Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[birchesgreen]

I fear that the most rabid anti-migrant doom-mongers will just see that as a good start...

Yeah they'll consider it a feature not a bug.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That's a sad development, when I last saw the news nothing other than that had been released (ie cause).

Back to Rwanda and I'm absolutely laughing my head off hearing that while we would be limited to sending 200 there, they (a) could send back anyone the wanted (b) send us their own including, I believe, serious criminals and (c) we pay for it all.

How can any voter, any Tory, put up with THAT even if it's only partially true??

It is true but the Tories are too invested in it now and to give up will just undermine them further.

 

[nw1]

While the focus of protest/complaint around the Rwanda bill is that it is disgusting ( and it is - it is simply a "send the burgers back" plan that the 70's /80's NF would have been proud off) the real concern for me is that this bill is a massive attack on the rule of law, judicial independence and the separation of powers. It is outrageous.

it is worrying. Today it is laws protecting dirty immigrants that the government don't like and don't think should apply to them but tomorrow it might be laws dealing with decent chaps like you and me. The Human Rights Act is not to blame for this mess.

What's concerning is that the so called "One Nation Group" of Tories seem to want to support it.

What a bunch of unprincipled sheep. One Nation indeed... certainly not a nation I want to be part of. The lot of them may as well be replaced by computers running simple programs which, when presented with a decision, obey the leadership's directions without question. Would be far less of a drain on that source of income the right love to harp on about.... taxpayers' money.

Maybe someone should create a prototype "Tory MP emulator". Would probably require just a few lines of code!

Are there really no Tories who are opposed to this Rwanda nonsense from a humanitarian POV? Or a legally-questionable POV? If not, it says very, very bad things about the Tory party as a whole, and why they must lose next year else God help the UK. The normalisation of right-wing attitudes across the board is deeply concerning.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What's concerning is that the so called "One Nation Group" of Tories seem to want to support it.

What a bunch of unprincipled sheep. One Nation indeed... certainly not a nation I want to be part of. The lot of them may as well be replaced by computers running simple programs which, when presented with a decision, obey the leadership's directions without question. Would be far less of a drain on that source of income the right love to harp on about.... taxpayers' money.

Maybe someone should create a prototype "Tory MP emulator". Would probably require just a few lines of code.

Are there really no Tories who are opposed to this Rwanda nonsense from a humanitarian POV? Or a legally-questionable POV? If not, it says very, very bad things about the Tory party as a whole, and why they must lose next year else God help the UK. The normalisation of right-wing attitudes across the board is deeply concerning.

Seeing as good chunk of them will be out on the ear within 12mths they are playing nicely so the gravy train keeps going.

 

[nw1]

The scary thing is that although the Tories are likely to lose next year, the next time they get back into power, be that in 5, 10 or 15 years, Britain will probably withdraw from the ECHR as was the case with Brexit as the idea will slowly become normalised even with so called 'moderates'.

I am hoping that this current fashion for right-wing populism will fade. The Tories seem to be into it but I get the impression the population as a whole has been growing fed up of it post-Covid as it does not appear to be solving any of our problems. The Tories losing in places like Tamworth, Selby and mid-Beds is testament to that; I realise those were by-elections but even still, they were never even marginal.

Other countries such as the Netherlands and Argentina are seeing a "peak" in right-wing populism right now but perhaps we were ahead of the wave, so we'll recover sooner.

 

[najaB]

What's concerning is that the so called "One Nation Group" of Tories seem to want to support it.

I saw commentary that indicated that they're supporting it now (to avoid the Government collapsing) but will insist that it's watered down significantly during the committee phases, and will vote against it at the third reading if they don't get what they want.

 

[jfollows]

I saw commentary that indicated that they're supporting it now (to avoid the Government collapsing) but will insist that it's watered down significantly during the committee phases, and will vote against it at the third reading if they don't get what they want.

At the same time, the right-wing cabals will probably support it today (some may abstain) but will insist that it's beefed up significantly during the committee phases, and will vote against it at the third reading if they don't get what they want!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

At the same time, the right-wing cabals will probably support it today (some may abstain) but will insist that it's beefed up significantly during the committee phases, and will vote against it at the third reading if they don't get what they want!

So in other words, unless something in the political environment drastically changes, the legislation will not get through the third reading, even if it is passed today.

