New Bradford to Huddersfield route

[Halish Railway]

As I can't find a dedicated thread for this topic, I thought I should make one.

As part of the Network North ideas that have been bounded around, the suggestion has been made that a new route from Bradford to Huddersfield would be built, with trains from Bradford to Manchester using this route, as well as the electrified and upgraded Diggle line. I can't find much in the way of what route this would take so I thought I'd add my idea - Use the disused Low Moor to Mirfield and Thornhill LYR alignment.

With this you could run;
- Bradford to Manchester, non-stop to Huddersfield as this route seems to curves shallow enough to permit running at 70mph, with the exception of joining to route at Low Moor and Mirfield, unless a diversion around Low Moor could be built.
- Bradford to Sheffield, requiring the Horbury curve to be reinstated
- Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford, but ideally with the Bradford avoiding curve reinstated, giving Heckmondwike, Liversedge and Cleckheaton a direct service to Leeds.

For me this would deliver many more benefits than building an entirely new fast alignment from Bradford to Huddersfield, even if the end-journey times are a few minutes longer. Any thoughts on this?

 

[matacaster]

The route you advocate would clearly not deliver the headline journey time figure the govt announcement suggested, but it does have some merit in terms of a balance between cost, speed, connectivity and diversionary options. It also appears to be relatively easy to reinstate (as compared to a new line).

Unfortunately, a fundamental problem is there is no location that I can think of on the route through Bradford that makes any sense for prospective Bradford passengers as it goes through some grim areas. Either station options proposed by Bradford council are some uphill distance from Bradford centre.

Under your proposal, would Bradford then have 3 unconnected stations or would you close Forster Square and the Interchange?

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't think any new heavy rail route has been suggested. There is a suggestion that a West Yorkshire tram system might one day be built, and that one line might end up going down the Spen Valley from Bradford to Dewsbury. But this is a very early idea that hasn't even been fleshed out to consider a business case yet, so you're looking at 10-20 years at least, if at all.

But just considering your ideas for a moment:

With this you could run;
- Bradford to Manchester, non-stop to Huddersfield as this route seems to curves shallow enough to permit running at 70mph, with the exception of joining to route at Low Moor and Mirfield, unless a diversion around Low Moor could be built.

Whilst as a Bradfordian this seems like a nice idea, I'm not sure that either demand or time improvements would justify this, especially given that it would have to thread into a re-diagrammed TRU running under the wires.

- Bradford to Sheffield, requiring the Horbury curve to be reinstated

Again another nice idea, although this could be achieved with a slightly longer (and possibly more financially viable) route via Halifax & Huddersfield, albeit again having to thread across the TP route. Maybe joining the current Bradford-Huddersfield & Huddersfield-Sheffield diagrams might be doable once TRU works are done?

- Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford, but ideally with the Bradford avoiding curve reinstated, giving Heckmondwike, Liversedge and Cleckheaton a direct service to Leeds.

Now this one I don't understand. Why would you go Leeds-Huddersfield via the Bradford route, but then avoid Bradford? Given that its the biggest financial draw between the two on that alignment, avoiding it to save a couple of minutes makes little sense. And it leads me to ask why so many people seem to want an avoiding line when there is one via Dewsbury & Brighouse?

 

[Halish Railway]

Again another nice idea, although this could be achieved with a slightly longer (and possibly more financially viable) route via Halifax & Huddersfield, albeit again having to thread across the TP route. Maybe joining the current Bradford-Huddersfield & Huddersfield-Sheffield diagrams might be doable once TRU works are done?

I don't see a scenario in which Bradford to Sheffield via Halifax and Penistone can be done in less than 1 hour and 30 minutes. The reopened Spen route wouldn't interact with the TRU route as it would join the line towards Wakefield and Sheffield at Thornhill, beyond Ravensthorpe. I believe that the plans for a new alignment between Ravensthorpe and Dewsbury leave space to reinstate the old Low Moor to Thornhill route. As well I would have thought that a Bradford to Sheffield service, calling at Cleckheaton, Liversedge, Heckmodwike, Barnsley and Meadowhall would provide competitive journey times, provided that the slow section through Low Moor was avoided and linespeeds on the Hallam line were increased.

