November and it shows one of the bike or wheelchair spaces (can’t remember which) with no pole visible on the left by the tip up seats.

Maybe that's before the 'modification' (smiley face emoji)

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Managing this sort of transition is what the industry is paid to do.

Surely they just do what they've done in the past, most recently with the 707s.

Not trying to excuse the present mess in any way, and you are both very correct in what you say (I was very well placed to understand the whole matter at hand - in a previous life/stock transition sense), but was just confirming some of what Snow1964 had mentioned and tried to explain some of the issues that did, in my time, and will (701) quite likely have some impact on the present situation, that is all.

On a personal note I have genuine faith in some of those behind the scenes (those at the coal faces of their respective aspects of the job) to have prepared various scenario's in preparation for the 701 introduction, which is why I am still bemused about the ongoing delays. I do get the feeling there is something else going on here (701's), above and beyond any paper introduction plan/cascade etc., but what that might be, I am in no better position than yourselves to understand...

 

[GEC465]

Does it mention a date. Love the "scrap them" joke

Spotted in Clapham Junction

 

[Whiggism]

Have the onboard announcements on these trains been changed from Celia to Elinor?

 

[Goldfish62]

Not trying to excuse the present mess in any way, and you are both very correct in what you say (I was very well placed to understand the whole matter at hand - in a previous life/stock transition sense), but was just confirming some of what Snow1964 had mentioned and tried to explain some of the issues that did, in my time, and will (701) quite likely have some impact on the present situation, that is all.

On a personal note I have genuine faith in some of those behind the scenes (those at the coal faces of their respective aspects of the job) to have prepared various scenario's in preparation for the 701 introduction, which is why I am still bemused about the ongoing delays. I do get the feeling there is something else going on here (701's), above and beyond any paper introduction plan/cascade etc., but what that might be, I am in no better position than yourselves to understand...

Agreed re the ongoing delay.

I was reading in Modern Railways that the Aventra production line finishes later this month. I wonder if any 701s will actually manage to enter service before the last one is built.

 

[43066]

If full fleet introduction is dependent on further union agreements, there's potentially scope to delay that without it being construed as industrial action.
But this is no more than speculation on my part, so I don't want to push the point any further. We'll find out in due course.

On a personal note I have genuine faith in some of those behind the scenes (those at the coal faces of their respective aspects of the job) to have prepared various scenario's in preparation for the 701 introduction, which is why I am still bemused about the ongoing delays. I do get the feeling there is something else going on here (701's),

There isn’t much of an incentive for the unions to be remotely cooperative around training agreements for a new fleet while they remain in dispute with the employer. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I have no inside knowledge as to what is going on at SWR, but it would be naive to imagine the industrial relations situation won’t be a factor.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Does it mention a date. Love the "scrap them" joke

Idk, I just saw it on reddit

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Spotted in Clapham Junction

Not many people have caught onto this but this shows quite a lot of information about the soft launch:
-The services will run from 1000 to 1600
-The services will be running to and from Waterloo and Windsor.
-They will be the 10 car variants
-The trains will originate from Wimbledon.
-They will use the DOO method of operation for the soft launch.

 

[Mainsideman]

No. The RMT raised issues with SWRs proposed methods of operation for guards and platform staff. Largely because they were proposing different things to different grades. That was resolved within weeks of it being escalated though. I don't know why the soft launch was postponed from before Christmas. The soft launch is agreed with both unions, with the final method of operation and training plans to be agreed based on how that goes.

So the method of work could change between soft launch and full launch? Surely a soft launch should be used to train the crew?

 

[Goldfish62]

So the method of work could change between soft launch and full launch? Surely a soft launch should be used to train the crew?

In the photo of that document someone posted above it says, "During the soft launch services can be used for the purposes of guard training".

 

[DelW]

Not many people have caught onto this but this shows quite a lot of information about the soft launch:
-The services will run from 1000 to 1600
-The services will be running to and from Waterloo and Windsor.
-They will be the 10 car variants
-The trains will originate from Wimbledon.
-They will use the DOO method of operation for the soft launch.

The document pictured in post 7097 refers (twice) to Driver Controlled Operation ( DCO) - not DOO.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The document pictured in post 7097 refers (twice) to Driver Controlled Operation ( DCO) - not DOO.

Oh I assumed they were both the same thing, what's the difference? Is it this "guard does passenger service duties" agreement that was made a while ago?