Portsmouth Harbour-Cardiff Central GWR

[Towers]

It's been said before that 175s would be unsuitable for the route as some services start the day after being stabled at a station not a depot, and 175s were viewed as being not too reliable in that situation. My inexpert RTT poking suggests the first services from Portsmouth to Cardiff and vice versa both come from depots. Which start after being stabled outside a depot?

Fratton is essentially an outstabling point with a fueling facility, there is no on-site maintenance capability and so it isn’t ideal for any particularly “needy” fleet.

 

[vicbury]

Would never be practical realistically

I think there would be a riot if GWR tried to segment off a section on any of their rammed three car services!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think there would be a riot if GWR tried to segment off a section on any of their rammed three car services!

They used to selfishly gatekeep the areas for off duty staff, even into early 2022, which is disgusting and absolutely out of order. I wrote in a furious letter and an internal memo was apparently then passed to declare that this practice was no longer allowed.

 

[Towers]

They used to selfishly gatekeep the areas for off duty staff, even into early 2022, which is disgusting and absolutely out of order. I wrote in a furious letter and an internal memo was apparently then passed to declare that this practice was no longer allowed.

With respect, how would it have been apparent that passengers were off duty staff?

 

[Snow1964]

It's been said before that 175s would be unsuitable for the route as some services start the day after being stabled at a station not a depot, and 175s were viewed as being not too reliable in that situation. My inexpert RTT poking suggests the first services from Portsmouth to Cardiff and vice versa both come from depots. Which start after being stabled outside a depot?

Pretty sure at Fratton, they are just parked in outside sidings, not within a depot building, so not much difference to being in a platform. Fratton is really an EMU servicing depot with a diesel fueling point, not a DMU maintenance location.

I haven't been to the area for a while but from memory there used to be various stabling lines most of the way between Fratton and Portsmouth & Southsea, and part of Fratton depot covers the old East Southsea branch.

 

[Western Sunset]

With respect, how would it have been apparent that passengers were off duty staff?

I think it's pretty obvious if staff have just come off duty or travelling to their duty - for GW staff dark green uniform and bright orange backpack with GW on it...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

With respect, how would it have been apparent that passengers were off duty staff?

GWR uniform and a big sign saying GWR staff only…

 

[Towers]

GWR uniform and a big sign saying GWR staff only…

So staff using an area set aside for staff, then! Assuming we’re talking ‘official’ signage and not a scribbled bit of A4 paper?!

The area would have been chosen owing to the proximity to the cab, allowing the guard to move between the cab and the door controls at the adjacent set of external saloon doors, it being a declassified ‘posh end’ won’t have made a difference there. Is this “selfish” because it involves big seats, or for some other reason?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So staff using an area set aside for staff, then! Assuming we’re talking ‘official’ signage and not a scribbled bit of A4 paper?!

The area would have been chosen owing to the proximity to the cab, allowing the guard to move between the cab and the door controls at the adjacent set of external saloon doors, it being a declassified ‘posh end’ won’t have made a difference there. Is this “selfish” because it involves big seats, or for some other reason?

It shouldn’t have been an area set aside for staff in the first place, and why assume? No, we’re talking a bit of tape and one of them had scribbled paper signage, no official notices. And it was both ends.

 

[AdamWW]

The area would have been chosen owing to the proximity to the cab, allowing the guard to move between the cab and the door controls at the adjacent set of external saloon doors, it being a declassified ‘posh end’ won’t have made a difference there. Is this “selfish” because it involves big seats, or for some other reason?

I do not think that this is a correct explanation.

For a start 2022 is a bit late for segregating staff from passengers for COVID purposes, and in any case even back in 2020 guards on this route were coming through the train checking tickets.

I'm pretty sure the guards normally do the doors from the rear cab on these trains - they certainly haven't popped back and forth through this area at each stop to do the doors from the vestibule when I've been sitting in this area.

And I suppose it depends on who you think the railways should be run for, but as a passenger the idea of closing off the tiny proportion of the train with decent seating and tables to work at doesn't appeal to me.

 

[3RDGEN]

It's been said before that 175s would be unsuitable for the route as some services start the day after being stabled at a station not a depot, and 175s were viewed as being not too reliable in that situation. My inexpert RTT poking suggests the first services from Portsmouth to Cardiff and vice versa both come from depots. Which start after being stabled outside a depot?

Numerous 175's stabled at Carmarthen overnight for years with no mtce facilities and it worked fine so it's not a real problem. 175's were only maintained at Chester with Holyhead and Cardiff doing fueling/ basic servicing overnight, a few went to Crewe Arriva Traincare overnight in later years. It's been mentioned before 175 still had a better MTIN than GWR 158's despite this, which they should being 10 years younger.