Now this one I don't understand. Why would you go Leeds-Huddersfield via the Bradford route, but then avoid Bradford? Given that its the biggest financial draw between the two on that alignment, avoiding it to save a couple of minutes makes little sense. And it leads me to ask why so many people seem to want an avoiding line when there is one via Dewsbury & Brighouse?

The market from the Spen Valley to Bradford Interchange could be served by the hypothetical service from Sheffield. I would have imagined that given the proposed site of the new station near St James' market, platforms could be added on the avoiding line. It's not the most ideal solution, but still allows a service intended for the Spen Valley to Leeds market to still serve Bradford in some form and allows Bradford Interchange to become the station for trains terminating at Bradford, e.g. Bradford to Manchester fast, Sheffield and London.

 

[MarkyT]

My suggestion for Manchester - Bradford trains is a new route from Huddersfield to Halifax, tunneled under Netheroyd Hill, emerging to cross the Calder through the industrial estate near Elland. A little over 5 miles total of which around 4 would be in tunnel. Shown in yellow below, it saves almost half the distance going via Brighouse (blue) and would be faster clearly with fewer junctions and interactions with other services to negotiate. With the more numerous Manchester - Leeds trains going via Dewsbury, I envisage a comparatively limited service this way of say 2PTH in each direction so with a section time of little more than 5 minutes, maybe a partially single-line configuration might suffice for the tunnel sections, if safety and evacuation issues could be managed. The Netheroyd Hill Tunnel would be a little under 3 miles long I imagine. Using existing route between Halifax and Bradfor, so still quite a way round via Halifax but with the leg from Huddersfield made much shorther and faster and allowing a call at the significant town Halifax en route:

 

[Arkeeos]

The "new route from bradford to Huddersfield", is reinstanting the brighouse branch, and as many others have mentioned in other threads the journey times in the document are made up.

But reinstating that branch is a good idea, given the alignment is preserved relatively well and it goes through a populated area, I wouldn't be surprised if it is included in a hypothetical future west yorkshire mass transit system. If it were heavy rail, I would imagine that it would have to connect at ravensthorpe rather than mirfield, unless you want to demolish a zoo.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As mentioned upthread, there's already an hourly service direct from Bradford Interchange to Huddersfield. First one during the week at 0636, last one 2340. Journey time = 36 or 37 minutes. Isn't that sufficient for any Bradfordians who need to travel directly to Huddersfield, or vice-versa, and without anyone being required to travel via Leeds?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's worth pointing out that large chunks of the Spen Valley route are now the "Spen Valley Greenway", a cycle route which was installed at great expense by Kirklees Council so they could claim some green credentials. If the railway came back, what would happen to the cr**kheads who loiter on there waiting for unsuspecting riders to rob?

 

[Nottingham59]

As I can't find a dedicated thread for this topic, I thought I should make one.

As part of the Network North ideas that have been bounded around, the suggestion has been made that a new route from Bradford to Huddersfield would be built, with trains from Bradford to Manchester using this route, as well as the electrified and upgraded Diggle line. I can't find much in the way of what route this would take so I thought I'd add my idea - Use the disused Low Moor to Mirfield and Thornhill LYR alignment.

With this you could run;
- Bradford to Manchester, non-stop to Huddersfield as this route seems to curves shallow enough to permit running at 70mph, with the exception of joining to route at Low Moor and Mirfield, unless a diversion around Low Moor could be built.
- Bradford to Sheffield, requiring the Horbury curve to be reinstated
- Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford, but ideally with the Bradford avoiding curve reinstated, giving Heckmondwike, Liversedge and Cleckheaton a direct service to Leeds.

For me this would deliver many more benefits than building an entirely new fast alignment from Bradford to Huddersfield, even if the end-journey times are a few minutes longer. Any thoughts on this?

