Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[The_Train]

I'm assuming this was it, out Monday night, back Wednesday night

Realtime Trains | 5Q47 2116 Old Dalby to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot | 04/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q47 2116 departure from Old Dalby to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot on 04/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q48 2119 Doncaster Carr Iep Depot to Old Dalby | 06/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q48 2119 departure from Doncaster Carr Iep Depot to Old Dalby on 06/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Good spot thanks for confirming

 

[Aspen90]

2025 now… They’ll be old tech before they’re on the rails!

https://twitter.com/EastMidRailway/status/1740852559894483289

Anno @Anno93160824
·
17h
@EastMidRailway
when are the new aurora trains being brought into service

East Midlands Railway (EMR) @EastMidRailway
Hi, after testing and training, this is likely to be early 2025, but we don't have a definite time frame yet ^DS
9:49 PM · Dec 29, 2023

 

[QSK19]

2025 now… They’ll be old tech before they’re on the rails!

Well, at this rate, their lease will expire* before they even enter service!

* (I believe the lease expires in August 2027?)

 

[STINT47]

Well, at this rate, their lease will expire* before they even enter service!

Rumours say that if the lease has expired they'll go for scrap. Cut out the middle man.

 

[800001]

Rumours say that if the lease has expired they'll go for scrap. Cut out the middle man.

Should of saved that for April 1st.

810001 due to move to Hitachi Merchant Park next week to start main line testing between Darlington and York.

 

[QSK19]

Should of saved that for April 1st.

810001 due to move to Hitachi Merchant Park next week to start main line testing between Darlington and York.

I’m sure most people will have forgotten by 1st April; so it could still be used

Good news about the mainline testing commencement - hopefully some videos with pan up operation will follow!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

2025 now… They’ll be old tech before they’re on the rails!

Who’s said that?

 

[JonathanH]

Who’s said that?

Postings back in November suggested August 2024 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...roduction-updates.195052/page-69#post-6507196 - but still scope for further slippage.

 

[Aspen90]

Who’s said that?

EMR themselves this morning on their twitter account to passengers asking when the dirty and disgraceful 222’s will be replaced!

 

[JonathanH]

EMR themselves this morning on their twitter account to passengers asking when the dirty and disgraceful 222’s will be replaced!

https://twitter.com/EastMidRailway/status/1740852559894483289

Anno @Anno93160824
·
17h
@EastMidRailway
when are the new aurora trains being brought into service

East Midlands Railway (EMR) @EastMidRailway
Hi, after testing and training, this is likely to be early 2025, but we don't have a definite time frame yet ^DS
9:49 PM · Dec 29, 2023
·
156 Views

 

[dereksingh291]

So the 810s for EMR are likely to enter service in early 2025 but also what will happen with the 222s once they’ve been replaced?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So the 810s for EMR are likely to enter service in early 2025 but also what will happen with the 222s once they’ve been replaced?

It’s been asked many many times and the answer still is that no one knows yet, but you may enjoy a browse of the general in the Class 222 Future threads over in Speculative Discussion which I will link

What's going to happen to the Class 222's after the Class 810's replace them?

If needed, Please move Will XC take them over? I know that GC are taking the Avanti 221's so not to GC. Or will scotrail take them for the inter7city trains or will it be scrap?

www.railforums.co.uk

Future uses for class 220s/221s and 222s?

Only logical moves imo are XC? mods note - split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/222-4-car-sets-to-become-5-car-by-may-22.225822/ SWR to replace the aging 158's or South Eastern to work the Uckfield services. I think XC will get the Avanti ones.

www.railforums.co.uk

A few insiders (quite a few at other TOCs, mind) seem to think they’ll leave EMR for ScotRail, but nothing’s been confirmed so best to take it as messroom gossip until something is.

 

[InTheEastMids]

https://twitter.com/EastMidRailway/status/1740852559894483289

Another new train procurement project moves into the "Under-promise AND under-deliver" phase. Hurrah!

 

[Killingworth]

In October 2020 the Aurora was announced, due to start testing in mid 2022 and enter service in early 2023. By June 2022 route training was to be late 2023 and 2024 entry into service.

All in service by late 2025 is still possible, about 2 years late.

They will be on diesel through Leicester for some time and at least 5,, maybe nearer 10, years to Sheffield. Chris Grayling's decision to order bi-modes hasn't been so daft after all!