Training / route clearance for Portsmouth and a "new" mtce site would be a massive cost so its unlikely to happen when TfW 150/158's will be available in the next year or two.

 

[Snow1964]

Training / route clearance for Portsmouth and a "new" mtce site would be a massive cost so its unlikely to happen when TfW 150/158's will be available in the next year or two

Although if you listen to some Welsh officials, would be under impression that they will be aiming to grow rail and keeping some of the 158s in reserve to cater for potential growth.

I don't know if it just generally assumed GWR could get spare DMUs from Wales in year or two, or if it is actually agreed that Wales will definitely release them.

 

[Dan G]

Numerous 175's stabled at Carmarthen overnight for years with no mtce facilities and it worked fine so it's not a real problem. 175's were only maintained at Chester with Holyhead and Cardiff doing fueling/ basic servicing overnight, a few went to Crewe Arriva Traincare overnight in later years. It's been mentioned before 175 still had a better MTIN than GWR 158's despite this, which they should being 10 years younger.

Training / route clearance for Portsmouth and a "new" mtce site would be a massive cost so its unlikely to happen when TfW 150/158's will be available in the next year or two.

True. I would just like to see 175s – could be formed into 5-car formations by pairing 3- and 2-car sets – running on this line. It's what they were designed for (though that is the case for the 158 too).

 

[fgwrich]

True. I would just like to see 175s – could be formed into 5-car formations by pairing 3- and 2-car sets – running on this line. It's what they were designed for (though that is the case for the 158 too).

While that debate is very much more for the speculative thread, so would i. A fleet of 27 or so units, divided into enough semi-permanent coupled sets would I feel provide an upgrade to the route that's been missing for a number of years. Other remaining units can cover routes like Weymouth, and the Turbo's can either be largely sent to Exe or send the worst units to be a float Christmas Tree for both Networker Turbo operators. Like Chester, concentrate the fleet solely on SPM. At least it would provide a capacity increase, and potential reliability increase (when they work they're not bad units) at least until the so called project church wood ever comes to fruition.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

project church wood

Project Churchward!

Your screen name indicates being a Western Region person, so surely you must have heard of George Jackson Churchward!? The attempt of the current project (which is moving on in the background) is to replicate Churchward’s objective of standardisation for the new GWR Regional Fleet.

 

[fgwrich]

Project Churchward!

Your screen name indicates being a Western Region person, so surely you must have heard of George Jackson Churchward!? The attempt of the current project (which is moving on in the background) is to replicate Churchward’s objective of standardisation for the new GWR Regional Fleet.

Autocorrect! Western region or not though, I still find it a silly name - it’s all this faux GWR love in I dislike about the current set up, started a few years back when Ealing Broadway was adorned with a sign proclaiming they were evoking the spirit of Brunel….

But we digress.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Autocorrect! Western region or not though, I still find it a silly name - it’s all this faux GWR love in I dislike about the current set up, started a few years back when Ealing Broadway was adorned with a sign proclaiming they were evoking the spirit of Brunel….

But we digress.

Each to their own, personally I prefer a more ‘traditional’ company identity rather than something generic that sounds like a brand of shampoo (Avanti I’m looking at you!)

 

[Stigy]

They used to selfishly gatekeep the areas for off duty staff, even into early 2022, which is disgusting and absolutely out of order. I wrote in a furious letter and an internal memo was apparently then passed to declare that this practice was no longer allowed.

Only ever known this during Covid, and that was for duty travel, and wholly reasonable in my opinion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2023 ==

Pretty sure at Fratton, they are just parked in outside sidings, not within a depot building, so not much difference to being in a platform. Fratton is really an EMU servicing depot with a diesel fueling point, not a DMU maintenance location.

I haven't been to the area for a while but from memory there used to be various stabling lines most of the way between Fratton and Portsmouth & Southsea, and part of Fratton depot covers the old East Southsea branch.

They are stabled outside, but still within a depot. I assume the issue being that the 175s were at stations rather than within the confines of a restricted depot.

 

[The exile]

Only ever known this during Covid, and that was for duty travel, and wholly reasonable in my opinion.

Depends on the definition of "during COVID" - it survived on some units well into 2022.

 

[Anonymous10]

Only ever known this during Covid, and that was for duty travel, and wholly reasonable in my opinion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2023 ==


They are stabled outside, but still within a depot. I assume the issue being that the 175s were at stations rather than within the confines of a restricted depot.

The 175s worked fine for many years out of Carmarthen and could be stabled at Chester in the station too though.

