Accidentally not payed penalty

[jerry44]

Back in the summer on one of my daily train journeys my ticket wouldn't load on the Trainline app. The inspector took my details and gave me a fine, he told me to send an appeal with a screenshot of the ticket once I had wifi and I wouldn't be charged anything. I said I didn't mind buying another ticket there to avoid any hassle but the inspector said that this would be easy and I wouldn't have to pay anything. Later On the journey I managed to upload a screenshot of the ticket to the appeal like he told me and I believed that was all I needed to do.

I didn't hear anything after this and I assumed it was fine like the inspector told me. I've come to my parents for Christmas and found letters with fines for this ticket and a final notice that is past it's deadline and I'm not to sure how to proceed

 

[skyhigh]

Please upload copies of the letters with your personal details covered so we can see exactly what situation you are in.

 

[jerry44]

Here's the two letters

 

[skyhigh]

If you put your details into the website given as a payment method on the final letter, does it still give you the option to pay?

 

[jerry44]

If you put your details into the website given as a payment method on the final letter, does it still give you the option to pay?

No it says can't proceed- notice has been closed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2023 ==

Attached letters

 

[WesternLancer]

No it says can't proceed- notice has been closed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2023 ==

Attached letters

Strikes me you need to urgently find a way to engage with them (preferably in writing) to make it clear you want to pay the sum asked ASAP but have only had the letters brought to your attention because you were not at the address in recent weeks / months and can they accept payment and then close the matter.

You could try ringing that number on the letter but that might not be an office that is now open until after xmas. I'd follow up everything in writing (quote ref numbers) and if it can not be e-mailed I'd send it by signed for post from a post office and keep a copy of everything sent. 12 noon tomorrow Saturday is probably your last postal collection before 27th dec if you can get something in writing to them by then via a local post office. A suitably apologetic tone might help get a helpful outcome....

maybe you can even enclose a Postal Order as per the letter (get that at tthe post office too) but if the payment options are now closed that may not work. So might be best to write, apologise, explain, ask how you can now pay ASAP.

I have to say that your parents have not done you any favours by not mentioning post sent to you was there and might need looking at the contents....but I expect you have had that chat.

Good luck.

 

[John R]

I have to say that your parents have not done you any favours by not mentioning post sent to you was there and might need looking at the contents....but I expect you have had that chat.

Good luck.

That was me my immediate thought, though probably less politely put.

It’s usually the other way round in my experience, with the younger generation regarding anything posted to them as a mysterious item to be shoved to one side unopened as it can’t possibly be important. Still, I digress…

 

[WesternLancer]

Back in the summer on one of my daily train journeys my ticket wouldn't load on the Trainline app. The inspector took my details and gave me a fine, he told me to send an appeal with a screenshot of the ticket once I had wifi and I wouldn't be charged anything. I said I didn't mind buying another ticket there to avoid any hassle but the inspector said that this would be easy and I wouldn't have to pay anything. Later On the journey I managed to upload a screenshot of the ticket to the appeal like he told me and I believed that was all I needed to do.

I didn't hear anything after this and I assumed it was fine like the inspector told me. I've come to my parents for Christmas and found letters with fines for this ticket and a final notice that is past it's deadline and I'm not to sure how to proceed

There's also another question about what happened to the Appeal you thought you had submitted - but I suspect it's too late to pursue that now - those go to an independent body who would have written to you with the outcome of the appeal if your submission / upload actually worked in the 1st place - did you ever get any auto acknowledgment or any type of reply to that as a matter of interest?

 

[gray1404]

Have you logged on to see if it will still let you pay it?

 

[John R]

Have you logged on to see if it will still let you pay it?

Answered in post 5, and it won’t accept payment.

 

[30907]

This is slightly OT as I don't think it helps the OP, but I thought a Penalty Fare was (as the letter itself says) £100 (£50 if paid promptly) PLUS the appropriate fare - but the letters just mention the fare element.
Maybe the original Notice makes things clearer?

 

[gray1404]

Answered in post 5, and it won’t accept payment.

