Preston to leeds/ilkley ticket options

[premier01]

I am travelling to Leeds tomorrow from Preston and staying overnight; the plan is to visit Ilkley on Saturday before travelling back to Preston.

I would like to know if a Preston to Leeds SVR could be used for all of this journey and if not what ticket combinations would be best; if cheaper I would prefer split tickets.

I'm guessing that the ticket could be used to to travel from Preston to Leeds tomorrow; then Leeds to Ilkley on Saturday then retruning via Shipley to Preston.

Any help appreciated and let me know if I need to provide any more information to help with suggestions.

 

[yorkie]

I can't see any reason why a Preston to Ikley Anytime Return (SOR) Rte: Burnley priced at £22.40 would not be the best ticket to get, with a break of journey at Leeds on the outward portion.

I think it highly unlikely that 'splitting' will be cheaper.

 

[premier01]

I can't see any reason why a Preston to Ikley Anytime Return (SOR) Rte: Burnley priced at £22.40 would not be the best ticket to get, with a break of journey at Leeds on the outward portion.


I think it highly unlikely that 'splitting' will be cheaper.

Thank u-good advice as usual : -)

Setting off from Preston now and seems to be delays on Burnley route to Leeds with replacement buses from Blackburn then back on train at Hebden Bridge-don't fancy messing around so going via Manchester using suggested ticket working on the basis that an alternative route excess in 1 direction will be simple enough to request!

 

[Traineeconductor]

Thank u-good advice as usual : -)

Setting off from Preston now and seems to be delays on Burnley route to Leeds with replacement buses from Blackburn then back on train at Hebden Bridge-don't fancy messing around so going via Manchester using suggested ticket working on the basis that an alternative route excess in 1 direction will be simple enough to request!

I was told u could not break your journey on the outward leg u can only do it on the return.

 

[ainsworth74]

I was told u could not break your journey on the outward leg u can only do it on the return.

Depends on the restriction applied to the ticket as to what is allowed regarding break of journey. In this case as the ticket is an Anytime return and therefore no restriction on it's use applies whatsoever.

 

[yorkie]

Thank u-good advice as usual : -)

Setting off from Preston now and seems to be delays on Burnley route to Leeds with replacement buses from Blackburn then back on train at Hebden Bridge-don't fancy messing around so going via Manchester using suggested ticket working on the basis that an alternative route excess in 1 direction will be simple enough to request!

If there are disruptions on the normal route, one would hope that they would allow travel via another appropriate route at no extra cost

On occasions due to short notice engineering work and disruption, services may be diverted from their normal routes or customers asked to use alternative routes. In these circumstances operators will make special provision to allow extra permitted routes. They will advise other operators and retailers of the extra provisions made to convey customers by routes other than those which are normally permitted. This provision will also apply to connecting services which are not directly affected.

It does really depend on the nature of the delay with the buses though, as they could say it is reasonable for you to use the bus replacement instead of go via Manchester.

If you are charged an excess it should be half the difference in fares, the fare paid is £22.40 and the appropriate fare (Off Peak Return, route Any Permitted) is £29.70. This comes to £3.65 ( Although most guards should issue the excess correctly, there are some who do not. If asked for any more than this, I would decline, stating that you believe the correct excess to be £3.65 and check it is being calculated correctly, if they won't/can't issue it correctly I would obtain a UPFN instead, and appeal the payment on the basis that the amount is not correct. Note I would only advise that course of action if you are certain you are being overcharged).
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I was told u could not break your journey on the outward leg u can only do it on the return.

Of what ticket?

The original ticket is an Anytime Return, which always allows BOJ, without any limit.

The excessed ticket (if doing a change of route excess) would be an Off Peak Return restriction 2L and does not have any prohibition of break of journey. However one major difference is that after the overnight stay in Leeds, then "travel must resume before 1200" between Leeds and Ilkley.

Only a very small number of Off Peak tickets forbid break of journey on the outward portion. However the person who trained you probably remembers the old rules on Savers and has not checked that the new rules do allow BOJ (unless there is a restriction in the restriction code of that particular ticket that prevents it - you would have to look up that specific ticket on Avantix to check this).

