Merseyrail Contactless payments

[Bletchleyite]

I wish London Underground would accept Aztec codes, at least at interchanges where Maltese Cross journeys are made.

I think that's in the works. The problem is the extremely low throughput of present scanner designs, I believe, combined with the confined space of many Tube ticket halls.

 

[Djgr]

If you are looking for problems here is one for you.

Differentiating between the tourist hordes on the ferries and the locals using it to "cross the water", where the tourist pay substantially more for the "cruise" experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are looking for problems here is one for you.

Differentiating between the tourist hordes on the ferries and the locals using it to "cross the water", where the tourist pay substantially more for the "cruise" experience.

Far easier than with paper tickets where it's quite easy to get away with it by simply staying on board because nobody seems to ever check. If you tap in on one side of the river and out on the other, then it's a normal cross-river single. If you tap in and out on the same side, then it's the cruise fare. If you tap in but not out, or out but not in, it's assumed you did a cruise and you are charged that (the general principle of contactless being that you charge the maximum fare it could be based on the taps, and additional taps can be used to reduce the fare, e.g. TfL's pink validators).

 

[Krokodil]

So the system could very easily charge a different fare if you go Hunts Cross-Lime St Low Level compared to Hunts Cross-South Parkway-Lime St Main Line (or indeed Hunts Cross-Lime St Main Line direct)

It would help here if the Fast line platforms at Lime Street High Level were barriered. Quite apart from the amount of revenue lost from the likes of Runcorn.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Of course the plan is that there will no such entity as Arriva Merseyside in several years, certainly from a customer viewpoint (as per London, Manchester).

I know, and Arriva Merseyside have a very simple fare structure, but the point is that the technology is already there and in use.

I’m frankly amazed that Merseytravel are not further down the road.

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It would help here if the Fast line platforms at Lime Street High Level were barriered

It probably would, but then again if you don’t tap out at Lime St you get charged the maximum fare.

Manchester Metrolink is entirely unbarriered and it copes.

 

[mrd269697]

Will people still be able to pay with cash? A lot of people still use it in Merseyside. Stations should be kept staffed if this is implemented - for upkeep of station, passenger information ect.

 

[renegademaster]

The multiple possible route problem is solved in London with purple validators you are supposed to touch at interchange stations , if you forget they presume you took the quickest route

 

[Krokodil]

I know, and Arriva Merseyside have a very simple fare structure, but the point is that the technology is already there and in use.

I’m frankly amazed that Merseytravel are not further down the road.

In Wales it won't be long before all bus companies come under a common touch-in/out system. As things stand you can use contactless on even the small operators but can only take advantage of multi-operator capping with a paper ticket (e.g. 1bws)

It probably would, but then again if you don’t tap out at Lime St you get charged the maximum fare.

Assuming of course that you tapped in to begin with. Plenty of fare evaders come in to the fast line platforms from unbarriered stations.

Manchester Metrolink is entirely unbarriered and it copes.

Metrolink does have high levels of evasion. Of course many European systems are unbarriered but regard evasion as a minor issue, public subsidy is considered an acceptable thing (unlile in the UK where everything is supposed to turn a profit) and fares are kept dirt cheap with roving RPI gangs to come down like a tonne of bricks on evaders.

I wonder how leaky James St is. It's an obvious hole in the "as long as there's barriers at one end it'll be fine" plan.

 

[renegademaster]

In Wales it won't be long before all bus companies come under a common touch-in/out system. As things stand you can use contactless on even the small operators but can only take advantage of multi-operator capping with a paper ticket (e.g. 1bws)


Assuming of course that you tapped in to begin with. Plenty of fare evaders come in to the fast line platforms from unbarriered stations.


Metrolink does have high levels of evasion. Of course many European systems are unbarriered but regard evasion as a minor issue, public subsidy is considered an acceptable thing (unlile in the UK where everything is supposed to turn a profit) and fares are kept dirt cheap with roving RPI gangs to come down like a tonne of bricks on evaders.

I wonder how leaky James St is. It's an obvious hole in the "as long as there's barriers at one end it'll be fine" plan.

In Germany/Austria I saw multiple times in the week I was there, multiple instances of revenue protection staff backed up by police (who carry Glocks or MP5s).

On tramlink they come out every week or so and on the ubarriered southeastern metro services I hardly ever see them.

It isn't true the continent views fare evasion as something minor.

 

[johncrossley]

Will people still be able to pay with cash? A lot of people still use it in Merseyside.

People with cash can still take advantage of contactless. They can take the cash to a bank or post office to top up an account. They will give you a card that can be used for tapping in and out.

 

[Red Rover]

We were talking about revenue protection. For that it doesn't differ - you either tapped in or you didn't, just the same as you either purchased a ticket before boarding or you didn't. The same system of Penalty Fares and prosecutions is used to enforce.

One exception: you can just automatically apply a maximum fare or standard fare if you touched in and not out.

The same way people don't collect their trainline tickets? In my opinion this is being done to copy a system that is different, you can say the principle is the same and you'd be correct but as it stands I can't see this happening or fully rolling out until a total full Merseytravel system takes place, aren't South Eastern wanting more or needing more money for their roll out, how much do merchants charge for this also? I'm not against these by the way, I'm totally against this if this is used for progress when in fact its used to de staff train stations in some of the most deprived areas of the country.

 

[johncrossley]

In Germany/Austria I saw multiple times in the week I was there, multiple instances of revenue protection staff backed up by police (who carry Glocks or MP5s).

On tramlink they come out every week or so and on the ubarriered southeastern metro services I hardly ever see them.

It isn't true the continent views fare evasion as something minor.