 

[jfollows]

So in other words, unless something in the political environment drastically changes, the legislation will not get through the third reading, even if it is passed today.

I think that’s right. Today solves nothing, other than that a defeat would be a disaster for Sunak.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Sunak only has a majority of 56 now so 29 rebels voting no or 58 abstentions and the bill is toast - and so is his reputation, what credible shreds are left of it…

 

[jfollows]

Sunak only has a majority of 56 now so 29 rebels voting no or 58 abstentions and the bill is toast - and so is his reputation, what credible shreds are left of it…

I agree, and the reports are now that "numbers" of the right-wingers will vote against, so it could still be defeated. Certainly the government whips have been in full panic mode all day. Have the DUP been bought off as usual to save the day?

 

[brad465]

I agree, and the reports are now that "numbers" of the right-wingers will vote against, so it could still be defeated. Certainly the government whips have been in full panic mode all day. Have the DUP been bought off as usual to save the day?

The DUP have said they're not supporting it, but not yet known if they'll abstain or vote against.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

I agree, and the reports are now that "numbers" of the right-wingers will vote against, so it could still be defeated. Certainly the government whips have been in full panic mode all day. Have the DUP been bought off as usual to save the day?

As a former party member who’s been long disillusioned with the current sh*t-show in charge, this could be very delicious….

 

[jfollows]

Aye: 313 (out of 350 Conservative MPs?)
No: 269
582 votes either way

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Third reading with all the amendments chucked in will be interesting…

 

[jfollows]

So-called “emergency legislation” isn’t being rushed through to give time to coerce recalcitrant MPs to vote for it in due course.

 

[Purple Train]

Aye: 313 (out of 350 Conservative MPs?)
No: 269
582 votes either way

Somewhat less close than had been insinuated, but nevertheless far from a glorious triumph. I presume, from the numbers, that there weren't any Conservatives who voted against the bill?

Not that it really means anything - has anyone outside Cabinet proclaimed themselves satisfied with the bill as it is? And pleasing one group looks increasingly more like alienating all the other factions.

 

[jfollows]

MPs back Rwanda bill in boost to Rishi Sunak despite rebellion by rightwing MPs – as it happened

Rishi Sunak’s Rwanda bill passes its first Commons vote but only after rebellion by a collection of rightwing Tory MPs

www.theguardian.com

The division list for the second reading division is now on the Commons website.

It shows that 38 Conservative MPs did not vote. There were 16 Tories who did not vote in the first division and most of those were probably MPs who had a legitmate reason not to be in the chamber (like Alok Sharma, the former Cop president, who is at Cop), rather than MPs who were actively abstaining (like Robert Jenrick).

That suggests the number of intentional abstentions was probably in the 20s.

No Conservative MP voted against the bill, the division list showed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2023 ==

Suella Braverman, Robert Jenrick, Bill Cash, John Redwood, Mark Francois all didn’t vote.
DUP voted against.

 

[brad465]

The thing I learnt most from that list is that for some reason there are 4 Deputy Speakers?

 

[nw1]

Shame on Sunak and shame on the majority of the parliamentary Conservative Party.

I just hope that this won't cause the British public to see Sunak as strong and vote him in next year.

 

[Gloster]

The thing I learnt most from that list is that for some reason there are 4 Deputy Speakers?

I believe that Eleanor Laing, the Chairman of Ways & Means, had to take leave of absence due to illness: Roger Gale was sworn in as a Deputy Speaker until she returns. What is confusing is that he is still a speaker, but she has been chairing seesions at times, so it is possible that she is only carrying out part of her normal duties.

 

[jfollows]

I believe that Eleanor Laing, the Chairman of Ways & Means, had to take leave of absence due to illness: Roger Gale was sworn in as a Deputy Speaker until she returns. What is confusing is that he is still a speaker, but she has been chairing seesions at times, so it is possible that she is only carrying out part of her normal duties.

There are normally 3 deputy speakers, chosen along with the speaker to be 2xCon and 2xLab MPs to even things out. So having 4 is unusual as noted above.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2023 ==

A full list of Conservative MPs who probably abstained at https://www.theguardian.com/politic...armer-labour-david-cameron-uk-politics-latest

How at least 25 Conservative MPs abstained on Rwanda bill as act of rebellion​

At least 25 Tory MPs definitely abstained on the Rwanda bill as an act of rebellion.