Perhaps only option at this point then is to send a cheque with a cover note apologising for the delay and asking them if they will still accept it?

 

[jerry44]

This is slightly OT as I don't think it helps the OP, but I thought a Penalty Fare was (as the letter itself says) £100 (£50 if paid promptly) PLUS the appropriate fare - but the letters just mention the fare element.
Maybe the original Notice makes things clearer?

These are the only letters from them that my parents kept whilst I was at uni, unless the original notice is the long ticket that the inspector gave me, I threw it away because I was told everything had been sorted and I wouldn't need to pay anything

 

[Titfield]

Perhaps only option at this point then is to send a cheque with a cover note apologising for the delay and asking them if they will still accept it?

At least by doing this it shows intent to pay now. It also of course puts the ball back in their court at having to decline the payment and return it.

 

[fandroid]

This is slightly OT as I don't think it helps the OP, but I thought a Penalty Fare was (as the letter itself says) £100 (£50 if paid promptly) PLUS the appropriate fare - but the letters just mention the fare element.
Maybe the original Notice makes things clearer?

Did the OP pay the £50 or the £100 but forget to add the unpaid fare element? Or did the parents pay it?

 

[island]

This is slightly OT as I don't think it helps the OP, but I thought a Penalty Fare was (as the letter itself says) £100 (£50 if paid promptly) PLUS the appropriate fare - but the letters just mention the fare element.
Maybe the original Notice makes things clearer?

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the appeal was upheld, leaving only the original fare to be paid, but it has not been.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2023 ==

I threw it away because I was told everything had been sorted and I wouldn't need to pay anything

Told by whom?

 

[gray1404]

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the appeal was upheld, leaving only the original fare to be paid, but it has not been.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2023 ==


Told by whom?

If that is the case then Northerns letter is bang out of order and they can only recover the amount of the rail fare as a civil debt.

 

[island]

An off peak day single from Cross Gates to York on the given date was £18.40, which is the main reason for the guess.

The question remains, by whom was the OP told that "everything had been sorted"?

 

[fandroid]

An off peak day single from Cross Gates to York on the given date was £18.40, which is the main reason for the guess.

The question remains, by whom was the OP told that "everything had been sorted"?

Whatever happened, the Regulations say that the fare still needs to be paid when an appeal is upheld. I suggest just paying £18.40, as the jaw requires,v and leaving the rail company to decide whether they bother with their "admin costs".

 

[AlterEgo]

Whatever happened, the Regulations say that the fare still needs to be paid when an appeal is upheld. I suggest just paying £18.40, as the jaw requires,v and leaving the rail company to decide whether they bother with their "admin costs".

I would agree with this.

 

[island]

I would also agree. They have questionable if any basis for charging "admin costs".

Note however that if the total is unpaid and it proceeds to county court then real court costs will be added and these can ramp up rapidly.

 

[furlong]

You say you threw away the original paperwork - you could ask them for another copy of it to try to get to the bottom of this. Can you track down any copies of that appeal that you made?
[edited - didn't see intervening messages]

If the appeal was upheld (and this is still guessing), while on the face of it the fare is still payable under the PF regulations, there's a separate question as to whether or not a court would find it payable contractually if the argument was that it had already been paid and that was accepted.

 

[island]

If the appeal was upheld (and this is still guessing), while on the face of it the fare is still payable under the PF regulations, there's a separate question as to whether or not a court would find it payable contractually if the argument was that it had already been paid and that was accepted.

Contracts cannot overrule the law, and the law says the amount is payable.

I would say that this is a bad law and should be changed, and I would hope that a train company would not pursue the amount through civil court, but the law says that they can. The part of the penalty fare that is equal to the single fare for the journey is payable by law. It happens to be equal to the single fare, but paying the single fare does not count towards it. A court cannot “find it [not] payable contractually” because it was not “payable contractually” to begin with.

 

[furlong]

Contracts cannot overrule the law, and the law says the amount is payable.

(This is getting ahead of things because we still haven't been told the status of any appeal.)

