Should Northern / Transpennine Only fares be interchangeable?

[Joeyjoefro]

If both Northern Trains & Transpennine Express are owned by DfT OLR Holdings (Government), why is it that some tickets for either are not valid on the other, when they both use the northern route for Liverpool - Manchester and vice versa?
Why's it so complicated to get from A to B!

 

[Watershed]

If both Northern Trains & Transpennine Express are owned by DfT OLR Holdings (Government), why is it that some tickets for either are not valid on the other, when they both use the northern route for Liverpool - Manchester and vice versa?
Why's it so complicated to get from A to B!

Historically they were separate operators that competed for different parts of the market - Northern broadly speaking being 'cheap and cheerful', TPE being the more expensive but quicker option.

It's only this year that they have both come under the OLR and despite rumours of a merger, they are still very much being run as separate companies that cannot possibly cooperate on anything.

There will no doubt be the usual excuses about 'competition law' and suchlike, but in reality that isn't really the reason why. The government could coordinate a "fares simplification" exercise if it were sufficiently bothered - but it's not.

 

[TUC]

Chances are that jointly valid tickets would be more expensive than the current arrangement. How would it be to passengers' benefit?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Chances are that jointly valid tickets would be more expensive than the current arrangement. How would it be to passengers' benefit?

More flexibility. Passengers also wouldn't get PF'd or TIR'd when using an Anytime or Off Peak "TPE only" ticket on a Northern service, or vice-versa. Not everyone wants to save 10p and end up being lumbered with some inflexible TOC specific ticket. (Avanti are particularly notorious for pushing these).

 

[TUC]

More flexibility. Passengers also wouldn't get PF'd or TIR'd when using an Anytime or Off Peak "TPE only" ticket on a Northern service, or vice-versa. Not everyone wants to save 10p and end up being lumbered with some inflexible TOC specific ticket. (Avanti are particularly notorious for pushing these).

But why should everyone pay more for the sake of those who don't bother to take any notice of the restrictions printed on their ticket?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But why should everyone pay more for the sake of those who don't bother to take any notice of the restrictions printed on their ticket?

Not everyone wants to save a handful of pennies by being bound to some relatively inflexible TOC specific ticket. You only need to look at all those who inadvertently get caught up in the 'Disputes and Prosecutions' sub-thread. Rail travel should be simple, turn up and go, particularly so on short journeys, such as Stockport to Manchester.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Not everyone wants to save a handful of pennies by being bound to some relatively inflexible TOC specific ticket.

Those people shouldn't buy TOC specific tickets then. TOC specific tickets aren't the only ones available.

You only need to look at all those who inadvertently get caught up in the 'Disputes and Prosecutions' sub-thread. Rail travel should be simple, turn up and go, particularly so on short journeys, such as Stockport to Manchester.

If people choose to just buy the cheapest ticket available, ignore or don't read any T&Cs and get caught out that is their own stupid fault. When things are the cheapest it doesn't take much intelligence to work out there is a reason they are the cheapest and try to find out why.

 

[TUC]

Not everyone wants to save a handful of pennies by being bound to some relatively inflexible TOC specific ticket. You only need to look at all those who inadvertently get caught up in the 'Disputes and Prosecutions' sub-thread. Rail travel should be simple, turn up and go, particularly so on short journeys, such as Stockport to Manchester.

Handful of pennies?

Anytime Short Return Manchester to Leeds Any Permitted £39.10

Anytime Short Return. Manchester to Leeds Northern Only £25.60

 

[Hadders]

Where a TOC only ticket offers a significant saving then I believe they should be offered. But wher ethey don't they should be removed. An example of such a ticket is:

Milton Keynes to London Off Peak Day Return:
Any Permitted £23.50
Avanti Only £23.10

The Avanti only ticket offers no real saving and really should be removed.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Anytime Short Return Manchester to Leeds Any Permitted £39.10

Anytime Short Return. Manchester to Leeds Northern Only £25.60

In that particular example, the latter should instead perhaps be route "via Hebden Bridge", as is the case with Manchester Stns - Huddersfield fares, and at least then allows for the possibility of change of route excesses, which isn't possible for TOC restricted fares.

Concur with @Hadders.

Nonsense that a "route Avanti" Anytime Day Single from Macclesfield to Manchester is £11.90, exactly the same as the "route via Stockport" alternative.

 

[TUC]

(Deleted)

 

[yorkie]

If both Northern Trains & Transpennine Express are owned by DfT OLR Holdings (Government), why is it that some tickets for either are not valid on the other, when they both use the northern route for Liverpool - Manchester and vice versa?

If you want advice for a particular journey, please state your journey requirements in a new thread (or use this one if you like) and we can advise accordingly.

Why's it so complicated to get from A to B!

You can get a ticket that is valid on any train, if you want the flexibility.

