Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston

[londonmidland]

From my experience, what should happen is that the service is advertised both on the screens and via the automated P.A system simultaneously, at the same time.

However, what sometimes happens is that if there is already an announcement playing for a different service/something else, its ‘slot’ will get missed and thus won’t get announced.

This has caught me out a few times, as I expect to hear it being announced, of which it has already been advertised on the screens.

 

[Krokodil]

Given sets being at wrong depots can cause issues the next day, this is hardly a decision taken lightly. Especially if the set is due for maintenance (e.g. only to go to a depot with a wheel lathe as has flat spots). Easily could end up with a diagram the next morning peak uncovered, if not a full day if not properly considered with due care.

In the case of GWR the restrictive Agility contract is undoubtedly part of the issue, along with the fact that there's not a common HSS fleet any more - I know that there were two different seating densities on GWR HSTs but it wasn't the end of the world if a high density set was sent to Penzance. Now you've got four subclasses of 80x to mess around with.

This is a problem everywhere. When the Elizabeth Line first started through running I took a train out to Shenfield then took GA back as I was late.

Just as I was getting to the end of the platform at Liverpool Street an unbelievable amount of passengers appeared and the crowd knocked me off my feet, I genuinely came centimetres from falling onto the tracks. Three people in Greater Anglia uniform walked past me just after I fell and didn’t even check on me, the disregard for safety by some staff is appalling at some London terminals.

Did you report the accident to someone? If an accident report isn't submitted then it'll never come to the attention of managment or regulators.

Then you wouldn’t have a viable timetable at Paddington

Then another solution is needed to speed up turnarounds. Perhaps by having some cleaners boarding at Reading to do a litter pick, change the bins and sort out the toilets. That then gives the station team a head start when the train arrives.

 

[RailWonderer]

In the case of GWR the restrictive Agility contract is undoubtedly part of the issue, along with the fact that there's not a common HSS fleet any more - I know that there were two different seating densities on GWR HSTs but it wasn't the end of the world if a high density set was sent to Penzance. Now you've got four subclasses of 80x to mess around with.


Did you report the accident to someone? If an accident report isn't submitted then it'll never come to the attention of managment or regulators.


Then another solution is needed to speed up turnarounds. Perhaps by having some cleaners boarding at Reading to do a litter pick, change the bins and sort out the toilets. That then gives the station team a head start when the train arrives.

If GWR had more IETs they would have more slack in their fleet and would be able to reduce turnaround times with more available units to swap. GWR was already running them a bit stretched when they entered service from 2017 but now they have to sub in for Castle HSTs on Cardiff - Plymouth - Penzance diagrams due to cost cuts it's meant less options for diagrammers.

 

[Western Sunset]

I think it's called over-sweating assets...

 

[Llanigraham]

Voice announcements first? They are presumably aware that that is illegal as it is discriminatory against deaf people?

I thought they were incompetent but this takes the cake. I'd not hesitate to bring a legal case were I deaf.

The solutions are obvious. I've stated them many times.

Really?
As there is an alternative provided I think you are wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really?
As there is an alternative provided I think you are wrong.

What alternative?

 

[BayPaul]

That’s ridiculous. Sometimes you can’t help but board a train late for a myriad of reasons (late running, awaiting crew, specialist cleaning, loading stock etc.). The later it is, the more there is going to be a rush, and that’s unfortunately inevitable. I’ve seen this on all operators and multiple stations; people gather and wait and then make a dash for it. Also what if you board the train when it’s not there and it’s routed into a different platform? Common during disruption.

Euston’s layout does not help matters here, nor does the way they manage platform boarding and Euston has a particular and notorious issue here but it’s not quite as black & white as made out to be.

All it would mean is that the TOC would be penalised for getting the train into such a situation. The train would still run, there would still be the scrum to get on it. But if there is a KPI for the TOC to announce the train in ample time then they are more likely to do so if they can, improving customer service.

 

[Howardh]

The NRE app is awful for this, for several London terminals, as well as stations outside of London. Sometimes it doesn’t even state the platforms.

I use the Railboard app, which is pretty accurate most of the time. It gives the ‘forecast’ platform wel in advance. Obviously you should check the station boards prior to boarding, just to make sure.

I usually look at which platform the inbound train is arriving at. Not always the best guide as the train arriving might not be the one departing, but so far r/e Avanti and LWM northbound it tends to work. Can't access the platform but at least if I get it right I've got a head start on the rush.

 

[trainophile]

Where does it all end? If an audio announcement excludes the deaf, then presumably a board display only disadvantages the visually impaired, on top of which they are likely to need more time to navigate their way to the correct platform than a hearing impaired but otherwise able bodied person. If they have booked assistance would they get a priority start to avoid being crushed in the general rush?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where does it all end? If an audio announcement excludes the deaf, then presumably a board display only disadvantages the visually impaired

Correct, which is why we have, and should have, both a board display and an announcement for each train.