I thought there are two routes you could take for Huddersfield-Bradford. This was the easier:

But I prefer a high speed alignment through Brighouse.

This second route would be almost as fast as a fully tunnelled direct NPR route.

Images from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fantasy-tunnelling-suggestions.233719/#post-5732729

 

[YorksLad12]

The suggested times are, we can all agree, properly barking. But if you didn't care about what was in the way... straight out of Interchange, and keep going (missing out Low Moor), through the golf course, underneath Scholes and the M62, rising up to meet the line from Brighouse, which puts you on the slow lines to/from Huddersfield. That would get the journey time down to 20 minutes, non-stop. Ish. Maybe.

 

[dodecahedron67]

I don’t think anyone realises how much of a (relative) traffic generator Halifax is, especially on the hourly Bradford - Hudds shuttle. Take Halifax out and you lose 70-80% of the train’s total passengers

 

[fishwomp]

.
- Bradford to Sheffield, requiring the Horbury curve to be reinstated

Why. It would be faster and cheaper to reinstate the Wortley Curve, less than 0.25 miles, and would enable a sub 1 hour journey - for both of its users...

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't see a scenario in which Bradford to Sheffield via Halifax and Penistone can be done in less than 1 hour and 30 minutes. The reopened Spen route wouldn't interact with the TRU route as it would join the line towards Wakefield and Sheffield at Thornhill, beyond Ravensthorpe. I believe that the plans for a new alignment between Ravensthorpe and Dewsbury leave space to reinstate the old Low Moor to Thornhill route. As well I would have thought that a Bradford to Sheffield service, calling at Cleckheaton, Liversedge, Heckmodwike, Barnsley and Meadowhall would provide competitive journey times, provided that the slow section through Low Moor was avoided and linespeeds on the Hallam line were increased.

So not only would a new heavy rail alignment be needed, as well as the Horbury curve, but now work would be needed to increase speeds through South Yorkshire. It seems like a lot of work for an aspirational timing that could almost be achieved simply by extending the Leeds-Nottingham service to Bradford, something that was planned too happen prior to the pandemic.

As I mentioned earlier there are no plans for any heavy rail down the Spen Valley, and given that it has been earmarked in the early planning of a WY tram alignment it's highly unlikely to ever see a heavy rail project there.

The market from the Spen Valley to Bradford Interchange could be served by the hypothetical service from Sheffield. I would have imagined that given the proposed site of the new station near St James' market, platforms could be added on the avoiding line. It's not the most ideal solution, but still allows a service intended for the Spen Valley to Leeds market to still serve Bradford in some form and allows Bradford Interchange to become the station for trains terminating at Bradford, e.g. Bradford to Manchester fast, Sheffield and London.

The St James' market site is a hangover from NPR when Bradford Council couldn't figure out where they would like a station for it to be. It was little more than an exercise in sticking a pin in a map and choosing the location that way. There's absolutely no demand for a station there, nor will there ever be.

 

[MarkyT]

So not only would a new heavy rail alignment be needed, as well as the Horbury curve, but now work would be needed to increase speeds through South Yorkshire. It seems like a lot of work for an aspirational timing that could almost be achieved simply by extending the Leeds-Nottingham service to Bradford, something that was planned too happen prior to the pandemic.

As I mentioned earlier there are no plans for any heavy rail down the Spen Valley, and given that it has been earmarked in the early planning of a WY tram alignment it's highly unlikely to ever see a heavy rail project there.

The small number of housing developments that have appeared along the alignment seem to keep a path clear of buildings for street-legal light rail, which can tolerate new level crossings for access in drive-on-sight areas. No chance of heavy rail there without massive, possibly highly obtrusive civil engineering or a diversion out of town which kind of defeats the object.

The St James' market site is a hangover from NPR when Bradford Council couldn't figure out where they would like a station for it to be. It was little more than an exercise in sticking a pin in a map and choosing the location that way. There's absolutely no demand for a station there, nor will there ever be.

