SWR Report for Prosecution (Help Needed)

[rbmuk]

Hello,

I was travelling from New Milton to Branksome on South Western Railway yesterday evening (10th Dec) I was unbelievably late for my train and had no time to buy a ticket before i boarded, Once i got onto the train i sat down and within 2 minutes i was approached by Revenue Protection, i have had mishaps with SWR before and previously successfully appealed a 100£ fine for a very similar way of events.

This time i was given a “Report for Prosecution” which mentions on the paper that i will be contacted and may be prosecuted.

Just came onto here to ask what the usual outcomes of these letters are and if its common to be prosecuted by SWR, I feel very nervous about possibly receiving a criminal record and want to know what the best way to avoid this is?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

SWR will now look at what they know about you.

They will then make a decision on what needs to be done to make sure you always pay the right train fare. In general I would say to someone who had come to their attention before that this would mean that prosecution would be likely, but in your case as the previous penalty was successfully appealed it may be that they will overlook it. I suppose that rather depends on whether your appeal was successful because there was no grounds for the penalty (in which case this is essentially the first time you have come to their attention) or because there was some procedural mistake on the railway's part (in which case, they may decide that you've had a warning about the importance of paying your fare but you seem to have ignored it).

On balance, it seems to me that SWR are rather more likely than usual to move to prosecution. But before they do that they will probably write to you asking for your side of the story. If you look through this section of the forum, you will see that @Hadders frequently gives excellent advice on how to respond: you will want to reply along those lines, but as I think prosecution is more likely than it would normally be, you will have to work particularly hard at explaining why you will not make this mistake again.

Until the railway write to you, there's not much you can do. But I would suggest making a note of everything that happened so you have full details to hand when they do write, rather than just relying on your memory.

 

[rbmuk]

Welcome to the forum!

SWR will now look at what they know about you.

They will then make a decision on what needs to be done to make sure you always pay the right train fare. In general I would say to someone who had come to their attention before that this would mean that prosecution would be likely, but in your case as the previous penalty was successfully appealed it may be that they will overlook it. I suppose that rather depends on whether your appeal was successful because there was no grounds for the penalty (in which case this is essentially the first time you have come to their attention) or because there was some procedural mistake on the railway's part (in which case, they may decide that you've had a warning about the importance of paying your fare but you seem to have ignored it).

On balance, it seems to me that SWR are rather more likely than usual to move to prosecution. But before they do that they will probably write to you asking for your side of the story. If you look through this section of the forum, you will see that @Hadders frequently gives excellent advice on how to respond: you will want to reply along those lines, but as I think prosecution is more likely than it would normally be, you will have to work particularly hard at explaining why you will not make this mistake again.

Until the railway write to you, there's not much you can do. But I would suggest making a note of everything that happened so you have full details to hand when they do write, rather than just relying on your memory.

Thank you!

I see, i won the last appeal due to personal reasons i wouldn't like to mention, i will refer to his guide about replying to these first letters. I have seen also that if you are found guilty in court the offence is under certain rail laws and wont show up on a standard DBS Check. Im stressing due to not wanting this to effect my future over a very minor mistake.

Just curious also on how long it takes to get this first letter on average?

 

[WesternLancer]

Just curious also on how long it takes to get this first letter on average?

Could take 4 or 5 weeks - maybe a bit longer if the Christmas holiday period slows down their processes of writing out to people. When you get it you can head here for advice on how best to reply.

Be aware that you do need to reply quickly to these letters to prevent things just automatically escalating to court - which is best avoided if at all possible (every chance of avoiding court I'd think - so long as you engage with the process by replying to the letter using advice often given on this forum).

 

[rbmuk]

Could take 4 or 5 weeks - maybe a bit longer if the Christmas holiday period slows down their processes of writing out to people. When you get it you can head here for advice on how best to reply.

Be aware that you do need to reply quickly to these letters to prevent things just automatically escalating to court - which is best avoided if at all possible (every chance of avoiding court I'd think - so long as you engage with the process by replying to the letter using advice often given on this forum)

Thank you very much! I have seen also that if you are found guilty in court the offence is under certain rail laws and wont show up on a standard DBS Check, are you aware if this is true?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you very much! I have seen also that if you are found guilty in court the offence is under certain rail laws and wont show up on a standard DBS Check, are you aware if this is true?

I am not an expert on DBS - others often answer questions on that - I think they do show up on DBS checks for a period of time. Hopefully someone will advise. But since you can probably avoid this going to court that would mean nothing to show on DBS anyway.

