Transport for Wales Class 230

[Sam 76]

Well said. Let’s make sure we can maintain the basic service frequency on the principal route first, before pinching its trains to service a far quieter line. I’d say that even if the 197s were being used to make sure the Borderlands could run its basic hourly service, but EVEN MORE so when it’s being done to give it double service frequency!

Priorities need to be considered here.

Can’t help but feel battery 777s when they’ve settled and adding it to the MerseyRail network would solve many problems at once

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Well said. Let’s make sure we can maintain the basic service frequency on the principal route first, before pinching its trains to service a far quieter line. I’d say that even if the 197s were being used to make sure the Borderlands could run its basic hourly service, but EVEN MORE so when it’s being done to give it double service frequency!

Priorities need to be considered here.

TFW have done this before and have destroyed the customer base in a short sighted move. You need to look at the practicality of running buses as an alternatives and when it can take upto 3hrs to run a hour long service due to geography that should be taken into account. People on so called lesser routes nèed to commute to work and school. As pointed out in earlier threads some stations on the line had similar number of passengers as places on the south wales metro routes that have double the number of trains, so the line is not that quiet. If borderlands had ticket machines numbers would be much higher as travellers without tickets is reduced.With a more frequent service you woild also see less passengers driving to Merseyrail stations so user numbers woild be even higher again. We have had a dissaster of a service for 9 months so why should borderlands customers benefit from some new trains

 

[Kite159]

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TFW have done this before and have destroyed the customer base in a short sighted move. You need to look at the practicality of running buses as an alternatives and when it can take upto 3hrs to run a hour long service due to geography that should be taken into account. People on so called lesser routes nèed to commute to work and school. As pointed out in earlier threads some stations on the line had similar number of passengers as places on the south wales metro routes that have double the number of trains, so the line is not that quiet. If borderlands had ticket machines numbers would be much higher as travellers without tickets is reduced.With a more frequent service you woild also see less passengers driving to Merseyrail stations so user numbers woild be even higher again. We have had a dissaster of a service for 9 months so why should borderlands customers benefit from some new trains

Although I suspect even with a more reliable service, some passengers will still drive to stations on the Chester - Liverpool line, mainly due to car parking. Pretty sure there isn't anything at Upton and from memory Heswell station is quite far out of centre of Heswell and it didn't have much in the way of parking either.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

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Although I suspect even with a more reliable service, some passengers will still drive to stations on the Chester - Liverpool line, mainly due to car parking. Pretty sure there isn't anything at Upton and from memory Heswell station is quite far out of centre of Heswell and it didn't have much in the way of parking either.

With investment in the line, e.g. a giant car park could be built at Heswall on adjacent farmland, likewise a new station at Woodchurch as a park and ride on the M53, a new station serving the massive Beechwood estate is another aspiration for Merseytravel. Such investment. would massively change travel patterns in Wirral. Combined with Deeside industrial park sratiob you could essily have a15min interval service on the Liverpool City Region end of the line up to Shotton. Realistically that needs battery 777s,. This would result in the sort of growth seen on the chester line when through running at Rock Ferry occurred with 3rd rail electrification

Back to the 230s that struggle to keep time, they are definately not the intermediate solution for the line given the time they have tried to get them to work on the line.. Having travelled on an on time 197 which was still to timetable at 5:06pm . It was a much smoother ride without the bounce of a 230. In comparison it was like a sedate swan putting little effort into transporting people, it actually felt slower than both the 230s and the 150s. The only detraction was the amount of PA announcements first in Welsh then in English. They could benefit from a goid edit to shorten, so it does not say Welcome to Upton as the train leaves the station, probably due to the welsh announcement taking up a lot of time between stations that are not that far apart. Both language versions need shortening.

 

[Kite159]

With investment in the line, e.g. a giant car park could be built at Heswall on adjacent farmland, likewise a new station at Woodchurch as a park and ride on the M53, a new station serving the massive Beechwood estate is another aspiration for Merseytravel. Such investment. would massively change travel patterns in Wirral. Combined with Deeside industrial park sratiob you could essily have a15min interval service on the Liverpool City Region end of the line up to Shotton. Realistically that needs battery 777s,. This would result in the sort of growth seen on the chester line when through running at Rock Ferry occurred with 3rd rail electrification

Back to the 230s that struggle to keep time, they are definately not the intermediate solution for the line given the time they have tried to get them to work on the line.. Having travelled on an on time 197 which was still to timetable at 5:06pm . It was a much smoother ride without the bounce of a 230. In comparison it was like a sedate swan putting little effort into transporting people, it actually felt slower than both the 230s and the 150s. The only detraction was the amount of PA announcements first in Welsh then in English. They could benefit from a goid edit to shorten, so it does not say Welcome to Upton as the train leaves the station, probably due to the welsh announcement taking up a lot of time between stations that are not that far apart. Both language versions need shortening.

Agreed there with the announcements being overly long on the 197s, an issue with most stations where the announcements don't finish playing before the train pulls away (if it's quiet)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Agreed there with the announcements being overly long on the 197s, an issue with most stations where the announcements don't finish playing before the train pulls away (if it's quiet)

It's because the Welsh Government now have mandated announcements being in Welsh also.

