Yet more weird Grand Central behaviour

[Haywain]

The question is whether all operators who are obliged to accept inter-available tickets are using an instance of the same system, or have some adapted it to include their own creative "magic"?

No, it is one national system and seat availability for one retailer will be the same for all retailers. The only variation will be in how each company manages availability for their own trains. The instance is just what they get to see and manage.

 

[OscarH]

seat availability for one retailer will be the same for all retailers

While in practical terms this is (currently) true in production, the system allows varying by retailer (and this does sometimes happen in test, intentionally or not) and I've been told this ability is intended behaviour

 

[redreni]

[...] My understanding is that operators can use any of the following pieces of information to discriminate during availability and booking requests: from station, to station, route code, passenger discount (i.e. which railcard they have), retailer, sales channel (TVM, ticket office, web application).

Very illuminating.

"Discriminate" seems like a very good word. It's not at all difficult to think of situations where TOCs making use of these methods of suppressing sales of cheaper tickets might want to consider the possibility that that word might crop up in court.

 

[Hadders]

I think I can reproduce this one too.

Route '.' (Any Permitted) Super Off-Peak CBA fare set by Thameslink/Great Nothern...

View attachment 143471

Exactly the same train for the same segment, more expensive Off-Peak, route '.' (Any Permitted) fare... magically, it's got availability!

View attachment 143472

And of course, GR144700 (like all LNER services) has the "Compulsory Reservations" flag set so this is more than just denying passengers seats, it denies retailers from selling completely valid itineraries against these tickets.

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How many passengers have been overcharged due to this sort of nonsense?

Exactly this. I put a thread on here a few years back when this sort of thing first started happening. LNER (might've been VTEC at the time) were trying to stop fares they considered too cheap being used on their trains (would they still get an ORCATS allocation?)

To add to the farce LNER now sell Advance tickets for these trains....

 

[Gaelan]

There is not nearly enough oversight of what operators do with RARS in terms of discriminating against passengers based on ticket type / route code / discount status code / retailer.

It occurs to me that TrainSplit could at least gather some data to "catch them in the act" - when you get an RARS response with no seats for a flexible ticket, make a note, then if a later query for a different ticket type shows it as available then write it to a log of shenanigans.*

Mind you, I doubt y'all could do much beyond naming and shaming, but (if you're not already doing so) it seems like it'd be useful to at least have a list of situations where it happens.

*I suspect it's not quite this simple, as occasionally reservations may genuinely be freed up; but I imagine you could filter out these occasional cases by looking at frequency of occurrences.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

No, it is one national system and seat availability for one retailer will be the same for all retailers. The only variation will be in how each company manages availability for their own trains. The instance is just what they get to see and manage.

If I've understood correctly, RARS is a national system. But if an operator restricts the availability of seats based on ticket type and potentially other journey details which should have no bearing on whether a seat reservation is actually available, that's not just a variation in managing availability. In conjunction with the same operator's ability to make seat reservation mandatory, where a proposed itinerary includes one of their services that operator can effectively restrict the fares which a retailer can offer.

What remains unclear to me is whether RARS, as designed, was intended to give individual operators that ability.

 

[Haywain]

What remains unclear to me is whether RARS, as designed, was intended to give individual operators that ability.

Definitely intentional as there have, for a very long time, been services that are mandatory reservation (Caledonian Sleepers, for example). The issues under discussion in this thread are about misuse, nothing else.

 

[Wallsendmag]

While in practical terms this is (currently) true in production, the system allows varying by retailer (and this does sometimes happen in test, intentionally or not) and I've been told this ability is intended behaviour

No that would most likely be a function of RCS (Retail Control Service). I was under the impression that the current version of RARS is RARS2 , the original RARS not having made it to production.

 

[OscarH]

No that would most likely be a function of RCS (Retail Control Service). I was under the impression that the current version of RARS is RARS2 , the original RARS not having made it to production.

I agree it should only be RCS that controls that, but my understanding is that RARS(2) allows this, in line with it's whole philosophy of just allowing as much as possible without any validation

 

[Adam Williams]

I was under the impression that the current version of RARS is RARS2 , the original RARS not having made it to production.

"RARS is used to refer to the actual service that replaces NRS, whilst RARS2 refers to the programme to deliver RARS (now with supplier Sqills)"

But yes, the first KCOM RARS programme failed.

No that would most likely be a function of RCS (Retail Control Service).

Yeah, you'd think so wouldn't you?!

 

[Wallsendmag]

"RARS is used to refer to the actual service that replaces NRS, whilst RARS2 refers to the programme to deliver RARS (now with supplier Sqills)"

But yes, the first KCOM RARS programme failed.



Yeah, you'd think so wouldn't you?!

Having used the reservation service since CRS I’m more than familiar thanks

 

[Furrball]

Another Avanti one is it is not possible to buy open single or return journeys for Glasgow to Burton On Trent and vice versa

 

[Adam Williams]

Having used the reservation service since CRS I’m more than familiar thanks

So .. you should know that RARS is used pretty commonly to refer to the system that's currently in production?

 

[Wallsendmag]

So .. you should know that RARS is used pretty commonly to refer to the system that's currently in production?

But ive never heard of an update to RARS2 from the current system

 

[londonbridge]

There’s an argument going on the Sunderland forums as to whether you can use a ticket purchased from Northern on Grand Central between Sunderland and Hartlepool. I didn’t think Northern did advances between these two stations but a quick random search on Trainline shows that apparently they do…..I’ve also found a Grand Central only anytime day single? But surely if you go back to Sunderland station after the match and get a standard day single it should be valid on either operator?