There is no compulsion to purchase a ticket that is restricted in any way.

 

[TUC]

Where a TOC only ticket offers a significant saving then I believe they should be offered. But wher ethey don't they should be removed. An example of such a ticket is:

Milton Keynes to London Off Peak Day Return:
Any Permitted £23.50
Avanti Only £23.10

The Avanti only ticket offers no real saving and really should be removed.

If I'm in a supermarket I'm likely to be faced with several variations of a similar product, some with only a few pence difference in price. I and most other people are perfectly capable of making a choice. Why shouldn't we have the same choice with rail tickets?

 

[Hadders]

If I'm in a supermarket I'm likely to be faced with several variations of a similar product, some with only a few pence difference in price. I and most other people are perfectly capable of making a choice. Why shouldn't we have the same choice with rail tickets?

Supermarket comparision with rail ticketing generally don't work.

With rail travel you have to purchase your ticket before you board the train. In a supermarket you select your item and then pay for them. If you get to the checkout and realise you've made a mistake you can change the product without penalty or threat of prosecution.

 

[WAB]

Where there is a substantial difference in service offer, I don't see why the restriction can't remain to give people choice. But on flows where there are multiple 'regional' service groups, or multiple 'InterCity' service groups, there should not be the same differentiation.

 

[mangyiscute]

The way I see it the issue is with ticketing websites/apps not making it clear enough what ticket you have bought and what trains this ticket is valid on - if they had perhaps a big pop-up (which can be disabled, but it is on by default) so that the first time you buy an advance, it says "valid for this train only", the first time you buy an off peak, it says "valid at these times" and then shows the relevant restriction codes alongside any routeing/TOC specific rules, and similarly for an anytime ticket.

 

[AndrewE]

Given that TransPennine "Express" run all the stopping trains from Manchester to Huddersfield I think it is qute reasonable for people to expect to be able to use any train going their way.

Admittedly I have just had a look and didn't see any operator-specific fares there, but it is mad that you get identical fares for any operator or Avanti-only between Crewe and Liverpool. There can be no public justification for the Avanti-only one other than that it allows them to keep all the money: there is no benefit to the passenget but lots of potential expense and grief - and consequently people being put off getting the train again!

 

[BenS]

There are routes that can be done on either Northern or TPE. The same is true with sections of the ECML routes served by both LNER and TPE. All these companies are ultimately part of the same organisation.

Perhaps it should be cheaper to buy a ticket for a specific train at a specific time. However if that train ends up being cancelled, it could be frustrating to have another train travel the same route go by before the next train that your ticket will be accepted on.

Perhaps all three companies could cooperate more when trains are delayed or cancelled, without making all tickets interchangeable?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The only trans-Pennine route shared by both operators is the Hope Valley (and even then only with a different route through the Manchester suburbs). Heading west from Leeds on the Huddersfield route you can only get as far as Huddersfield with Northern, and even then only by changing trains at Bradford or Brighouse. If you want a flexible ticket, they are available at a bit of a premium.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2023 ==

Perhaps it should be cheaper to buy a ticket for a specific train at a specific time. However if that train ends up being cancelled, it could be frustrating to have another train travel the same route go by before the next train that your ticket will be accepted on.

Perhaps all three companies could cooperate more when trains are delayed or cancelled, without making all tickets interchangeable?

It usually IS possible to save money with advances. I'm not sure of the legal technicalities as I'm out of practice, but generally if a train you had an advance for is cancelled, you're able to get the next available train regardless of operator. Even if no acceptance has been formally agreed on a particular day, having a word with the guard on the train you want to board may get results.

However I'm not railway staff nor a legal professional, and this should not be taken as legal advice.

 

[BenS]

Both TPE and Northern run trains from Hull to Leeds, or Leeds and Manchester.
My comment was not about the flexibility to get any train, but wanting to get a train as soon as possible if the specific train you book on is cancelled (not that uncommon a scenario).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2023 ==

I'm not sure of the legal technicalities as I'm out of practice, but generally if a train you had an advance for is cancelled, you're able to get the next available train regardless of operator. Even if no acceptance has been formally agreed on a particular day, having a word with the guard on the train you want to board may get results.

However I'm not railway staff nor a legal professional, and this should not be taken as legal advice.

A couple of weeks ago I was travelling from Durham to York with LNER. At Durham, there was an announcement that the next TPE was cancelled and that passengers should get the next TPE train. (This didn't affect me, but seemed inflexible advice, when part of the route is shared.)

In this scenario, where part of the route is shared, it would be great if train companies would cooperate.

Speaking to the guard on the train is not helpful, because once you board a train you risk getting a penalty fair, as the frequent announcements at stations will tell you.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Speaking to the guard on the train is not helpful, because once you board a train you risk getting a penalty fair, as the frequent announcements at stations will tell you.