 

[Dan G]

Can’t help but feel battery 777s when they’ve settled and adding it to the MerseyRail network would solve many problems at once

Isn't the range of a 777/1 too short? 55 km versus 86 km out-and-back to Wrexham from Bidston? And no time available for charging, if facilities were installed, in the timetable.

 

[Bob Price]

Isn't the range of a 777/1 too short? 55 km versus 86 km out-and-back to Wrexham from Bidston? And no time available for charging, if facilities were installed, in the timetable.

This is why the 230's were procured. A short term stop gap until fast charging has been tested, approved and shown to work in a 777. I have heard, possibly from this board, that TfW would lease or buy similar units with a view to running on to Liverpool, charging on the third rail and fast charging at Wrexham on the way back. A 777 in TfW livery would be interesting.

 

[Northerngirl]

Would a couple more 231/756s not be the most sensible, now they've finally realised that passengers far prefer on time trains than an under 60 minute journey. I can't see how many improvements can be made to timing without spending so much money refurbishing the 230s that it would be the price of a new train

 

[childwallblues]

It's because the Welsh Government now have mandated announcements being in Welsh also.

It is ridiculous that so much of TFW services are in England and we have to listen to a language that we cannot understand. Is it only on the 197s that this happens?

 

[Peter Sarf]

It is ridiculous that so much of TFW services are in England and we have to listen to a language that we cannot understand. Is it only on the 197s that this happens?

I get the same complaints from many Welsh in Wales !.

It is hard work on most trains not just TfW. All these announcements. Even in London they are an interruption that is often incorrect.

 

[Caaardiff]

It is ridiculous that so much of TFW services are in England and we have to listen to a language that we cannot understand. Is it only on the 197s that this happens?

With the exception of Chester - Liverpool & Crewe and Crewe - Shrewsbury local. All TFW services start or end in Wales

 

[childwallblues]

With the exception of Chester - Liverpool & Crewe and Crewe - Shrewsbury local. All TFW services start or end in Wales

That was not my question.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

It is ridiculous that so much of TFW services are in England and we have to listen to a language that we cannot understand. Is it only on the 197s that this happens?

To my knowledge none of the other fleet have ever done any welsh announcements. The 230s don’t even do Welsh because there isn’t time between stations, it will even cut over itself announcing the next station because the short distances. The 197 announcements are far too much, another of their many problems.

 

[emoaconr]

It is ridiculous that so much of TFW services are in England and we have to listen to a language that we cannot understand. Is it only on the 197s that this happens?

Here we go, another thread I'm sure likely to become subsumed into bashing anything to do with Cymraeg, yet again

 

[meld3]

As someone who lived in Flint, pretty sure signs saying Fflint are a waste of money.....

 

[Mag_seven]

OK can we ditch the discussion of Welsh Language Announcements please.

thanks

 

[Bertie the bus]

With investment in the line, e.g. a giant car park could be built at Heswall on adjacent farmland, likewise a new station at Woodchurch as a park and ride on the M53, a new station serving the massive Beechwood estate is another aspiration for Merseytravel. Such investment. would massively change travel patterns in Wirral. Combined with Deeside industrial park sratiob you could essily have a15min interval service on the Liverpool City Region end of the line up to Shotton. Realistically that needs battery 777s,. This would result in the sort of growth seen on the chester line when through running at Rock Ferry occurred with 3rd rail electrification

I was in Heswall today and the current 15 space car park had 6 cars in it. The last time I was there I think it had 7 or 8, so I would suggest talk of tarmacing over the countryside to create a giant car park is a little premature.

 

[8H]

I just cannot understand why anyone objects to bilingual announcements and notices. Common in Belgium and Switzerland for example. Having been on an excellent 197 on the route I found the info fine. The timetable has had a decent week so far too. This is a Welsh English route with genuine potential and a decent future and cooperative authorities and supporters in both nations. It has had a grim recent past and a set in aspic timetable for decades prior to that. Things are now looking up slowly, well done to all those involved in Wales and in England in making changes.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I just cannot understand why anyone objects to bilingual announcements and notices. Common in Belgium and Switzerland for example. Having been on an excellent 197 on the route I found the info fine. The timetable has had a decent week so far too. This is a Welsh English route with genuine potential and a decent future and cooperative authorities and supporters in both nations. It has had a grim recent past and a set in aspic timetable for decades prior to that. Things are now looking up slowly, well done to all those involved in Wales and in England in making changes.

I agree.
I joined BR from school at age 16 in 1978. at that time the route was known as the GC to us and was specifically allocated twin power car DMUs due to it's gradients. Stock was Chester allocated class 108s built around 1960, so knocking on 20 years old, and not replaced for nearly another ten years.

Regarding the language, I was born in England and our family moved to rural Wales when I was 9. I was the only one of 84 kids who didn't speak Welsh, and most of the lessons were spoken in Welsh, so I had to learn it PDQ. Languages have really not been an issue to me, and like a previous poster suggested, Switzerland are quadrilingual in some parts.