I worry something nobody really wanted, only perhaps dreamed up in a brainstorming session for a comparative exercise, might get up some traction for political reasons in the vacuum of any other good ideas supported or even actually stated by any formal planning body or political entity.

As to the idea's transport utility, I bring you... Beograd Centar (I may have mentioned this before!). The similarities are remarkable. The old Belgrade terminus was walkable for much of the city, next to a huge coach station, at the centre of the city tram and trolleybus networks. The new one is barely developed, a dour concrete-rafted, New Street style affair, only just gaining a concourse building in 2023 after a long time in planning and construction (starting in Tito days). It's just too far to walk, the wrong side of a big dual carriageway and major junction, fairly impenetrable and scary for visitors on foot (check), up a hill (check), one bus route to central area running every 40(!) minutes. I looked on Streetview in the vicinity for a tram or trolley bus stop to gauge if there were any other transport options nearby. The first I found, on the edge of a fast multilane road with no pedestrian pavement for access, was marked by several wreaths attached to a lamp post, presumably to remember someone killed there in a traffic incident. On my brief virtual Google tour of the area that's the kind of vibe I got. To be fair the area seems to have recieved some attention with new road junctions and safe(r) pedestrian routes to the stops in more recent aerial views. However, Serbian transport expert Vukan Vučić called Prokop the "most disastrous error in Belgrade transportation". Note Prokop is the rather run-down neighbourhood the station is located in, now its common name used by locals (no doubt in jest at the facility's paucity of centrality!). Meanwhile, the former terminus site and its approaches have been given up to Middle Eastern investors who are building a mini-Dubai by the riverside around a six-lane highway spine. I mean who the heck wants a railway to serve such a high-density development in a city centre. The interesting fallout is that because Centar has been so late and inadequate, New Belgrade station, even further away over the river to the west, has become the de facto main station for the entire city, not least because it actually has some facilities and is connected far better to the local tram and bus network.

 

[HSTEd]

For me this would deliver many more benefits than building an entirely new fast alignment from Bradford to Huddersfield, even if the end-journey times are a few minutes longer. Any thoughts on this?

Is anyone actually proposing such a thing, I'm a little lost here

I thought the proposal for a fast alignment to Bradford was to go directly from Manchester/Marsden to Bradford and forget Huddersfield?

Personally I'm not sure going to Bradford is truly worth it, but going to both Huddersfield and Bradford is probably going to cause significant pathing issues on a two track alignment, even with modern high performance EMUs.

I'd be concerned that attempting to reuse an old alignment will slow the line down so much as to render the entire exercise pointless.

 

[cle]

Don't both need to get to Manchester and Leeds far far more than they need to get to one another? Feels like a secondary need, to say the least.

 

[Arkeeos]

Is anyone actually proposing such a thing, I'm a little lost here

In the Network North document they claim a 12min journey time between Huddersfield and Bradford which would presumably have to be some new alignment.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In the Network North document they claim a 12min journey time between Huddersfield and Bradford.

That would be shifting somewhat!

As mentioned upthread, it's currently around 36 minutes (for what's roughly an 18 mile journey) and that's usually with three intermediate station stops.

 

[Bantamzen]

Is anyone actually proposing such a thing, I'm a little lost here

In short, no. There are aspirations to have part of a wider West Yorkshire tram network run down the Spen valley, but nothing involving heavy rail.

I thought the proposal for a fast alignment to Bradford was to go directly from Manchester/Marsden to Bradford and forget Huddersfield?

Personally I'm not sure going to Bradford is truly worth it, but going to both Huddersfield and Bradford is probably going to cause significant pathing issues on a two track alignment, even with modern high performance EMUs.

I'd be concerned that attempting to reuse an old alignment will slow the line down so much as to render the entire exercise pointless.