Here is the list of 24 Tory MPs who did not vote on the second reading, but who did vote against the Labour amendment. That means it is fair to say the all deliberately abtained.

Sir Jake Berry

Suella Braverman

Sir Bill Cash

Miriam Cates

Sir Simon Clarke

Sarah Dines

Richard Drax

Sir James Duddridge

Natalie Elphicke

Mark Francois

Chris Green

Jonathan Gullis

Sir John Hayes

Adam Holloway

Tom Hunt

Caroline Johnson

David Jones

Danny Kruger

Marco Longhi

Craig Mackinlay

Robin Millar

Jill Mortimer

John Redwood

Sir Robert Syms

And here is the 14 list of Tory MPs who did not vote in either division. It is understood that eight of them were paired, and others may have been absent for another reason. Of the other six, some, such as Robert Jenrick, were definitey abstaining to make a point, but others may have had another reason for not voting.

Rehman Chishti

Theo Clarke

Tobias Ellwood

Jo Gideon

Dame Andrea Jenkyns

Robert Jenrick

Julia Marson

Stephen McPartland

Caroline Nokes

Jesse Norman

Dan Poulter

Andrew Rosindell

Alok Sharma

Chris Skidmore

 

[nw1]

There are normally 3 deputy speakers, chosen along with the speaker to be 2xCon and 2xLab MPs to even things out. So having 4 is unusual as noted above.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2023 ==

A full list of Conservative MPs who probably abstained at https://www.theguardian.com/politic...armer-labour-david-cameron-uk-politics-latest

Perhaps Ellwood and Nokes did it for conscience reasons. Perhaps Skidmore also. They have struck me as amongst the small number of relatively reasonable Tories remaining.

Jenkyns and Rosindell are by contrast definitely from the right-wing of the party, so they probably had other reasons.

 

[najaB]

So in other words, unless something in the political environment drastically changes, the legislation will not get through the third reading, even if it is passed today.

Yup. The sound you hear is the can rattling down the road.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Somewhat less close than had been insinuated, but nevertheless far from a glorious triumph. I presume, from the numbers, that there weren't any Conservatives who voted against the bill?

No but the rebels didn't have the bottle to push the self destruct button and as a result they've lost the whip hand so this bill will get through now in my view with a few govt concessions. That all Sunak wants something he wave around like Chamberlain did 80yrs ago whether it was going to be any good is irrelevant its how he's perceived that matters.

 

[Busaholic]

Perhaps Ellwood and Nokes did it for conscience reasons. Perhaps Skidmore also. They have struck me as amongst the small number of relatively reasonable Tories remaining.

Jenkyns and Rosindell are by contrast definitely from the right-wing of the party, so they probably had other reasons.

I think you'll find Rosindell has been 'asked' to stay away from the Parliamentary estate since some time ago while 'investigations' are made, exceedingly slowly, into allegations against him. He has not voted for months now.

 

[DunsBus]

After tonight, I suspect that a Labour win at the next general election is now by no means a certainty. I can see a repeat of 1992 where Labour led in the polls only to lose on the day itself.

 

[jfollows]

I believe that Eleanor Laing, the Chairman of Ways & Means, had to take leave of absence due to illness: Roger Gale was sworn in as a Deputy Speaker until she returns. What is confusing is that he is still a speaker, but she has been chairing seesions at times, so it is possible that she is only carrying out part of her normal duties.

Eleanor Laing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Laing took a leave of absence from December 2022 after undergoing surgery, and returned to the chair during the week of 6 March 2023.[1] Her leave of absence has been extended until 31 March 2024, but Laing has continued in her duties in the Chair.[2] Roger Gale has served as deputy speaker while she has been absent.

 

[ainsworth74]

After tonight, I suspect that a Labour win at the next general election is now by no means a certainty. I can see a repeat of 1992 where Labour led in the polls only to lose on the day itself.

How so?

 

[Richard Scott]

How so?

Thought that one was well known. Reputed to be The Sun's headline that said "If Labour win this election will the last person to leave the country please turn off the lights?"
Also Spitting Image had a sketch with Kinnock and Hattersley say "Winning thus election should be as easy as falling off if a log" then showing them spinning round and around the log.
We're a number of marginal seats that Conservatives won to give them a small majority.