You missed the point. It was already mentioned "fares are kept dirt cheap with roving RPI gangs to come down like a tonne of bricks on evaders." It is a minor issue, because Austria/Germany etc. accept that some fare evasion is inevitable but they are happy with the fact that the use of roving inspectors acts as a deterrent and the penalty fares issued recovers some of the lost revenue.

 

[Red Rover]

If you are looking for problems here is one for you.

Differentiating between the tourist hordes on the ferries and the locals using it to "cross the water", where the tourist pay substantially more for the "cruise" experience.

Same as the Staten Island ferry and the one that goes to Ellis Island, I simply think this will be very complicated to do, wait until Merseytravel covers all modes within the Merseyside area, does Manchester's Bee include the trains?

 

[sprunt]

Same as the Staten Island ferry and the one that goes to Ellis Island, I simply think this will be very complicated to do, wait until Merseytravel covers all modes within the Merseyside area, does Manchester's Bee include the trains?

The Staten Island ferry is completely free, so I'm not sure where that comes into any discussion of fee charging.

I don't understand why you keep trying to imply that Merseyrail is different from the other parts of the rail system where contactless touch-in/touch-out payment is accepted on trains that run beyond the area of operation as well as entirely within it, and it causes no problems at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same as the Staten Island ferry and the one that goes to Ellis Island, I simply think this will be very complicated to do, wait until Merseytravel covers all modes within the Merseyside area, does Manchester's Bee include the trains?

I explained above why this is trivially easy, indeed easier than paper tickets.

 

[Red Rover]

I explained above why this is trivially easy, indeed easier than paper tickets.

If its trivially easy why haven't many others adopted it? Does Manchester have an equivalent of a one day travel card that encompasses all transport?

 

[Djgr]

The same way people don't collect their trainline tickets? In my opinion this is being done to copy a system that is different, you can say the principle is the same and you'd be correct but as it stands I can't see this happening or fully rolling out until a total full Merseytravel system takes place, aren't South Eastern wanting more or needing more money for their roll out, how much do merchants charge for this also? I'm not against these by the way, I'm totally against this if this is used for progress when in fact its used to de staff train stations in some of the most deprived areas of the cocountry.

To be fair, I think you are ignoring all the comments people have helpfully made to address the concerns that you have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If its trivially easy why haven't many others adopted it? Does Manchester have an equivalent of a one day travel card that encompasses all transport?

Who was talking about travel cards? We were talking about implementing contactless on the Mersey Ferry.

 

[Djgr]

If its trivially easy why haven't many others adopted it? Does Manchester have an equivalent of a one day travel card that encompasses all transport?

Yes it does, although you'd be hard pushed to find a ferry or a decent beach come to mention it.

 

[Red Rover]

Who was talking about travel cards? We were talking about implementing contactless on the Mersey Ferry.

I quoted your point about it being trivially easy.

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Yes it does, although you'd be hard pushed to find a ferry or a decent beach come to mention it.

Is there? I'm sorry I never knew that, what is the Manchester one called, I'll get it on Saturday.

 

[mrd269697]

People with cash can still take advantage of contactless. They can take the cash to a bank or post office to top up an account. They will give you a card that can be used for tapping in and out.

Not everyone wants to use a card. Not everyone has one. There should always be the option to pay with both. I don’t believe someone who has cash, a form of payment, should be denied access to a service because they want to use cash.

 

[johncrossley]

Not everyone wants to use a card. Not everyone has one. There should always be the option to pay with both. I don’t believe someone who has cash, a form of payment, should be denied access to a service because they want to use cash.

The card is merely a token, to identify you to the railway. When you pay at the ticket office, it is basically the same. They give you a token, in this case in the form of an orange card, commonly known as a "ticket". You can't technically pay by cash for a train journey. You have to get a token ("ticket") first.

 

[Djgr]

I quoted your point about it being trivially easy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2023 ==


Is there? I'm sorry I never knew that, what is the Manchester one called, I'll get it on Saturday.

I have provided a screenshot from the tfgm website

 

[cool110]

Is there? I'm sorry I never knew that, what is the Manchester one called, I'll get it on Saturday.

I have provided a screenshot from the tfgm website

There's also the Wayfarer that covers parts of the neighbouring counties as well, I've used them when starting at Chorley a few times.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Eh? Nobody but enthusiasts do the silly stuff like going Ormskirk to Southport via Burscough.

Why not?
It's the quicker option by train (especially towards Southport).

Although then again the direct buses (375 and 385) are 30-40m depending on time of day, rivalling the train time (and definitely beating it on cost).

 

[Red Rover]

I have provided a screenshot from the tfgm website

Thank you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2023 ==

There's also the Wayfarer that covers parts of the neighbouring counties as well, I've used them when starting at Chorley a few times.

Thank you, I know about them but they're a fair bit more expensive, great value if travelling about though.

 

[Krokodil]

If its trivially easy why haven't many others adopted it?

Would you like a list of adoptees?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not?

It is a quarter of the frequency, later first train, earlier last train, less reliable and there's 15 minutes (about 1km) walk in the middle of it.

If you can do a journey on Merseyrail it is the default.

 

[Red Rover]

Docklands Light Railway fare evaders dodge almost £11m in decade

Staff are being placed at entrances and exits of the Docklands Light Railway to tackle fare evasion.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Hadders]

Docklands Light Railway fare evaders dodge almost £11m in decade

Staff are being placed at entrances and exits of the Docklands Light Railway to tackle fare evasion.

www.bbc.co.uk

Just over £1m a year doesn’t actually sound that much in the grand scheme of things.