NPR was never anything more than a fantasy, a political point scoring exercise to make it look like this government were in any way serious about "levelling up" the north. But to this day I'm yet see how this proposed route would have even reached Bradford. Anyone that knows the geography of the area will tell you that Bradford city centre sits in a deep bowl, surrounded on three sides by steep hills. So any new alignment would require extensive tunnelling to get a line from Manchester and then to Leeds anywhere near the city centre. Originally the idea was to have an underground station at the site of the Interchange. So basically it would have had to be a tunnel all the way from the east of Greater Manchester to the outskirts of Leeds. It was totally and utterly unrealistic.

Then along came Bradford's finest politicians and managed to somehow dream up an alternative site for the NPR station away from the city centre, up a hill, across a major road in the middle of an industrial estate. Just the place you want a brand new high speed railway station. And the site (which by the way isn't even on the current alignment of the Bradford-Leeds line, but let's not worry too much about that technicality) has stuck in their minds ever since, morphing from the NPR station to a "gateway" station that will magically transform a run-down industrial estate into a trendy suburban residential area with swanky offices and high rise apartment blocks for the socially upward people. The kind of idea that Labour run councils seem to all too often fantasise in. Just before they run the cities into bankruptcy.

 

[Grimsby town]

So any new alignment would require extensive tunnelling to get a line from Manchester and then to Leeds anywhere near the city centre. Originally the idea was to have an underground station at the site of the Interchange. So basically it would have had to be a tunnel all the way from the east of Greater Manchester to the outskirts of Leeds. It was totally and utterly unrealistic.

I'm not sure why you consider it unrealistic. It's a distance of 40 miles so would require 80 miles of single bore tunneling. HS2 phase 1 has 64 miles so it's definitely feasible.

Saying that I'm not sure it's needed. A tunneled Bradford to Leeds route probably has merit with the existing Interchange to Leeds line being converted to tram/metro.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not sure why you consider it unrealistic. It's a distance of 40 miles so would require 80 miles of single bore tunneling. HS2 phase 1 has 64 miles so it's definitely feasible.

Saying that I'm not sure it's needed. A tunneled Bradford to Leeds route probably has merit with the existing Interchange to Leeds line being converted to tram/metro.

And look what happened to HS2, costs spiralled out of control, and more than half of the project got canned. I'm sorry but HS2 is a perfect example why we can't do anything right in this country, and why NPR was never, ever going to happen. The railway industry here is little more than a very expensive, and increasingly useless joke.

 

[Grimsby town]

And look what happened to HS2, costs spiralled out of control, and more than half of the project got canned. I'm sorry but HS2 is a perfect example why we can't do anything right in this country, and why NPR was never, ever going to happen. The railway industry here is little more than a very expensive, and increasingly useless joke.

I don't think HS2 costs have spiralled out of control. The problem is that numbers were banded about before things like rollingstock had been included in the costs. That and the changes in base year and addition of contingency make it look far worse than it actually is.

It's not just a rail industry problem either. It's all infrastructure. Look at roads schemes for example; billions of pounds for a dozen or so miles of dual carriageway is the going rate.

The cost won't improve by not constructing things. We've got an experienced tunneling workforce from Crossrail and HS2. It makes sense for NPR to use these resources in the coming years. NPR probably has the greatest backing of any infrastructure project in the UK too and the fact that it's tunneled means that its unlikely to impact too many people.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't think HS2 costs have spiralled out of control. The problem is that numbers were banded about before things like rollingstock had been included in the costs. That and the changes in base year and addition of contingency make it look far worse than it actually is.

You don't? The government for one might disagree. Its perhaps why the rest of HS2 has been canned.

It's not just a rail industry problem either. It's all infrastructure. Look at roads schemes for example; billions of pounds for a dozen or so miles of dual carriageway is the going rate.

I know and I agree.

The cost won't improve by not constructing things. We've got an experienced tunneling workforce from Crossrail and HS2. It makes sense for NPR to use these resources in the coming years. NPR probably has the greatest backing of any infrastructure project in the UK too and the fact that it's tunneled means that its unlikely to impact too many people.

I'm sorry to say but NPR is dead in the water.

 

[Grimsby town]

You don't? The government for one might disagree. Its perhaps why the rest of HS2 has been canned.