Of course the delayed introduction has a knock on effect for those wanting to make use of cascaded 222s.

 

[Roger B]

In October 2020 the Aurora was announced, due to start testing in mid 2022 and enter service in early 2023. By June 2022 route training was to be late 2023 and 2024 entry into service.

All in service by late 2025 is still possible, about 2 years late.

They will be on diesel through Leicester for some time and at least 5,, maybe nearer 10, years to Sheffield. Chris Grayling's decision to order bi-modes hasn't been so daft after all!

Of course the delayed introduction has a knock on effect for those wanting to make use of cascaded 222s.

Yes, but aren't Grayling's decisions the primary cause of the extended delay in electrifying through Leicester and to Sheffield, rather than some wise and insightful precautions?

 

[Killingworth]

Yes, but aren't Grayling's decisions the primary cause of the extended delay in electrifying through Leicester and to Sheffield, rather than some wise and insightful precautions?

Chickens and eggs, but at least we should have some new trains running in service next year.

 

[QSK19]

They will be on diesel through Leicester for some time and at least 5,, maybe nearer 10, years to Sheffield. Chris Grayling's decision to order bi-modes hasn't been so daft after all!

However, his decision not being as daft as it seemed at the time was a mere fluke. As reflected by previous response to your post, his decisions were the cause of the ridiculous U turning (and U turning on the U turning) pertaining to MML electrification.

And before people start getting excited at the prospect of a Labour government suddenly making things better, let’s not forget that, under the last Labour government, only 10 miles of railway were electrified (source, page 3: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05907/SN05907.pdf ). I can’t see a (what looks like invitable) Labour government suddenly approving and getting on with full electrification.

Back OT, introduction of the 810s in 2025, even when taking mitigating factors into account, is quite frankly ridiculous and unacceptable.

 

[Aspen90]

However, his decision not being as daft as it seemed at the time was a mere fluke. As reflected by previous response to your post, his decisions were the cause of the ridiculous U turning (and U turning on the U turning) pertaining to MML electrification.

And before people start getting excited at the prospect of a Labour government suddenly making things better, let’s not forget that, under the last Labour government, only 10 miles of railway were electrified (source, page 3: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05907/SN05907.pdf ). I can’t see a (what looks like invitable) Labour government suddenly approving and getting on with full electrification.

Back OT, introduction of the 810s in 2025, even when taking mitigating factors into account, is quite frankly ridiculous and unacceptable.

Agree. If it was an airline they’d have dropped the order (which EMR are entitled to do at this point as per the contract) and ordered elsewhere. Same old story, Avanti and LNER prioritised and the poor relation the MML is neglected again. Just look at the order for 10 CAF tri-modes LNER have placed. They have money thrown at them!

 

[Benjwri]

And before people start getting excited at the prospect of a Labour government suddenly making things better, let’s not forget that, under the last Labour government, only 10 miles of railway were electrified

Although I agree with the message that we should expect a labour government to suddenly start electrifying the railways.

However your statement I would say is wholly unfair. If your counting projects completed during their government, you can't forget HS1 was completed. However its also worth mentioning the Labour government announced the Great Western Mainline electrification, started construction of the Elizabeth Line and were the ones to start the initial assessments into the possibility of electrifying the MML and constructing HS2.

It's not entirely fair to judge a government on what its priorities might be based on its actions more than 14 years ago, when the world and global priorities were very different.

 

[Mikey C]

I remember when the concern was that NR wouldn't be able to increase the line speeds of the existing southern MML electrification fast enough, and that the 810s would initially be restricted to 100mph or would have to operate on diesel under the wires...

 

[duffield]

I remember when the concern was that NR wouldn't be able to increase the line speeds of the existing southern MML electrification fast enough, and that the 810s would initially be restricted to 100mph or would have to operate on diesel under the wires...

So is it correct to say that the southern MML OHLE upgrades will all be completed, and the OHLE will be live as far as Wigston South before the first 810 runs in passenger service - i.e. the first 810 passenger services will definitely be running on OHLE all the way from St. Pancras to Wigston South?

Or is there still some doubt about this sequence?

 

[Aspen90]

So is it correct to say that the southern MML OHLE upgrades will all be completed, and the OHLE will be live as far as Wigston South before the first 810 runs in passenger service - i.e. the first 810 passenger services will definitely be running on OHLE all the way from St. Pancras to Wigston South?