 

[Snow1964]

Looks like no 5 car trains today, couple of 4car 158s, remainder are 2 or 3 car

I think the average length is below 3car now, which even with shortage of trains, is rather unacceptable.

They are being advertised as Reservations recommended (not that they will bother to give you an allocated seat, which seems farce of a policy from customer point of view. Why advertise reservations recommended if it is just a count in a back office system and doesn't affect if a seat will be available

 

[Mike Machin]

Looks like no 5 car trains today, couple of 4car 158s, remainder are 2 or 3 car

I think the average length is below 3car now, which even with shortage of trains, is rather unacceptable.

They are being advertised as Reservations recommended (not that they will bother to give you an allocated seat, which seems farce of a policy from customer point of view. Why advertise reservations recommended if it is just a count in a back office system and doesn't affect if a seat will be available

It’s just a further escalation I mentioned in a post last week. Because of our knowledge of railway matters, we know what to expect if we were to travel using this dismal service, but many of the longer-distance users of route would have absolutely no idea of the potential horrors that await them.

When they enter their card details and click purchase, in the back of their mind they will be having a mental picture of a comfortable seat on a 21st Century train, maybe enjoying a coffee glancing out of the window as they catch-up on social media or read a book. Perhaps a snooze if was an early start.

The stark reality is so different I really do think that offering to sell tickets, knowing how bad the conditions will potentially be constitutes rouge trading.

If any other kind of business were to fall so far short of customer expectation, trading standards would be involved, with the company facing prosecution and the directors facing a possible custodial sentence.

But because it’s the DfT, they are allowed to get away with it day after day after day.

 

[twpsaesneg]

If any other kind of business were to fall so far short of customer expectation, trading standards would be involved, with the company facing prosecution and the directors facing a possible custodial sentence.

I agree the service is poor, but that's just untrue.
At the very most the Advertising Standards Agency might give someone a rap across the knuckles, directors going to jail for a service not being what people expect is never going to happen, and nor should it. Locking someone up isn't really an appropriate punishment for people not getting a seat on a train when there are people committing violent offences walking away with community orders!
Unfortunately GWR can just point to the terms and conditions attached to a ticket which don't guarantee a seat nor a specific journey time - only that they will get you there. Maybe these T&Cs need changing for modern times.

 

[Snow1964]

Thought I would extract the recent ORR station usage data for the line
Have kept in the small stations served by some peak hour, or early or late trains

Rank (Nationally), Number of Entrances and exits, Station Name
Ticket percentages : Full price tickets, Reduced Price Tickets, Seasons

37, 10,185,022 Cardiff Central 53.3, 37.5, 9.2
40, 9,291,680 Bristol Temple Meads 24.4, 71.1, 4.5
72, 5,495,672 Southampton Central 19.3, 73.9, 6.8
73, 5,468,466 Bath Spa 17.1, 77.9, 4.9
203, 2,339,566 Newport (South Wales) 43.9, 48.3, 7.7
273, 1,775,756 Fratton 24.6, 66.6, 8.8
278, 1,746,574 Portsmouth Harbour 18.0, 72.0, 10.0
281, 1,707,210 Portsmouth and Southsea 18.0, 72.0, 10.0
287, 1,621,562 Salisbury 18.0, 70.7, 11.3
323, 1,415,156 Fareham 26.5, 61.4, 12.1
568, 765,158 Cosham 30.4, 59.0, 10.6
586, 734,768 Trowbridge 40.9, 46.6, 12.5
752, 521,474 Filton Abbey Wood 49.9, 44.9, 5.2
757, 518,996 Westbury 27.5, 64.7, 7.8
842, 426,700 Bradford-On-Avon 42.3, 50.5, 7.2
848, 418,586 Keynsham 40.2, 54.0, 5.7
886, 384,366 Romsey 23.8, 62.4, 13.7
1020, 297,810 Oldfield Park 42.5, 45.3, 12.2
1026, 295,452 Warminster 23.5, 66.0, 10.5
1360, 165,992 Severn Tunnel Junction 81.5, 9.8, 8.7
1751, 77,776 Patchway 56.6, 38.3, 5.0
1990, 44,094 Freshford 42.3, 43.4, 14.3
2179, 23,402 Avoncliff 49.2, 43.5, 7.3
2300, 12,076 Dilton Marsh 51.8, 34.9, 13.2

As can be seen many of the smaller stations in middle of the line are selling over 40% as full price tickets, considering only getting a 32+ year old DMU without First Class, and negligible comfort features eg tables, you do wonder if GWR is pitching the lines requirements to DfT correctly. I realise they are rather told, rather than get to choose, but it seems rough deal when many of the GWR stations elsewhere are seeing much lower percentages of Full Fare tickets but get served by trains with more facilities

None could really be deemed commuter stations (around 1 in 12 journeys on season tickets), so would think they are leisure based, but clearly attracting lots of full price tickets. Anyone got any thoughts on this.