However, being blind and being deaf are very different. Blind people are far more likely to book assistance. A deaf person can see, so can navigate the station the same way as anyone else but for the need for information to be provided visually, which is why the two aren't really comparable.

 

[Llanigraham]

What alternative?

The screens!
I suggest you don't understand what the Law states, whuich is not that the info has to be available at the same time, only that it has to be available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The screens!

Which show it a period of time after the announcements now, it seems.

I suggest you don't understand what the Law states, whuich is not that the info has to be available at the same time, only that it has to be available.

The law doesn't state anything specific about how passenger information is provided. It's a generalised principle that unless you've got very good reason you can't wilfully or negligently disadvantage people by way of their disability (or put differently, it would be a reasonable adjustment to put it on the screens at the same time as announcing it). As Euston has done both at the same time for years, this change would fail that test and so a case would most likely succeed against them.

 

[Llanigraham]

And you have confirmed my answer in the first sentence of the second answer above!

 

[Horizon22]

All it would mean is that the TOC would be penalised for getting the train into such a situation. The train would still run, there would still be the scrum to get on it. But if there is a KPI for the TOC to announce the train in ample time then they are more likely to do so if they can, improving customer service.

The TOC (or whichever party is deemed attributable for the delay) is already penalised for the delays of the late running inward service.

Most* places don’t post trains late for the fun of it and won’t routinely announce trains that are nowhere near ready for boarding (or physically not there) on the platform.

*Euston seemingly excepted!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

This is a security policy issue. Trains used to be left unlocked at Euston and haven't been for a while. They still are at Marylebone.

Yes I’m not sure this is national policy as I’ve known trains to be left unlocked for some time without boarding announced at various other terminals.

It might be good practice if a train will remain on the platform for a considerably long time (>1 hour) to lock up a train, but this again sounds like a Euston speciality.

 

[Deepgreen]

Fundamentally, the dearth of real railway operating knowledge is a critical issue. Staff on the ground are both rail and private security, the latter having virtually no rail knowledge and seemingly little common sense (being bored and eager to jump on any situation to relieve that boredom) much of the time. The situation is heading towards disaster rapidly (I am not exaggerating - look at fatal crowd crushes recently caused by stupid and ill-informed decisions). Bringing in 'tabards' with no rail or even, seemingly, general knowledge (and no real authority) to control real life crowd situations is utterly stupid and typical of today's culture - i.e. short-term, cheap and nasty. Rising through the ranks of rail staff through experience is a fundamental requirement for effective rail operation - we have all-but lost it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

Don't want to do a set swap with an IET and incur £££ from Hitachi...

THIS, in a nutshell, is the sheer stupidity of privatised rolling stock allocations and accounting!!

 

[Krokodil]

THIS, in a nutshell, is the sheer stupidity of privatised rolling stock allocations and accounting!!

Ironically it was the civil service who wrote such a restrictive contract.

 

[HOOVER29]

Whilst waiting for my train, the 16:46 from Euston to Crewe, passengers were told not to wait around the platform entrances and were to told to wait in the concourse, by the third party security officers.

At around 16:40, the platform was announced and hurds of people immediately started running down to the platform, clashing with people around the food outlets.

It is quite literally an accident waiting to happen, with the amount of people tripping over each other. Even on the platform itself, passengers were running to the doors eager to get a seat.

The boarding procedure here at Euston really needs to be looked at. On multiple occasions, services are announced far too late, leading to the infamous ‘Euston scrum’.

Been like it for years at Euston.
Why I gave up & now drive to London.

 

[dk1]

Been like it for years at Euston.
Why I gave up & now drive to London.

You drive to London purely because you don’t like the way they board trains at Euston?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I’m not sure this is national policy as I’ve known trains to be left unlocked for some time without boarding announced at various other terminals.

It might be good practice if a train will remain on the platform for a considerably long time (>1 hour) to lock up a train, but this again sounds like a Euston speciality.

It's been discussed on here before and the conclusion was that it's a per-station thing based on the security/terrorism risk assessment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

You drive to London purely because you don’t like the way they board trains at Euston?

Given how awful driving to London is this is strange. It has made me more likely to choose Aylesbury Vale Parkway to Marylebone, though, if I'm not intending on having a drink. Yes, that has a scrum as well, but with fewer people it's less horrendous, and staff don't mind you going through the gateline and waiting nearer the likely platform (which has only caught me out once).

A lot of people do drive to a Tube station and park there, though.

 

[Horizon22]

It's been discussed on here before and the conclusion was that it's a per-station thing based on the security/terrorism risk assessment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

Whilst I appreciate individual site assessments, all London terminals (bar perhaps Fenchurch St) I believe have the same security rating (the highest, A) so I’m sure it could be a worked through.