I know and I agree.


I'm sorry to say but NPR is dead in the water.

The government is basically completely at odds with the whole transport industry in this country now. I'll take the experts point of view over Sunak and Harper. Most of what the government now says completely contradicts what they were saying a year or two ago not just on HS2 or rail. They've tried to use HS2/active travel as an electioneering tool (unsuccessfully) so have to make HS2 look as bad as possible.

I don't see how NPR is dead. I know for a fact that it's being worked on currently. I'd be surprised if a full tunnel from Manchester to Leeds is ever built but I'm fairly confident that we'll see at least the Manchester to Marsden tunnel.

 

[Bantamzen]

The government is basically completely at odds with the whole transport industry in this country now. I'll take the experts point of view over Sunak and Harper. Most of what the government now says completely contradicts what they were saying a year or two ago not just on HS2 or rail. They've tried to use HS2/active travel as an electioneering tool (unsuccessfully) so have to make HS2 look as bad as possible.

I don't see how NPR is dead. I know for a fact that it's being worked on currently. I'd be surprised if a full tunnel from Manchester to Leeds is ever built but I'm fairly confident that we'll see at least the Manchester to Marsden tunnel.

Just because someone is "working on it", doesn't mean that it will ever get even to a stage of business case building. Plenty of projects (like HS2 to Manchester / Leeds) have been canned even beyond that stage. From what I can gleam thus far, NPR is little more than a few crayon marks on a bunch of maps. If it were to be even close to being a reality by now we would have something a bit more firm. With the NPR site seems pretty vague on the issue.

In the current climate I simply cannot see a case for a Manchester to Marsden bore with nothing else happening. We're talking at least 15 miles as the crow flies for what exactly? A few minutes saved, and spitting out into a bottleneck close to the top of the moors? For another 6 miles you could at least emerge somewhere around Huddersfield, and wouldn't have to have as steep an ascent to the summit. Frankly it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially once TRU is complete and wired. I'm sorry but once HS2 to Manchester got canned, that was game over for NPR. If anyone is still working on some new Crayola maps, I'd say now would be a good time to re-evaluate career choices.

 

[HSTEd]

In the current climate I simply cannot see a case for a Manchester to Marsden bore with nothing else happening. We're talking at least 15 miles as the crow flies for what exactly? A few minutes saved, and spitting out into a bottleneck close to the top of the moors? For another 6 miles you could at least emerge somewhere around Huddersfield, and wouldn't have to have as steep an ascent to the summit. Frankly it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially once TRU is complete and wired. I'm sorry but once HS2 to Manchester got canned, that was game over for NPR. If anyone is still working on some new Crayola maps, I'd say now would be a good time to re-evaluate career choices.

A new line renders Manchester surburban operatinos on the line towards Huddersfield a non entity for timetable planning purposes and would allow marsden to Manchester in something like 9 minutes, even if the train stops at Marsden!

Modern multiple units aren't really concerned about gradients. High speed lines are now built with gradients not far off the Lickey after all!
AS for being only "six miles to Huddersfield", looking at a map I can't really see a practical approach that isn't simply all in tunnel.

There doesn't even seem to be a particularly obvious place for a tunnel to emerge in central Huddersfield given the terrain, and in any case a future extension of the line towards Leeds would probably bypass the existing Huddersfield station anyway.

Given that TPRU is not projected to be completed until the 2040s even by the claims of the rail industry...........

 

[Bantamzen]

A new line renders Manchester surburban operatinos on the line towards Huddersfield a non entity for timetable planning purposes and would allow marsden to Manchester in something like 9 minutes, even if the train stops at Marsden!

Modern multiple units aren't really concerned about gradients. High speed lines are now built with gradients not far off the Lickey after all!
AS for being only "six miles to Huddersfield", looking at a map I can't really see a practical approach that isn't simply all in tunnel.

There doesn't even seem to be a particularly obvious place for a tunnel to emerge in central Huddersfield given the terrain, and in any case a future extension of the line towards Leeds would probably bypass the existing Huddersfield station anyway.