If the reason that the appeal was upheld was that the Penalty Fare was issued unlawfully (and only some appeals fall into this category), then might a court be persuaded that the entire Penalty Fare appeal proceedings are void (insofar as, if the law had been complied with, there would have been on Penalty Fare and no appeal) and unwind them, returning to the basic question of whether or not the fare due contractually still needs to be paid?
If the appeals decision was discretionary, then indeed, the fare due remains the one issued by the inspector, but there could still be scope to argue that monies already paid should be deemed to count towards it by some particular mechanism.
The other angle for the OP to explore would be to what extent what the inspector said (if proven) is binding or alternatively, if what's said was false, could make the issue of the PF unlawful again potentially voiding the proceedings.

 

[Hadders]

I would contact Northern immediately and explain what has happened. Hopefully they will allow payment to be made preventing the matter from proceeding to court.

They are unlikely to be open this side of the New Year so I would email them now and follow-up with a phone call on 2nd January.

 

[island]

(This is getting ahead of things because we still haven't been told the status of any appeal.)

If the reason that the appeal was upheld was that the Penalty Fare was issued unlawfully (and only some appeals fall into this category), then might a court be persuaded that the entire Penalty Fare appeal proceedings are void (insofar as, if the law had been complied with, there would have been on Penalty Fare and no appeal) and unwind them, returning to the basic question of whether or not the fare due contractually still needs to be paid?

A court has no jursidiction to “unwind” “Penalty Fare appeal proceedings”. The penalty fares appeal process is a creature of statute and is designed as an alternative to court proceedings.

If the appeals decision was discretionary, then indeed, the fare due remains the one issued by the inspector, but there could still be scope to argue that monies already paid should be deemed to count towards it by some particular mechanism.

What mechanism?

The other angle for the OP to explore would be to what extent what the inspector said (if proven) is binding or alternatively, if what's said was false, could make the issue of the PF unlawful again potentially voiding the proceedings.

I see nothing of merit in this line of argument.

I would be happy to enter into general discussion on the details of recovery of the single fare when a Penalty Fare has been successfully appealed but only in a separate thread to avoid confusing the OP [further].

The court might for example rule that granting a judgement for the amount of the fare results in the TOC being unjustly enriched, but this would likely require the involvement of a skilled solicitor.

 

[pedr]

What remedy is open to a train company if a passenger successfully appeals and then does not pay the fare? Is a prosecution still statute-barred?

 

[island]

What remedy is open to a train company if a passenger successfully appeals and then does not pay the fare? Is a prosecution still statute-barred?

Once a PF appeal under the 2018 Regulations has been pending for 21 days, or resolved, whether or not in the passenger's favour, the passenger may not be prosecuted in relation to the same failure to produce a ticket under:

• Section 5 (3) (a) or (b) of the Regulation of Railways Act
• The National Rail byelaws
• Merseyrail byelaws
• (In England only) section 11 of the Fraud Act 2006 (making off without payment).

The intention is that the Penalty Fare route keep things out of the criminal courts, and therefore the intended remedy for a train company faced with an amount owed to them after a Penalty Fare has been appealed is a civil claim against the passenger for the amount, and regulation 12 of the Penalty Fares Regulations applies here.

But for a Penalty Fare issued on the T&W Metro, a prosecution can still be taken after an appeal. And a few train companies have tried to take prosecutions under section 5 (1) of the Regulation of Railways Act. These prosecutions are unmeritorious, but that has not stopped them.

 

[pedr]

So that does, at least, mean that a train company should be making a specific and individual decision about whether to bring an action to recover that unpaid money, and that would be an action where attempting to defend against it wouldn’t have the same risks as defending against a prosecution.

 

[island]

So that does, at least, mean that a train company should be making a specific and individual decision about whether to bring an action to recover that unpaid money, and that would be an action where attempting to defend against it wouldn’t have the same risks as defending against a prosecution.

Correct. "Should" being the keyword there of course. If a person loses a civil case, that may cost them money, but does not carry a longer-term impact in the way a criminal record does. (Assuming of course that they pay what they owe promptly after the judgement; a county court judgement will mess up your credit for 6 years if not paid within a month of issue.)