 

[Djgr]

I was in Heswall today and the current 15 space car park had 6 cars in it. The last time I was there I think it had 7 or 8, so I would suggest talk of tarmacing over the countryside to create a giant car park is a little premature.

The much larger car park at Heswall was flogged off by Railtrack for housing (same as at Helsby). The chances of building car parking in the Heswall greenbelt are nil.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2023 ==

I agree.
I joined BR from school at age 16 in 1978. at that time the route was known as the GC to us and was specifically allocated twin power car DMUs due to it's gradients. Stock was Chester allocated class 108s built around 1960, so knocking on 20 years old, and not replaced for nearly another ten years.

Regarding the language, I was born in England and our family moved to rural Wales when I was 9. I was the only one of 84 kids who didn't speak Welsh, and most of the lessons were spoken in Welsh, so I had to learn it PDQ. Languages have really not been an issue to me, and like a previous poster suggested, Switzerland are quadrilingual in some parts.

I grew up on the Wirral and had school mates who spoke Welsh at home.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Heswall station car park used to be full most days before TFW's 9 month experiment in not running trains and then implemeting the 230s. Its a shame 230s are not up to the job on the with on-going delays. To have 5 trains to run one diagram is such a waste. As for the greenbelt, appeals about building housing on it locally are ongoing and Wirral Council had building on parts of the grenbelt as options in the local plan planning

 

[43096]

I just cannot understand why anyone objects to bilingual announcements and notices. Common in Belgium and Switzerland for example.

The issue is not the languages, but the way it is used. In Switzerland, for example, they are varied in different parts of the country, so German is first in German speaking areas, French first in French speaking areas etc. Which is very sensible.

TfW have Welsh first regardless, when it should be majority language first to benefit the maximum number of people. It’s an information service, not a language promotion service that smacks of political correctness.

 

[Djgr]

Heswall station car park used to be full most days before TFW's 9 month experiment in not running trains and then implemeting the 230s. Its a shame 230s are not up to the job on the with on-going delays. To have 5 trains to run one diagram is such a waste. As for the greenbelt, appeals about building housing on it locally are ongoing and Wirral Council had building on parts of the grenbelt as options in the local plan planning

I think this take on the greenbelt is misleading. The appeal that you are talking about is a "last chance saloon" developer one to overturn government rejection of building following council rejection. The options you talk about were rejected ones.

 

[Northerngirl]

The issue is not the languages, but the way it is used. In Switzerland, for example, they are varied in different parts of the country, so German is first in German speaking areas, French first in French speaking areas etc. Which is very sensible.

TfW have Welsh first regardless, when it should be majority language first to benefit the maximum number of people. It’s an information service, not a language promotion service that smacks of political correctness.

Can't agree more, but the 197s are definitely a part of the issue, just saying "the next station is ..." would work fine, but we have to be told where the toilets are, what the time is & what sides the doors open, it's so much information that even just in welsh is hard to fit in between stations

 

[meld3]

Back on Topic - will 006 ever carry a passenger or is it simply spare parts for the fleet ?

 

[RacsoMoquette]

After nearly a month of the new timetable has the 1x197 and 1x230 been a success? Has this led to a reliability increase in the 230s? Is the prospect of 2x230s and 1x195 in the near future or is it distant?

 

[Purple Train]

After nearly a month of the new timetable has the 1x197 and 1x230 been a success? Has this led to a reliability increase in the 230s? Is the prospect of 2x230s and 1x195 in the near future or is it distant?

From RTT, post Christmas, the 197 has kept to time very reliably indeed, with the 230 still picking up a delay during the day - ranging from 7-10 minutes late to 45. The sole major delay to a 197 seems to have been caused by the preceding 230.

I'm sure someone has much better information pre-Christmas, but that's what I've gleaned from a skim of RTT.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Thankyou for that valuable information. I do find the 230s splendid trains and a testament to Adrian Shooters determination.

 

[Steve B]

Since the time table change, and the introduction of the 197s time keeping seems to have been much improved, with most trains being within 5mins of their time at Bidston, sometimes arriving earlier by a minute or two. The timetable allows more time for the journey, and longer dwell times at most stations (1 minute instead of 30 secs) and both the 197s and 230s seem to cope well, and being able to make up time when necessary.
There have been a few trains that have lost time "due to a problem with the traction equipment" - this has applied to both types of train, but seems to be the exception rather than the rule. There have been a couple of days with disruption due to slippery rails, and other, occasional, delays due to the trains being late from the depot - this has affected 197s coming from Chester, and also seems to be a regular occurance at the 230 swap over at Bidston at lunchtimes - why that should be I don't know, but there have been problems mentioned on here in the past relating to getting a path on Merseyrail if operations have drifted from the timetable. How necessary the 230 swaps are now I don't know. There have also been delays due to train crew not being available and at the right place when they're needed, also signal failures, flooding and a fallen tree.
All in all, to me it looks a vast improvement - more trains and mostly running pretty much on time.