Intent to prosecute from Thameslink Railway on short fare

[Rumi]

Respected forum members,
I came across this forum whilst doing my research to resolve my short faring matter with GTR. The advice received by the members seems promising and I’ve found that most matters are resolved without the need of court intervention. I seek help on one such matter.

I was travelling from Luton to London Bridge on a Thameslink service on the 16th of October 2023, with a short ticket to Luton Airport parkway. During the journey I was caught by a revenue officer after crossing Luton airport parkway station. The officer asked me to open my train line app and questioned if I was travelling to London as shown in my travel history. Being my first time not buying a correct ticket I panicked and said no I was travelling to St Albans. He asked me two more times to confirm but I panicked again and said St Albans again. After which he took my train line details and my address and asked me to reply to the letter I’d receive. I got off at St Albans in front of him. And took the next train to London. Next day I panicked again and purchased a ticket from St Albans to London and used it to exit and St Pancras International.

I’ve now received a letter from GTR headed intent to prosecute, with a timeline of 14 days to reply.

Obviously I’m extremely disappointed and ashamed of my actions and now always buy the correct ticket. I’ve started drafting a response but should I tell them the entire story as it happened or avoid incriminating myself?

I would greatly appreciate your input on the matter.

Thank you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Rumi. Welcome to the forum. Could you post a copy of the letter you've now received on here? Please be sure to suitably obscure your name, address and case reference number (if any).

 

[John R]

Being my first time not buying a correct ticket

So are you saying that a closer investigation of your Trainline account won't find any other purchases which are often used by those short faring or doughnutting. (Luton to Luton Airport Parkway being one such ticket - West Hampstead to St Pancras being another )?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Being my first time not buying a correct ticket...

@Brissle Girl hints at, there's a big difference between it being the first time you've not bought the correct ticket(s) for the entirety of your journey(s), and the first time you've been caught doing so (if that is the actuality of the situation).

 

[spag23]

I was travelling from Luton to London Bridge on a Thameslink service on the 16th of October 2023, with a short ticket to Luton Airport parkway.

So how was the OP planning to exit at London Bridge?

Next day I panicked again and purchased a ticket from St Albans to London and used it to exit and St Pancras International.

For a journey that started in Luton, like the day before?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Being my first time not buying a correct ticket I panicked and said no I was travelling to St Albans. He asked me two more times to confirm but I panicked again and said St Albans again. After which he took my train line details and my address and asked me to reply to the letter I’d receive. I got off at St Albans in front of him. And took the next train to London.

When you got off the train at St Albans (in front of the officer), you said you took the next train to London. Did you buy a ticket?

Next day I panicked again and purchased a ticket from St Albans to London and used it to exit and St Pancras International.

So did you make the same journey the next day (i.e. Luton to London)? Did you buy a ticket for the whole journey or just from St Albans to London?

 

[Bertie the bus]

The officer asked me to open my train line app and questioned if I was travelling to London as shown in my travel history. Being my first time not buying a correct ticket I panicked and said no I was travelling to St Albans. He asked me two more times to confirm but I panicked again and said St Albans again. After which he took my train line details and my address and asked me to reply to the letter I’d receive. I got off at St Albans in front of him. And took the next train to London.

I don't understand the relevance of or rationale for doing this. You had a ticket from Luton - Luton Airport Parkway and travelled beyond the validity of your ticket so it doesn't matter whether you traveled to St Albans, London or Brighton you still committed an offence.

The only possible difference it could make is if they accept you were only travelling to St Albans they look to recover a slightly lower fare, either in court or in an out of court settlement.

 

[Rumi]

Thanks for you reply, I’ll post a copy of the letter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2023 ==

So are you saying that a closer investigation of your Trainline account won't find any other purchases which are often used by those short faring or doughnutting. (Luton to Luton Airport Parkway being one such ticket - West Hampstead to St Pancras being another )?

They will find ticket from Luton airport parkway to Luton. The journey I made to go to Luton.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2023 ==

When you got off the train at St Albans (in front of the officer), you said you took the next train to London. Did you buy a ticket?



So did you make the same journey the next day (i.e. Luton to London)? Did you buy a ticket for the whole journey or just from St Albans to London?

I bought a paper ticket. I again bought a trainline ticket. I was panicking and thought i should have a complete ticket to London. I can understand why It seems irrational.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm a bit confused about exactly what has happened. This is what I think has happened:

On day 1 you made a journey from Luton to London Bridge
You purchased a Luton to Luton Airport Parkway ticket on the Trainline app to get through the barriers at Luton
After the train had passed Luton Airport Parkway a ticket inspector came along. You told him your were travelling to St Albans
You got off the train at St Albans and boarded the next train to London Bridge

Questions:
How were you intending to get through the barriers at London Bridge? Had you, or were you going to purchase a ticket from somewhere like Blackfriars to London Bridge?
When you got off the train at St Albans did you leave the station or stay on the platform for the next train?
What ticket did you buy to travel from St Albans to London Bridge?
Did you buy this ticket on the Trainline app, from the ticket machine at St Albans or from the ticket office?