Or is there still some doubt about this sequence?

I believe this to be the case - now, what with the further delay. They’re throwing the OLE up fast at the minute. I was talking to the ECO recently and the plan is for wires up to Wigston South junction, and then the gap for Leicester due to the low bridge but I was surprised when they said it won’t restart until Syston!

 

[Roast Veg]

It will certainly simplify the 810 introduction if they can just do a single power changeover at Wigston from the get-go.

 

[AndrewJM70]

2025 now? Every year that goes by they get delayed by another year. Totally unacceptable especially given the clapped out stock that is running at the moment.

 

[QSK19]

It will certainly simplify the 810 introduction if they can just do a single power changeover at Wigston from the get-go.

Indeed, I suppose that is the good thing about the delay to 2025 - hopefully the OHLE works will have been completed in order to involve a single power switchover each way.

 

[Mikey C]

2025 now? Every year that goes by they get delayed by another year. Totally unacceptable especially given the clapped out stock that is running at the moment.

The 222s are only clapped out because they've been allowed to get that way.

It does feel that the MML has a double whammy at the moment, of 222s allowed to get shabby because they will soon be departing, and the 360s which the previous owner allowed to get shabby (and for which the promised refurbishment hasn't happened), as neither are old stock.

 

[43066]

So is it correct to say that the southern MML OHLE upgrades will all be completed, and the OHLE will be live as far as Wigston South before the first 810 runs in passenger service - i.e. the first 810 passenger services will definitely be running on OHLE all the way from St. Pancras to Wigston South?

Or is there still some doubt about this sequence?

Also depends on wiring upgrades south of Bedford allowing up to 125mph operation (there isn’t much 125 but most of the mileage on the fasts is >100 on that section of the route).

The initial plan was to run the 810s on diesel under the wires south of Bedford, to avoid constraining the operating speed of the new fleet, albeit with the slippage of the 810 introduction it might now be that the wires will be upgraded in time for their introduction.

@Bald Rick may know the latest on wiring upgrade timescales.

 

[Supercoss]

810s will run on overhead power from St Pancras to just North of Cricklewood station the run on Diesel power to Bedford in down direction , into London Up , pan down at Bedford until just North of Cricklewood , 5miles 30ch to be exact where line speed changes from 95 to 110 mph with a 100 mph restriction for EMU.
ApCo Balise ( automatic power control) gubbins and signage will be installed to mark raise/ lower pan area.
this will be the case until catenary is upgraded, around 200 locations require adjustment for higher speed electric operation.
St Pancras will be diesel free.
Most likely first revenue use of 810 will be before this work is completed even with some large weekend possessions in 2024 .

 

[Bald Rick]

AIUI all the OLE125 work south of St Albans is being done next Christmas.

 

[Snow1964]

810s will run on overhead power from St Pancras to just North of Cricklewood station the run on Diesel power to Bedford in down direction , into London Up , pan down at Bedford until just North of Cricklewood , 5miles 30ch to be exact where line speed changes from 95 to 110 mph with a 100 mph restriction for EMU.
ApCo Balise ( automatic power control) gubbins and signage will be installed to mark raise/ lower pan area.
this will be the case until catenary is upgraded, around 200 locations require adjustment for higher speed electric operation.
St Pancras will be diesel free.
Most likely first revenue use of 810 will be before this work is completed even with some large weekend possessions in 2024 .

There is quite a balancing act on how much time is saved.

Very roughly it is 44 miles from Cricklewood to Bedford, but few bits are never going to get to 125mph, so let's call it 40 miles max. A train doing 120-125mph could cover it in 20 minutes, more realistically 21-22 minutes as needs to accelerate to top speed once get on fast bit.

At 100mph, the 40 miles will take about 27 minutes, so about 5 minutes longer than 22 minutes. However there are few bits with speeds between 100 and 125mph due to curvature etc. Slowing down bit and then accelerating back to 125mph few times, is going to eat into another 1-2 minutes. So the upgrade to 125mph only really gains about 4 minutes.

I do not know if 810s can change system at 100+ mph on full power, I suspect in reality likely to be 20 seconds of coasting, during which bit of speed will be lost. To put it into perspective that 5 minutes, doesn't even restore the extra walk time to tube or road in front of St Pancras which was added when trains were moved outside the Barlow shed.