 

[premier01]

If there are disruptions on the normal route, one would hope that they would allow travel via another appropriate route at no extra cost



It does really depend on the nature of the delay with the buses though, as they could say it is reasonable for you to use the bus replacement instead of go via Manchester.

If you are charged an excess it should be half the difference in fares, the fare paid is £22.40 and the appropriate fare (Off Peak Return, route Any Permitted) is £29.70. This comes to £3.65 ( Although most guards should issue the excess correctly, there are some who do not. If asked for any more than this, I would decline, stating that you believe the correct excess to be £3.65 and check it is being calculated correctly, if they won't/can't issue it correctly I would obtain a UPFN instead, and appeal the payment on the basis that the amount is not correct. Note I would only advise that course of action if you are certain you are being overcharged).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of what ticket?

The original ticket is an Anytime Return, which always allows BOJ, without any limit.

The excessed ticket (if doing a change of route excess) would be an Off Peak Return restriction 2L and does not have any prohibition of break of journey. However one major difference is that after the overnight stay in Leeds, then "travel must resume before 1200" between Leeds and Ilkley.

Only a very small number of Off Peak tickets forbid break of journey on the outward portion. However the person who trained you probably remembers the old rules on Savers and has not checked that the new rules do allow BOJ (unless there is a restriction in the restriction code of that particular ticket that prevents it - you would have to look up that specific ticket on Avantix to check this).

We had no problem using the original tickets on the Manchester Piccadilly route-guess they were aware of the engineering works etc

Enjoyed Leeds and just about to arrive in Ilkley-looking forward to it!-noticed it was on BBC's coverage of the Royal Wedding yesterday!

Would the tickets be valid to travel via Skipton, Blackburn etc on the return-possibly would take that route rather than go back via Leeds.

 

[Lampshade]

As in Skipton - (bus) - Colne/Burnley - Blackburn?

I've done York - Leeds - Todmorden - (bus) - Burnley - Preston before, it could work just as long as you pass through Burnley at some point, although yorkie could probably give a more definite answer.

 

[yorkie]

Would the tickets be valid to travel via Skipton, Blackburn etc on the return-possibly would take that route rather than go back via Leeds.

Using the Skipton to Colne bus? Your ticket is not valid between Shipley and Skipton, nor between Colne and Blackburn (or on the bus - but that's obvious!), however if you ask the guard nicely and explain what you are doing, they may say yes. If the first guard says no, a Shipley to Skipton Anytime Day Single is £5.10 (same fare on board so if the guard says no you can either hop on and buy it on board, or head towards Bradford to save your money instead), and if the second guard doesn't allow it, Colne to Blackburn is £6.60 Anytime Day Single. Not cheap fares. I don't know the price of the bus (I did it in 2005/2006ish and I don't recall it being unreasonably priced back then).

 

[premier01]

Using the Skipton to Colne bus? Your ticket is not valid between Shipley and Skipton, nor between Colne and Blackburn (or on the bus - but that's obvious!), however if you ask the guard nicely and explain what you are doing, they may say yes. If the first guard says no, a Shipley to Skipton Anytime Day Single is £5.10 (same fare on board so if the guard says no you can either hop on and buy it on board, or head towards Bradford to save your money instead), and if the second guard doesn't allow it, Colne to Blackburn is £6.60 Anytime Day Single. Not cheap fares. I don't know the price of the bus (I did it in 2005/2006ish and I don't recall it being unreasonably priced back then).

Thanks-was thinking of going through Bradford then Keighley and that way but more than enough here in Ilkley to keep us entertained!

Probably return via Bradford providing there's no bus replacements-National Rail doesn't seem to suggest so-anyone think there is?-if not return via Manchester.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks-was thinking of going through Bradford then Keighley and that way but more than enough here in Ilkley to keep us entertained!

via Bradford and then Keighley?

That would, in addition to what I said above, also be doubling-back between Shipley and Bradford.

