Hereford Platform 4?

[andypops]

Hi all,

Does anyone know if P4 at Hereford (the up bay) is still in use, and if so how often? I just looked at a 24 hr weekday in RTT and saw no services booked during the whole day; previously I can recall some London Midland (and previously Centro!) services using this bay platform fairly regularly.

If anyone knows any info, it would be of interest. I have put some detailed queries below in case anyone has specific info.

Is it still in use?
Is it deemed too dangerous since incidents like Chester where there was a buffer stop collision?
Bonus points for any detail in how the buffer stop got bent around ten years (or more!) ago.

Fron my (non railway) perspective, it seems like a short bay with therefore limited use for most services which are >2 carriages (although I’ve got a faint recollection of a three-car, possibly 170? sitting in it in mid 2000s). What’s the max capacity (or length)?m of this platform?

Re any perceived risk assessment and consideration of bufferstop collision, my (non railway) view would imagine that the risks are much lower, as it requires a reversal from the normal running direction to access the bay and so (a) situational awareness shouldn’t be compromised and (b) closing speeds will be much more tightly controlled due to the reversal. But if the RA considers previous collisions, perhaps the incident which caused the dent is weighed into consideration?

if the platform isn’t used any more -
Why has this conclusion been reached? What possible factors could there be? And is it because the Diesel Sidings offer enough operational flexibility and capacity for stabling other units and clearing the line for up/down movement.

Thanks all for anything you can add - all details appreciated!

 

[Topological]

Used in disruption certainly, and they do have more disruption on the Marches at the moment.

For example a few weeks my Manchester train was on Platform 3 and "overtaken" by a Cardiff to Holyhead which then came back into 4. We all sat there until the train that was blocking the line north of Hereford was able to run again.

I guess it could see scheduled use for Birmingham 196s but they should be longer and there does not seem to be any reason not to use 1.

No bonus points for me though.

 

[jimm]

Someone with local knowledge may be able to confirm, but I don't think there is a facing crossover north of Hereford station to allow a WMR train coning off the Worcester line to reach platform 4 direct. And why bother when there are already options for trains to return north from platform 1 or shunt via the diesel sidings to reach platform 3?

No 4 can be handy to stick a train into in cases such as that noted above, but it's of little value for normal operations, especially when WMR seems to use pairs of 2-car 196s on a lot of Birmingham-Hereford services, which certainly wouldn't fit in there.

I think the odd early morning train used to start from platform 4 after stabling there overnight, but even that seems to have stopped in recent years.

 

[David57]

Someone with local knowledge may be able to confirm, but I don't think there is a facing crossover north of Hereford station to allow a WMR train coning off the Worcester line to reach platform 4 direct. And why bother when there are already options for trains to return north from platform 1 or shunt via the diesel sidings to reach platform 3?

No 4 can be handy to stick a train into in cases such as that noted above, but it's of little value for normal operations, especially when WMR seems to use pairs of 2-car 196s on a lot of Birmingham-Hereford services, which certainly wouldn't fit in there.

I think the odd early morning train used to start from platform 4 after stabling there overnight, but even that seems to have stopped in recent years.

No, according to my new Quail diagrams book, there is no access to P4 from the North within the local area, the closest crossover is at Shelwick Jcn, but I doubt anything can be signalled that way.

 

[Kite159]

I'm sure platform 4 is like the bay at Huntingdon, ECS shunt into the bay.

 

[jimm]

No, according to my new Quail diagrams book, there is no access to P4 from the North within the local area, the closest crossover is at Shelwick Jcn, but I doubt anything can be signalled that way.

Thanks - I thought that was the case.

 

[andypops]

Yes as noted above, it’s an ECS move after reversal at the diesel siding.

One reason to use it I was considering would be at times when both lines in the sidings are already occupied / required for other stock. However, in the last ten years I’ve noted a lot more use of the line “under the wall” (for those who don’t know the local vernacular - there are two stabling lines parallel to platform 1) for stabling HSTs, I presume since this line has shore power available which probably isn’t available in the diesel sidings.

A facing crossover would open the bay platform up for direct access from Worcester, but then there would be a much higher risk of high approach speeds and driver errors leading to a significant risk of collision in this short bay. The reversing manoeuvre, while seen perhaps as an anachronism these days, eliminates this risk.