 

[Watershed]

There’s an argument going on the Sunderland forums as to whether you can use a ticket purchased from Northern on Grand Central between Sunderland and Hartlepool. I didn’t think Northern did advances between these two stations but a quick random search on Trainline shows that apparently they do…..I’ve also found a Grand Central only anytime day single? But surely if you go back to Sunderland station after the match and get a standard day single it should be valid on either operator?

Yes, an "Any Permitted" ticket would be valid on either operator.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There’s an argument going on the Sunderland forums as to whether you can use a ticket purchased from Northern on Grand Central between Sunderland and Hartlepool. I didn’t think Northern did advances between these two stations but a quick random search on Trainline shows that apparently they do…..I’ve also found a Grand Central only anytime day single? But surely if you go back to Sunderland station after the match and get a standard day single it should be valid on either operator?

Yes, an "Any Permitted" ticket would be valid on either operator.

They are a tad more expensive though. Obviously, a cheap (route "AP Northern Only") advance ticket, wouldn't normally ever be valid on Grand Central.

 

[londonbridge]

As I thought, only there were the usual semi-nonsense posts saying “Grand Central told me Northern tickets aren’t valid”…obviously I don’t know what tickets were held.

 

[Deerfold]

There’s an argument going on the Sunderland forums as to whether you can use a ticket purchased from Northern on Grand Central between Sunderland and Hartlepool. I didn’t think Northern did advances between these two stations but a quick random search on Trainline shows that apparently they do…..I’ve also found a Grand Central only anytime day single? But surely if you go back to Sunderland station after the match and get a standard day single it should be valid on either operator?

It would be.

Might the tickets bought from Northern be Duo tickets for two people? Their validity isn't clear - and mostly they're sold on routes with no or little competition.

 

[londonbridge]

As I said I obviously don’t know what tickets are/were involved but when it comes to messages about rail travel on football club forums I’ve learnt to take what I read with a (very) large pinch of salt.

 

[Watershed]

It would be.

Might the tickets bought from Northern be Duo tickets for two people? Their validity isn't clear - and mostly they're sold on routes with no or little competition.

Northern Duo tickets can only routed "Northern only" for journeys where Northern don't set the interavailable (i.e. Any Permitted) fare. In such cases, the TSA prohibits Northern (or other TOCs in an equivalent position) from creating TOC-only walk-up fares, other than on a temporary basis.

Northern are obviously the fare setters for the interavailable fare here, so a Duo fare would equally be valid on GC.

 

[BRX]

Does LNER label all of its services as "seat reservations are mandatory" now?

I note this pops up on all the itineraries the LNER site gives me for journeys from London to Edinburgh, when I am looking to buy a super off peak single. Very misleading as it would suggest to most people that they are obliged to use that ticket on a particular train.

 

[Hadders]

Does LNER label all of its services as "seat reservations are mandatory" now?

They do. In reality a reservation is not required to travel on a LNER train.

 

[BRX]

They do. In reality a reservation is not required to travel on a LNER train.

They ought to be taken to task on it.

Just now I'm trying to book a super off peak single on their app and it is telling me that the ticket type is not available for the journey I've chosen. I don't know if this is because that train is marked as fully booked. For some reason, it does let me do it on their website.

 

[yorkie]

Does LNER label all of its services as "seat reservations are mandatory" now?

Yes

I note this pops up on all the itineraries the LNER site gives me for journeys from London to Edinburgh, when I am looking to buy a super off peak single. Very misleading as it would suggest to most people that they are obliged to use that ticket on a particular train.

Agreed, but there isn't anyone who has both the power and desire to stop them doing this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2023 ==

They ought to be taken to task on it.

They should, but there isn't an effective watchdog who even understands what's going on, let alone cares, so they won't be. And they know they can get away with it.

 

[Haywain]

Just now I'm trying to book a super off peak single on their app and it is telling me that the ticket type is not available for the journey I've chosen.

You could just choose a different journey time. You already know it's flexible in that respect.

 

[yorkie]

You could just choose a different journey time. You already know it's flexible in that respect.

Good workaround but not really an ideal solution; LNER are misleading people and some people are easier to mislead than others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good workaround but not really an ideal solution; LNER are misleading people and some people are easier to mislead than others.

Part of it to be fair is so they can control which trains are open for sale in a situation where timetable changes and disruption are the norm. It isn't *purely* a conspiracy.

It would be much better if NRS had a facility for them to do this without this silly and misleading workaround.

 

[BRX]

You could just choose a different journey time. You already know it's flexible in that respect.

I know that, but most people wouldn't. They might end up travelling on a service that's inconvenient to them, or worse, shelling out for a more expensive ticket than necessary.

Also there are various disadvantages to buying for a different itinerary from the one I actually want to travel on. For example, there are other non-LNER legs that I might like to have a reservation on. And if the journey gets delayed and I claim compensation, it might be questioned whether I really travelled and intended to travel on the one that got delayed. It's easier if it matches the itinerary that goes alongside the purchase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know that, but most people wouldn't. They might end up travelling on a service that's inconvenient to them, or worse, shelling out for a more expensive ticket than necessary.

This is the biggest issue with it - people will be being mis-sold First Class tickets, which is of questionable legality in my view.