On day 2 you made a journey from Luton to London
You purchased a ticket for the whole journey

Questions:
How did you buy this ticket - on the Trainline app, from the ticket machine or the ticket office?

Thameslink will research your Trainline ticket purchasing history. Will this show regular purchases of Luton to Luton Airport Parkway tickets. Will it also show regaulr purchases of a short distance ticket at the other end of the journey, like Blackfriars to London Bridge?

 

[Rumi]

@Hadders I’ve attached the letter. Do i have reply by writing on the back side of the letter or i can type and print a response and attach with the letter?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2023 ==

I live in ladywell. The tap system was not working that day. I was gonna change my train from London bridge to ladywell. I bought a paper ticket at st albans. And then i panicked and thought i dont have a ticket on trainline so i bought another one on trainline for next day, which i didnt travel just used it to exit at st pancras the next day. But my ticket from Luton airport parkway and Luton to Luton airport parkway were purchased online on the app. Im willing to pay the the cost and settle the matter. Ive learned my lesson and realised how saving a few bucks is not worth the trouble and most importantly it’s a criminal offence.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The ‘tap’ system? I take it you mean the yellow Oyster card readers? At which station were they not working? Ladywell, in South London?? How does this relate to a trip from Luton?

 

[Rumi]

@Skimpot flyer I was coming from/going to ladywell after reaching london bridge. The ticket history on my trainline app showed previous completed journeys between luton and london bridge, hence the revenue officer concluded i was often travelling to london bridge and didnt have a correct ticket to london bridge.

 

[island]

@Skimpot flyer I was coming from/going to ladywell after reaching london bridge. The ticket history on my trainline app showed previous completed journeys between luton and london bridge, hence the revenue officer concluded i was often travelling to london bridge and didnt have a correct ticket to london bridge.

What ticket did you use to get to Ladywell?

 

[Rumi]

What ticket did you use to get to Ladywell?

I usually tap and tap out to london bridge. That day the oyster card reader was not working on Ladywell. I bought paper ticket to london bridge to go to luton from there but on my way back i didnt buy a ticket and didnt tap out. I thought i was being smart by saving a few bucks but clearly not.

 

[island]

I usually tap and tap out to london bridge. That day the oyster card reader was not working on Ladywell. I bought paper ticket to london bridge to go to luton from there but on my way back i didnt buy a ticket and didnt tap out. I thought i was being smart by saving a few bucks but clearly not.

None of the six Oyster readers at Ladywell, one of the first ungated stations you will reach taking Southeastern out of London, were working?

We are here to help, but you need to be honest with us, and right now I'm getting a strong sense of lies being layered on lies.

 

[RobertsN]

@Rumi , you may wish to re-upload the letter as your full name appears to be clearly visible on it.

 

[spag23]

Is everyone else getting exasperated by this drip feed of information? With the OP initially mentioning Luton, Luton Airport, London Bridge and St Pancras, I think we'd all been assuming a daily commute from Luton. But then the OP reveals they live in South London. Plus the ticket purchases (where made!) form an unfathomable cocktail of Trainline, Oyster and paper tickets. Only season tickets (usually the most economic commuting mode) are not mentioned.

 

[Rumi]

None of the six Oyster readers at Ladywell, one of the first ungated stations you will reach taking Southeastern out of London, were working?

We are here to help, but you need to be honest with us, and right now I'm getting a strong sense of lies being layered on lies.

Yes none of the readers were working that day and the person on ticket counter also told us that they are not working. There was even a paper attached to it saying sorry for inconvenience.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2023 ==

@Rumi , you may wish to re-upload the letter as your full name appears to be clearly visible on it.

Thank you.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yes none of the readers were working that day and the person on ticket counter also told us that they are not working. There was even a paper attached to it saying sorry for inconvenience.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2023 ==


Thank you.

But as previously mentioned, this has no relevance on your journey from Luton to London Bridge

 

[Rumi]

But as previously mentioned, this has no relevance on your journey from Luton to London Bridge

I understand. The trainline app will show them previous short journey from Luton airport parkway to Luton. And luton to Luton airport parkway. Should i agree to fare shorting on these occasions? Or mention that I was travelling from london bridge to ladywell as well?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I understand. The trainline app will show them previous short journey from Luton airport parkway to Luton. And luton to Luton airport parkway. Should i agree to fare shorting on these occasions? Or mention that I was travelling from london bridge to ladywell as well?