Everything about Euston’s operations seems officious, anti-passenger and obstructive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Everything about Euston’s operations seems officious, anti-passenger and obstructive.

I can't disagree with that, and it's getting worse all the time.

 

[alf]

This is a security policy issue. Trains used to be left unlocked at Euston and haven't been for a while. They still are at Marylebone.

Why not allow platform staff to unlock the LM train once it is checked?
This would eliminate the frequent last minute unlocking when a LM guard is procured at the last minute or arrives on a very late running train?

Am I right in guessing that RMT opposition to platform staff performing “the guard’s job” is the reason for this obvious thing not happening?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Which show it a period of time after the announcements now, it seems.

The law doesn't state anything specific about how passenger information is provided. It's a generalised principle that unless you've got very good reason you can't wilfully or negligently disadvantage people by way of their disability (or put differently, it would be a reasonable adjustment to put it on the screens at the same time as announcing it). As Euston has done both at the same time for years, this change would fail that test and so a case would most likely succeed against them.

"Reasonable" is the key word. Since speech is linear you cannot announce several departures simultaneously, but you can display several at once.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Reasonable" is the key word. Since speech is linear you cannot announce several departures simultaneously, but you can display several at once.

Indeed. Thus delaying display wouldn't be seen as reasonable. However delaying announcement *until other announcements had finished* would be, but not considerably longer.

 

[GordonT]

I can't disagree with that, and it's getting worse all the time.

At this rate they'll soon have all the necessary attributes to provide seasonal cover on behalf of another TOC at Blackpool North

 

[alex_alexs28]

Can anyone shed any light as to whether there is actually a ‘control room’ at Euston and, if so, who is represented in it (presumably Network Rail and Avanti and LNW and London Overground)? Is there a dedicated ‘station announcer’?

Or is the whole thing actually driven by automated systems or from ‘regional’ controls miles away in ROCs, Birmingham, etc. on the basis of signalling screens and so on?

I get that things have changed since I first saw the Solari indicator operator in the power signal box back in the early 1970s.

There is a Control Room with Network Rail colleagues and another one with Avanti West Coast colleagues - for Avanti, they are also called Engine Arrangers.

Network Rail is the one that always makes the announcements, as well as managing the board. They are also the ones doing the assitance for passengers, security checks etc.

Avanti is the one feeding the information to Network Rail about anything that has to do with their trains, which is then passed to the customers by NR.

I don't know about London North Western.

Sometimes I do wonder if the gate lines are not helping the problem as they do cause crowds in one area rather than spread along platforms.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

They do have many positives though in revenue Assurance

The gate lines colleagues are instructed to suspend the checks if the queue gets too long.

 

[irish_rail]

It would be nice if the train was actually being serviced, but experience is that for much of the time it is sat there with nothing going on.

A combination of newer trains not allowing (for some inexplicable reason) boarding without crew being present, and crew not being scheduled to board until the last minute, seem significant contributors. Statements that there is a shortage of platforms, when some are apparently being used as substitute carriage sidings to hold trains in longer term, don't help things.

With the greatest respect, there is almost always a cleaning team getting on, soon as the set arrives into Paddington, in my experience anyway as a driver the train is always cleaned on arrival, unless it has come from The North Pole. It feels a lot like the cleaning teams have a mountain to climb, and I always feel genuinely sorry for them as they hurriedly go about there important work. In an ideal world with a larger fleet, then they (and the passengers) would get more time, but we are where we are I suppose.

 

[Furrball]

Glasgow Central is another place were you generally can't board an Avanti train as soon as it arrives. Most people queue up by platform 1 / 2 to wait for them to be cleaned, or have a ticket inspection.

I don't understand why they need to do a manual ticket inspection at the platform, when they have atleast an hour to check onboard between Glasgow and Carlisle (Nobody is going to alight at a pick-up only Motherwell).

In my experience tickets are rarely checked when boarding at Glasgow Central

The barriers only appeared during COVID. Prior to that you could just walk onto the platform

 

[Peter0124]

In my experience tickets are rarely checked when boarding at Glasgow Central

The barriers only appeared during COVID. Prior to that you could just walk onto the platform

Do they clean the trains on arrival at Manchester and Liverpool? I assume the longer distance up to Glasgow is why they get cleaned at both ends. It's a pity we can no longer just walk up, they don't even let you sit down on the seats up the platform!

 

[alex_alexs28]

Do they clean the trains on arrival at Manchester and Liverpool? I assume the longer distance up to Glasgow is why they get cleaned at both ends. It's a pity we can no longer just walk up, they don't even let you sit down on the seats up the platform!

Yes, they always do. They also have mobile cleaners that are working on the trains between different stops.