Probably return via Bradford providing there's no bus replacements-National Rail doesn't seem to suggest so-anyone think there is?-if not return via Manchester.

When are you travelling back? Today? No sign of engineering works today, the last train back from Bradford Interchange (BDI) is at 2113. No problems tomorrow (Sunday) either, last train 2055 from BDI.

 

[premier01]

via Bradford and then Keighley?

That would, in addition to what I said above, also be doubling-back between Shipley and Bradford.

When are you travelling back? Today? No sign of engineering works today, the last train back from Bradford Interchange (BDI) is at 2113. No problems tomorrow (Sunday) either, last train 2055 from BDI.

So not allowed on so many levels then

Yes returning today probably via Bradford working on the basis of no buses today.

 

[yorkie]

If you wish to visit Keighley and Bradford, but can do without Skipton, then can I suggest breaking your return journey at Shipley, taking a train to Keighley (CDR Shipley to Keighley is £2.30; SDR £2.75) and then resuming your return journey at Shipley, breaking it again at Bradford, then resuming Bradford to Preston (and further breaking your journey at Blackburn if you wish, or indeed anywhere else en-route).

It is a lot cheaper if you miss out Skipton and the bus to Colne!

 

[premier01]

If you wish to visit Keighley and Bradford, but can do without Skipton, then can I suggest breaking your return journey at Shipley, taking a train to Keighley (CDR Shipley to Keighley is £2.30; SDR £2.75) and then resuming your return journey at Shipley, breaking it again at Bradford, then resuming Bradford to Preston (and further breaking your journey at Blackburn if you wish, or indeed anywhere else en-route).

It is a lot cheaper if you miss out Skipton and the bus to Colne!

Yes was thinking that the change was at Bradford to get to Keighley-have no particular wish to visit Bradford! Probably I was also thinking of taking the Skipton- Gisburn-Langho- Blackburn route back as it's scenic route but seems that's just not valid-also seems best to do that as part of another trip so probably just go back to Preston today.

It's probably easier to visit Skipton by bus or car from Preston-thinking of visiting Keighley and the KWVR on another day.

 

[yorkie]

I was also thinking of taking the Skipton- Gisburn-Langho- Blackburn route back as it's scenic route but seems that's just not valid

I had to look up Gisburn and Langho as I'd never heard of them! I see that's the Hellifield/Clitheroe route, it is probably* valid on an Any Permitted ticket, but there are no trains except on Sundays!

(* You'd need to check the Routeing Guide. If you can confirm you are travelling on a Sunday and are struggling with the RG I will help out if you like)

 

[premier01]

I had to look up Gisburn and Langho as I'd never heard of them! I see that's the Hellifield/Clitheroe route, it is probably* valid on an Any Permitted ticket, but there are no trains except on Sundays!

(* You'd need to check the Routeing Guide. If you can confirm you are travelling on a Sunday and are struggling with the RG I will help out if you like)

Travelling back to Preston now having had great time over the border in Yorkshire-although there's some good locations round that area that I would like to visit so if plan is to travel to various locations on same ticket will take you up on that offer-it is interesting how you can save having to buy multiple tickets by checking the RG-wouldn't have guessed
for example that only needed the 1 ticket today!

 

[yorkie]

Damn, I didn't get out of that one then

Okay the Routeing Guide (RG) is here:

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

First we need to determine appropriate Routeing Points (RPs)

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

We see here that Preston Lancs is an RP.

Ilkley is associated with 3 RPs; Bradford Group, Hellifield Group and Leeds Group.

The Anytime Day Single (SDS) fares to Bradford and Leeds are both lower, so without doubt these are appropriate RPs.

However the SDS from Preston to Ilkley is cheaper (at £27.10) than to Hellifield (£30.20) therefore Hellifield could be deemed not an appropriate Routeing Point*.... however there could be an argument to say that, if we are looking at Hellifield fares, we are not looking at Leeds fares, therefore the Preston to Hellifield route Not Leeds fare could be compared, and at £20.40 this would pass the fares check rule, making Hellifield an appropriate RP. Booking engines may differ in their interpretation of this. I am uncertain.