I think the short length and longer stock used these days by WMR might be one reason it isn’t used much.

 

[BarryD]

There is only one siding parallel to platform 1 and I have never noticed anything using it.

 

[andypops]

There is only one siding parallel to platform 1 and I have never noticed anything using it.

You’re quite right there is only one siding parallel to P1, I misremembered counting two buffer stops at the dogsbody (up) end but photos show otherwise. I’ve certainly seen it in use many times, typically London FGW/GWR stock, recessing overnight or during service gaps in the day, using the shore power supply and engines shut down.

However, it’s interesting to note that there were originally two lines there, as shown on some original overhead photos from Historic England - see attached. Various old rail maps also show two lines here (or more accurately, a through road between what is now P1 and the Barrs Ct Rd wall).

Interestingly, while trying to find more info out I stumbled across the Raildar site which shows a fairly old layout (pre-1995?) of Hereford’s goods yard and the sidings around the Brecon curve triangle - see attached screen grab. They look to me like Bulmer’s siding (S arm), the MEB sidings (W arm) and Painters Bros (N arm). The Painters Bros sidings are particularly interesting with a crossover near the blocks - probably to easily release the shunter given the directionality of moves into their sidings from the yard. Raildar’s map also still shows extensive exchange sidings at the RAOC Moreton on Lugg depot north of Hereford. Almost all of the above have since (relatively recently) disappeared (either disconnected or removed entirely).

And bringing it back to topic - Raildar’s outdated track layout doesn’t show a facing crossover between Shelwick junction and the station, so I can only imagine anything arriving from the north would require some fairly tedious shunting to enter the yard area which could also have been solved with a simple crossover! I recall reading that the north side of Hfd station was remodelled in the 1970s (when the north signal box was demolished) so perhaps this is when the track was rationalised to remove any crossings? Perhaps the remodelling is the source of quite a lot of operational challenges which are still apparent today…?

 

[jimm]

There is only one siding parallel to platform 1 and I have never noticed anything using it.

The siding at the east side of the station is used six nights a week to stable a GWR IET that works the early morning service to Paddington.

Prior to the introduction of IETs, an HST was stabled there from 2008, when FGW had the shore line equipment repaired following a series of cases when empty stock HSTs did not turn up from Bristol, because of freight trains failing in front of them on the North & West line. I don't know how long the power supply had been out of action before the repair work

 

[30907]

And bringing it back to topic - Raildar’s outdated track layout doesn’t show a facing crossover between Shelwick junction and the station, so I can only imagine anything arriving from the north would require some fairly tedious shunting to enter the yard area which could also have been solved with a simple crossover! I recall reading that the north side of Hfd station was remodelled in the 1970s (when the north signal box was demolished) so perhaps this is when the track was rationalised to remove any crossings? Perhaps the remodelling is the source of quite a lot of operational challenges which are still apparent today…?

Looking further back on the NLOS online maps, the layout never had a facing crossover giving access to the northbound side. aversion to facing points wasn't just a Midland thing!

 

[newtownmgr]

P4 only used in emergency. With all West Mids Services booked for 4 car 196/1 they can’t use it. I suspect a 3 car 197 will
Struggle to fit due to length & signal sighting.

 

[Bevan Price]

P4 only used in emergency. With all West Mids Services booked for 4 car 196/1 they can’t use it. I suspect a 3 car 197 will
Struggle to fit due to length & signal sighting.

A 3 car unit will just fit tn Platform 4 at Hereford.

Correction it was 175.102, not 197.102 as originally posted.

197.102 was parked in there in late May.

 

[newtownmgr]

A 3 car unit will just fit tn Platform 4 at Hereford.
197.102 was parked in there in late May.

That’s a 175 not a 197. A 197 is 5ft longer.
We weren’t allowed to start a passenger train from there with a 3 car 170 which are 2ft longer than 175’s. TFW maybe different.

 

[Bevan Price]

That’s a 175 not a 197. A 197 is 5ft longer.
We weren’t allowed to start a passenger train from there with a 3 car 170 which are 2ft longer than 175’s. TFW maybe different.

Thanks. Correction will be made to original post.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

P4 tends only to be used for disruption and nothing more than 2 car. In more recent times it has become a temporary home for broken 175s and 197s that fail at Hereford

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is the platform 4 bay platform at Hereford station sometimes also referred to as the "Salop Bay"?