 

[Western Sunset]

There's a lot of new housing around Warminster and Westbury (and doubtless elsewhere along the route). This overcrowding will only get worse.

 

[Benjwri]

when many of the GWR stations elsewhere are seeing much lower percentages of Full Fare tickets but get served by trains with more facilities

I don’t think that we can really draw conclusions from the number of full price tickets. All you can say from that is that more people either don’t travel enough to justify a railcard, or aren’t eligible for one. I don’t think there should be an attitude that railcard users are less entitled to a premium service than those who don’t have a railcard, not to mention railcard users are more often the ones who have to suffer the service every day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2023 ==

On another related note which hasn’t gained attention yet, next year from 24th December 2024 to 24th January 2025 this line will be cut in two, with Westbury station entirely closed for a 30 day blockade, with trains terminating at Bath Spa and Warminster respectively. Effectively cutting the southern part of the line off from places like Bristol, and causing chaos for those who commute using it.

 

[zwk500]

If any other kind of business were to fall so far short of customer expectation, trading standards would be involved, with the company facing prosecution and the directors facing a possible custodial sentence.

This is the equivalent of a restaurant not having enough tables. No restaurant manager in history would ever be charged by trading standards for being 'too busy'.

 

[Snow1964]

There's a lot of new housing around Warminster and Westbury (and doubtless elsewhere along the route). This overcrowding will only get worse.

And Trowbridge and Keynsham and Filton Abbey Wood

Also Bowerhill (South Melksham) which is close but off route, and West Ashton (between Trowbridge and Westbury).

post #294 shows national rank of these stations, and many are averaging well over 1000 passengers per day, so not surprising the 2car and 3car trains are often inadequate

 

[Western Sunset]

On another related note which hasn’t gained attention yet, next year from 24th December 2024 to 24th January 2025 this line will be cut in two, with Westbury station entirely closed for a 30 day blockade, with trains terminating at Bath Spa and Warminster respectively. Effectively cutting the southern part of the line off from places like Bristol, and causing chaos for those who commute using it.

Do you have a link to the works at Westbury next (2024) Christmas, please?

 

[Benjwri]

Do you have a link to the works at Westbury next (2024) Christmas, please?

Not official announced yet, some details are publicly available on the Engineering Access Statement for 2025, put down in two parts on Pages 101 and 102.

30 DAY WESTBURY BLOCKADE PART 1
POSSESSION WILL NOT BE HANDED BACK - WILL
CONTINUE AS P2024/3929981
GWR SERVICES BETWEEN LONDON AND THE
WEST COUNTRY ALL TO RUN VIA WESTBURY
AVOIDERS, CALLING FROME IN LIEU IF
REQUIRED.
GWR SERVICES BETWEEN BRISTOL AND
WEYMOUTH TO REVERSE AT HEYWOOD ROAD
JNC IN BOTH DIRECTIONS (SIGNALLED MOVES)
NOT CALLING WESTBURY.
GWR SERVICES BETWEEN CARDIFF AND
PORTSMOUTH TO TERMINATE AT BATH SPA /
WESTBURY TEMPORARY PLATFORM ON
HAWKERIDGE LOOP (GW720) (*TO BE
CONFIRMED*) REVERSING AT HEYWOOD ROAD
JCN AND TO TERMINATE AT WARMINSTER.
SWR SERVICES TO TERMINATE AT / START FROM
WARMINSTER OR SALISBURY.
ALL FREIGHT SERVICES TO RUN VIA WESTBURY
AVOIDERS OR HAWKERIDGE CURVES. FREIGHT
MOVEMENTS TO / FROM WESSEX AND
SOUTHERN REGIONS DIVERTED VIA DIDCOT.
WORK DETAILS = WESTBURY S+C RENEWALS

I do notice there is also engineering scheduled at Warminster simultaneously, cutting services all the way back to Salisbury (Page 82)

GWR: CARDIFF TO PORTSMOUTH SERVICES
WILL TERMINATE AT BATH SPA AND RESTART
FROM SALISBURY. RAIL REPLACEMENT ROAD
SERVICES TO OPERATE BETWEEN BATH AND
SALISBURY.
SWR: YEOVIL PEN MILL VIA WESTBURY
SERVICES WILL NOT RUN.
FREIGHT MOVEMENTS TO / FROM WESSEX AND
SOUTHERN REGIONS DIVERTED VIA DIDCOT.
CIVILS: SHERRINGTON VIADUCT STEELWORK
REPAIRS