To determine the mapped routes we need to look here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf

Preston-Bradford Gp is permitted on maps:
NC
NW+LY
TP

Preston-Leeds Gp is valid on maps:
NC+TP
NW+GM+WY
TP+NC

*If Hellifield is an appropriate RP, then Preston-Hellifield is valid on these maps:
NC
NC+MH
NC+WK+WY
NC+WY
NW+GM+WK+WY

You can view the maps here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf

Enjoy

 

[strange6]

No wonder people are mystified about buying rail tickets judging by Yorkie's step-by-step guide. You could honestly make a 3 year BA degree course in British Railways Ticket Sales. there must be an easier system surely!

 

[WestCoast]

No wonder people are mystified about buying rail tickets judging by Yorkie's step-by-step guide. You could honestly make a 3 year BA degree course in British Railways Ticket Sales. there must be an easier system surely!

The routeing guide is fine once you get to grips with it! Nevertheless, UK rail ticketing must be one of the most complicated systems in the world!

 

[ainsworth74]

there must be an easier system surely!

What do you mean easier system? It's perfectly simple since the fares simplification took place a while ago, got rid of all the confusing names like Saver and the like replaced them with perfectly obvious names. Indeed ATOC research shows that the vast majority of passengers have no problem getting the ticket they need to carry out their journey!

Or at least that's what I would say if I worked at ATOC (that and waffle on about people buying CDs but that's yorkies personal stick to beat ATOC with ) Seriously though surely there must be a better way of doing things.

 

[WestCoast]

Interestingly, the booking engines quote the rather alarming price of £30.90 anytime return for the 25 mins journey between Clitheroe and Hellifield! :cry:

But at least there are special DalesRail fares!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What do you mean easier system? It's perfectly simple since the fares simplification took place a while ago, got rid of all the confusing names like Saver and the like replaced them with perfectly obvious names. Indeed ATOC research shows that the vast majority of passengers have no problem getting the ticket they need to carry out their journey!

New ATOC campaign....

 

[yorkie]

No wonder people are mystified about buying rail tickets judging by Yorkie's step-by-step guide. You could honestly make a 3 year BA degree course in British Railways Ticket Sales. there must be an easier system surely!

Well, we run Fares Workshops, but no degree yet

Anyway I think ATOC's response would probably be along these lines put the journey into the National Rail Journey Planner, if it says you are OK on one ticket, it's valid, because that interprets the RG correctly. (Well, it does usually!)

The routeing guide is fine once you get to grips with it! Nevertheless, UK rail ticketing must be one of the most complicated systems in the world!

I dunno about 'fine' but the basics are okay, but the stuff about determining appropriate RPs can be a real pain at times, especially when some fares fail and some pass, and when you have different routeings...

Or at least that's what I would say if I worked at ATOC (that and waffle on about people buying CDs but that's yorkies personal stick to beat ATOC with ) Seriously though surely there must be a better way of doing things.

David Mapp said that at a dinner party, without realising the Press were there, apparently.

Oh, and it was Savers that people should not buy as they should get CDs instead. Interestingly, the ticket that premier01 bought used to be called a Saver, but is now an Anytime so is no longer an 'SVR'. So, presumably, there was "no economic case" for it when David Mapp first made the CD comments, but there is now? If anyone ever meets him, perhaps they could ask

Interestingly, the booking engines quote the rather alarming price of £30.90 anytime return for the 25 mins journey between Clitheroe and Hellifield! :cry:

But at least there are special DalesRail fares!

Aren't they only available on-board? But (no offence!) you would prefer people were punished for buying on board, so maybe they should be swapped round and have the booking sites should sell the Dales Rail fare, and the £30 anytime fare should be for people who board the Dales Rail and pay the guard

That is quite a find actually - it's almost worth someone buying such a ticket from Thetrainline then doing a spoof TV adert showing how Thetrainline actually costs more.

 

[John @ home]

the booking engines quote the rather alarming price of £30.90 anytime return for the 25 mins journey between Clitheroe and Hellifield!