I wouldn't incriminate yourself further by including London Bridge to Ladywell. This is a different train company anyway and not operated by Thameslink

Otherwise, I would be truthful, sincere and apologetic as per @Hadders advice upthread

 

[Rumi]

I wouldn't incriminate yourself further by including London Bridge to Ladywell. This is a different train company anyway and not operated by Thameslink

Otherwise, I would be truthful, sincere and apologetic as per @Hadders advice upthread

@Hadders Should i agree to all tickets shorted on trainline response to them for this occasion and wait for their reply?

 

[Haywain]

You should reply to the specific matter addressed in the letter. You should do this truthfully, but there is no requirement to include information that has not been requested. It is likely that if you are offered a settlement it will take into account other occasions anyway but you don't have to help with that.

 

[Hadders]

I am still confused about what has happened here. I thought the journey was Luton to London Bridge but now it appears to be Luton to Ladywell.

@Hadders Should i agree to all tickets shorted on trainline response to them for this occasion and wait for their reply?

You should confine your reply to the incident that took place on 15th October because that is all the letter asks you to do.

I suggest posting your draft reply in this thread so that we can proof read it for you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I am still confused about what has happened here. I thought the journey was Luton to London Bridge but now it appears to be Luton to Ladywell.

Me too. Suspicion of "doughnutting" between the Luton stations all the way into central London, perhaps? This, of course, may not actually necessarily be the case, but it does seem that we are possibly being 'drip fed' relevant information.

 

[John R]

Me too. Suspicion of "doughnutting" between the Luton stations all the way into central London, perhaps? This, of course, may not actually necessarily be the case, but it does seem that we are possibly being 'drip fed' relevant information.

I'm confused too, and the problem is that if those trying to give advice don't have the whole story, we can't give the best advice to the OP.

 

[Rumi]

I am still confused about what has happened here. I thought the journey was Luton to London Bridge but now it appears to be Luton to Ladywell.


You should confine your reply to the incident that took place on 15th October because that is all the letter asks you to do.

I suggest posting your draft reply in this thread so that we can proof read it for you.

I’ve drafted a response. Do i have to write it in the letter or i can type and print the response and send it separately and keep the letter Ive received.
Thank you.


To
Prosecution Officer,
Govia Thameslink Railway

Date:
Reference number:



Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond to the letter dated 18th December 2023.

Firstly I’m ashamed, disappointed and regretful for my actions on the 15th of October 2023 where I boarded the train from Luton station without a valid ticket and failed to produce a valid ticket for my tourney when asked by the revenue officer.
I understand how my judgement was wrong and I’ve realised my mistake.

I’m committed to paying for and buying correct tickets and never make this mistake again and have started buying monthly travel passes.

I’d be grateful if you’d give me the opportunity to pay the correct fare and any additional cost incurred in the process without the need of court intervention.

Your sincerely,
Name

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2023 ==

Me too. Suspicion of "doughnutting" between the Luton stations all the way into central London, perhaps? This, of course, may not actually necessarily be the case, but it does seem that we are possibly being 'drip fed' relevant information.

Im sorry it came across like that. I didnt see the relevance of mentioning my travel to ladywell as it was not on trainline.

 

[John R]

Im sorry it came across like that. I didnt see the relevance of mentioning my travel to ladywell as it was not on trainline.

The whole journey is relevant. There was a very recent case of someone journeying from St Albans to Diss (in Norfolk). They short-fared from St Albans to London but had a valid ticket from London to Diss (a much longer journey). As it was considered one journey by the investigator, the settlement offer was based on the full fare again from St Albans to Diss. That maybe feels unfair, but the argument would be that if you don't play by the rules, you shouldn't be surprised if the other side chooses to be somewhat penal when you are found out, especially if it's an offer to keep the matter out of court.

 

[Rumi]

The whole journey is relevant. There was a very recent case of someone journeying from St Albans to Diss (in Norfolk). They short-fared from St Albans to London but had a valid ticket from London to Diss (a much longer journey). As it was considered one journey by the investigator, the settlement offer was based on the full fare again from St Albans to Diss. That maybe feels unfair, but the argument would be that if you don't play by the rules, you shouldn't be surprised if the other side chooses to be somewhat penal when you are found out, especially if it's an offer to keep the matter out of court.

I understand, I didn't realise the gravity of the situation until I found this forum. Thank you so much for guiding me through this.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

How exactly were you going to pay for the Ladywell - London Bridge (or vice-versa) part of the journey? You can’t tap out / tap in at London Bridge. There are no Oyster readers on the LBG platforms and you - by your own admission - did not have a valid ticket to pass through the barriers