I did mean speaking to them on the platform before boarding. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Worst that can happen then is that they say no.

 

[BenS]

I did mean speaking to them on the platform before boarding. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Worst that can happen then is that they say no.

I would be wary of doing this personally. Experience suggests to me that there is not good always good communication between staff in the event of cancellations.
For example I have been to the station and seen display boards suggesting an alternative train to get to replace a cancelled train, and then have staff at a ticket barrier give contradictory advice.

 

[Topological]

My understanding is that you need to be 61 minutes late at the destination for an advance ticket with an operator restriction to become valid on a different operator. Happens a lot with TfW canceling the 05:36 to Manchester (05:32 on the new timetable) from Swansea to Cardiff and then the next TfW being 06:38. Taking the 05:28 GWR and changing onto the 05:36 at Cardiff is certainly not allowed on the ticket terms even though it results in being on the booked train eventually. That's just an example though.

Worth also saying that not all rail staff understand this rule either. I have had it at Piccadilly where the cancellation of a TfW means taking the train an hour later, but the train an hour later does not have the connection to Swansea and leaves the delay well over an hour. In that case barrier staff do not like to let you board the CrossCountry. Thankfully the manual check people do let you through and theres a bridge to get to the right platform. Not much use if you cannot use the stairs though.

In the case of Manchester to Liverpool, the ticket machines are usually pretty clear about which ticket is which. I also find booking online is clear enough because when you select the cheaper options the return choices are far more limited. I also see why Northern are cheaper. If I am not in a rush the Northern fare is good value. The contrast between TPE only and tickets for EMR on the Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool are less obvious, but may also be a hangover from the brief* period when TPE did not offer Oxford Road to Liverpool..

 

[Watershed]

It usually IS possible to save money with advances. I'm not sure of the legal technicalities as I'm out of practice, but generally if a train you had an advance for is cancelled, you're able to get the next available train regardless of operator. Even if no acceptance has been formally agreed on a particular day, having a word with the guard on the train you want to board may get results.

However I'm not railway staff nor a legal professional, and this should not be taken as legal advice.

Sadly ticket acceptance is not guaranteed to be in place with other operators, even if the delay by waiting for the next train operated by the same company is hours! In my view this should be automatic, as is the case in more sensible countries such as Germany and Switzerland for example.

If the anticipated delay is 61+ minutes, passengers have the right to require operators to arrange ticket acceptance so they can reach their destination as quickly as possible. But again operators rarely comply with this obligation unless they've already arranged ticket acceptance by their own initiative.

My understanding is that you need to be 61 minutes late at the destination for an advance ticket with an operator restriction to become valid on a different operator. Happens a lot with TfW canceling the 05:36 to Manchester (05:32 on the new timetable) from Swansea to Cardiff and then the next TfW being 06:38. Taking the 05:28 GWR and changing onto the 05:36 at Cardiff is certainly not allowed on the ticket terms even though it results in being on the booked train eventually. That's just an example though.

Worth also saying that not all rail staff understand this rule either. I have had it at Piccadilly where the cancellation of a TfW means taking the train an hour later, but the train an hour later does not have the connection to Swansea and leaves the delay well over an hour. In that case barrier staff do not like to let you board the CrossCountry. Thankfully the manual check people do let you through and theres a bridge to get to the right platform. Not much use if you cannot use the stairs though.

In the case of Manchester to Liverpool, the ticket machines are usually pretty clear about which ticket is which. I also find booking online is clear enough because when you select the cheaper options the return choices are far more limited. I also see why Northern are cheaper. If I am not in a rush the Northern fare is good value. The contrast between TPE only and tickets for EMR on the Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool are less obvious, but may also be a hangover from the brief* period when TPE did not offer Oxford Road to Liverpool..

You're essentially correct, just worth noting that unless you would otherwise be stranded, you can't just jump on another operator's train when on a TOC restricted ticket (such as most Advances and some walk-up tickets).

You need to request ticket acceptance from the operator at fault and of course in many cases this is wrongly refused. This leaves you with the invidious choice of accepting the delay, risking being charged with a new Anytime single (or even issued with a Penalty Fare or MG11) on the alternative train, or paying up for a new ticket upfront and trying to claim back this from the operator at fault.

 

[fandroid]

If the anticipated delay is 61+ minutes, passengers have the right to require operators to arrange ticket acceptance

You need to request ticket acceptance from the operator at fault and of course in many cases this is wrongly refused. This leaves you with the invidious choice of accepting the delay, risking being charged with a new Anytime single (or even issued with a Penalty Fare or MG11) on the alternative train, or paying up for a new ticket upfront and trying to claim back this from the operator at fault.

You can request permission to use another service, but it's always best to do that with the guard of the train you now want to catch, and to do it before boarding.