No. Current Clitheroe - Hellifield fares are:

Route Burnley
Anytime Day Single £20.40
Anytime Return £25.30

Route Any Permitted
Anytime Day Single £25.20
Anytime Return £30.10

Route Northern Trains
Ticket type DRI (Dalesrail Single?) £12.00
Ticket type DRG (Dalesrail [Day?] Return?) £18.00

There are also Advance single fares route Virgin & Connections from £5 to £59.50.

 

[WestCoast]

No. Current Clitheroe - Hellifield fares are:

Route Burnley
Anytime Day Single £20.40
Anytime Return £25.30

Route Any Permitted
Anytime Day Single £25.20
Anytime Return £30.10

Route Northern Trains
Ticket type DRI (Dalesrail Single?) £12.00
Ticket type DRG (Dalesrail [Day?] Return?) £18.00

There are also Advance single fares route Virgin & Connections from £5 to £59.50.

The £25.30 return route Burnley ticket would not be valid on the 25mins direct service - it doesn't go via Burnley! So, the emboldened fare still stands!

Aren't they only available on-board? But (no offence!) you would prefer people were punished for buying on board, so maybe they should be swapped round and have the booking sites should sell the Dales Rail fare, and the £30 anytime fare should be for people who board the Dales Rail and pay the guard

No, I bought Dales Rail tickets at Poulton ticket office when I went to Carlisle, and apparently you can also buy them in advance from some place at Clitheroe Bus Station (a bit odd I know!).

I see you've noticed I'm hardly a fan of "buy onboard". (RANT) I firmly believe that guards (at least on shorter distances) should be responsible for safety, providing information and connection advice and examining tickets - not spending hours faffing with ticket sales involving that huge Avantix machine trying to get cards processed! We should focus on more ticket offices (and longer hours) and machines and make people use them. (RANT OVER) My gold star for this goes to Merseyrail.

Although, without a complete ticketing overhaul and major investment, "buy on board" will always be a necessity in some areas.

 

[John @ home]

The £25.30 return route Burnley ticket would not be valid on the 25mins direct service - it doesn't go via Burnley!

Agreed.

So, the emboldened fare still stands!

The £25.20 and £30.10 fares are certainly available (and valid via Manchester among other places), but on the 25mins direct service the fares are £12 and £18. Currently, there is no £30.90 fare.

 

[34D]

Agreed.The £25.20 and £30.10 fares are certainly available (and valid via Manchester among other places), but on the 25mins direct service the fares are £12 and £18. Currently, there is no £30.90 fare.

I've just gone onto http://pda.ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/pj/jd?journeyIndex=1&journeyType=s to look at the Clitheroe to Hellifield direct fare and on the 09:51 (1M46 08:36 blackpool-carlisle) the following is given:
Off-Peak (Return)*£32.00*****North West Round Robin
Anytime (Outward)*£25.20*****Anytime Day Single

Is £18 return given in the database?

 

[bluenoxid]

Using the Skipton to Colne bus? Your ticket is not valid between Shipley and Skipton, nor between Colne and Blackburn (or on the bus - but that's obvious!), however if you ask the guard nicely and explain what you are doing, they may say yes. If the first guard says no, a Shipley to Skipton Anytime Day Single is £5.10 (same fare on board so if the guard says no you can either hop on and buy it on board, or head towards Bradford to save your money instead), and if the second guard doesn't allow it, Colne to Blackburn is £6.60 Anytime Day Single. Not cheap fares. I don't know the price of the bus (I did it in 2005/2006ish and I don't recall it being unreasonably priced back then).

I did Skipton to Barnoldswick single one afternoon recently and that was £4 so probably looking at least a fiver to do it.

For some reason, I now drive it all the time. At 13p per mile (company car), it tends to come in significantly cheaper.

Genuinely better going via Bradford or Leeds in terms of travel time and costs (this fact tends to blow a significant chunk of the SELRAP campaign out of the water but hey ho).

 

[John @ home]

Is £18 return given in the database?

The £12 and £18 fares are on the Avantix Traveller Fares Information CD-ROM 2 January 2011 - 21 May 2011 NFM 08.