Given that TPRU is not projected to be completed until the 2040s even by the claims of the rail industry...........

I still stand by my assertion that NPR won't be completed in the 2040s / 2050s / 2060s / 2070s.... Because it will never start...

No government is going to ever fund this after HS2. At the very best it was a political sweetener for when HS2 started to be dialled back. Now that most of that has been canned, dropping NPR will be a chinch, in fact we've already seen this week DoT proudly announcing £250m of Northern Powerhouse funds being used for road improvements... In London!!

NPR is dead. Long live NPR!!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I still stand by my assertion that NPR won't be completed in the 2040s / 2050s / 2060s / 2070s.... Because it will never start...

No government is going to ever fund this after HS2. At the very best it was a political sweetener for when HS2 started to be dialled back. Now that most of that has been canned, dropping NPR will be a chinch, in fact we've already seen this week DoT proudly announcing £250m of Northern Powerhouse funds being used for road improvements... In London!!

NPR is dead. Long live NPR!!

I agree with your general sentiment that NPR is nothing more than a promise of "jam tomorrow". The proposal for a new station on the edge of Bradford is perhaps more likely to happen, though it isn't likely to have the impact that certain stakeholders/cheerleaders hope it will. If I was a Bradford resident, I'd be keeping a close eye on which councillors were banging the drum the loudest on that one.
The existing line from Huddersfield to Bradford has always been a bit slow and indirect, but I can't see that changing much between now and the next glacial maximum. At best, we may get wires and more modern units that will trim a few minutes off the journey time. About 15 years ago I commuted between Huddersfield and Bradford, and the limited-stop bus (then the X6, now the X63) took around the same time as the train between the two places- my decision on which mode to use always came down to the timing.

With a limitless budget you could build a much faster rail alignment, but I can't see it happening.

 

[Grimsby town]

I still stand by my assertion that NPR won't be completed in the 2040s / 2050s / 2060s / 2070s.... Because it will never start...

No government is going to ever fund this after HS2. At the very best it was a political sweetener for when HS2 started to be dialled back. Now that most of that has been canned, dropping NPR will be a chinch, in fact we've already seen this week DoT proudly announcing £250m of Northern Powerhouse funds being used for road improvements... In London!!

NPR is dead. Long live NPR!!

There was a strategic outline business case produced which was obviously wrecked by the government's attempt to win votes. So clearly the project is more developed than you believe. Rail projects tend to be done a lot more behind closed doors in recent years. See MML electrification and TRU.

We'll see who's right. If there's one new major railway line likely to be built in the UK, its between Leeds and Manchester. There's so much political backing for it. Proper leveling up of the north would need trillions of £s. Spending a £15 billion on a rail tunnel makes it look like the government is doing something without actually spending anywhere near the levels needed. That's why I'm certain it will happen. It's an easy token gesture.

 

[Bantamzen]

There was a strategic outline business case produced which was obviously wrecked by the government's attempt to win votes. So clearly the project is more developed than you believe. Rail projects tend to be done a lot more behind closed doors in recent years. See MML electrification and TRU.

We'll see who's right. If there's one new major railway line likely to be built in the UK, its between Leeds and Manchester. There's so much political backing for it. Proper leveling up of the north would need trillions of £s. Spending a £15 billion on a rail tunnel makes it look like the government is doing something without actually spending anywhere near the levels needed. That's why I'm certain it will happen. It's an easy token gesture.

Well you can believe what you want. But we have seen a much more high profile, and arguably strategically more important projects canned. Leeds to Manchester will barely register in Whitehall compared to them, and will certainly not be an "easy win".

Sorry but nobody who has taken notice of politics for decades would believe even for a second it will happen. If there was even the slightest chance it would be plastered all over the media constantly, especially in the run up to a general election. Yet it barely makes it out of a few council meeting minutes. If anyone is still working on the idea, I hope they are getting paid well because they are wasting their time.