 

[rbmuk]

I am not an expert on DBS - others often answer questions on that - I think they do show up on DBS checks for a period of time. Hopefully someone will advise. But since you can probably avoid this going to court that would mean nothing to show on DBS anyway.

Perfect thank you for your help, i'm really hoping this doesn't have to go to court despite the previous successful appeal with SWR.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

SWR will write to you asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. I suggest writing a short, concise reply mentioning the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

SWR are usually prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. A settlement tends to cost around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

A difficulty in your case is that you have come to SWR's attention before. How long ago was this? I don't think this makes the offer of a settlement impossible (particularly as your appeal was upheld) but it will probably make it harder.

If the case does proceed to court and you are found guilty (or plead guilty) then the impact on DBS checks depends on which law you are prosecuted under. A conviction under the Railway Bylaws isn't normally entered into the Police National Computer and ordinarily won't show on criminal records checks. If you are convicted under the Regulation of the Railways Act then this would be entered on to the PNC and would show on criminal record checks. On basic checks this is normally a year but on standard and enhanced checks it is longer. We would always advise being honest if you are asked if you have been convicted of a criminal offence, a conviction for a minor railway ticketing matter shouldn't adversely affect job prospects as long as you are honest about it.

 

[rbmuk]

Welcome to the forum!

SWR will write to you asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. I suggest writing a short, concise reply mentioning the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

SWR are usually prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. A settlement tends to cost around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

A difficulty in your case is that you have come to SWR's attention before. How long ago was this? I don't think this makes the offer of a settlement impossible (particularly as your appeal was upheld) but it will probably make it harder.

If the case does proceed to court and you are found guilty (or plead guilty) then the impact on DBS checks depends on which law you are prosecuted under. A conviction under the Railway Bylaws isn't normally entered into the Police National Computer and ordinarily won't show on criminal records checks. If you are convicted under the Regulation of the Railways Act then this would be entered on to the PNC and would show on criminal record checks. On basic checks this is normally a year but on standard and enhanced checks it is longer. We would always advise being honest if you are asked if you have been convicted of a criminal offence, a conviction for a minor railway ticketing matter shouldn't adversely affect job prospects as long as you are honest about it.

Thank you so much for your help,

I won my last appeal with SWR after mentioning the fact i'm diagnosed ADHD and have very very bad organisation and time management skills which effects my day to day life extremely as well as other things i would not like to discuss, i believe this was the main reason why my appeal got won as a bad judgement of time and bad organisation have been the reason for the unpaid tickets both times, i have used SWR for years and have a long extended history of buying tickets every day.

I believe the previous mishap with SWR took place either late last year or earlier this year, i don't take the train much nowadays.

You mentioned they are usually happy to offer an out of court settlement if you have not been on their radar before but is there any chance they would consider an out of court settlement if i replied in a similar way to my last appeal mentioning the personal side of things due to it seeming to be the reason i won my last appeal.

Finally, you mentioned the two different laws you could be sentenced under, is there a way to find out which law they are most likely to put it under. You also mentioned it would show on basic checks only for a year, what do you mean by this?

Once again thank you very much!

 

[Bungle158]

This may be a "minor mishap" but it is also the road to a possible criminal conviction. Be prepared to have your ticket purchase history examined. If there are other irregularities, they could well influence how the company deals with your case and which route a potential prosecution would take.

 

[rbmuk]

This may be a "minor mishap" but it is also the road to a possible criminal conviction. Be prepared to have your ticket purchase history examined. If there are other irregularities, they could well influence how the company deals with your case and which route a potential prosecution would take.

i completely understand this, i have years worth of tickets on the SWR app most of them daily, not as much anymore as i don't take the train as often as i used too, but i am aware it will be looked through.

 

[Hadders]

Thank you so much for your help,

I won my last appeal with SWR after mentioning the fact i'm diagnosed ADHD and have very very bad organisation and time management skills which effects my day to day life extremely as well as other things i would not like to discuss, i believe this was the main reason why my appeal got won as a bad judgement of time and bad organisation have been the reason for the unpaid tickets both times, i have used SWR for years and have a long extended history of buying tickets every day.

I believe the previous mishap with SWR took place either late last year or earlier this year, i don't take the train much nowadays.

You mentioned they are usually happy to offer an out of court settlement if you have not been on their radar before but is there any chance they would consider an out of court settlement if i replied in a similar way to my last appeal mentioning the personal side of things due to it seeming to be the reason i won my last appeal.

Finally, you mentioned the two different laws you could be sentenced under, is there a way to find out which law they are most likely to put it under. You also mentioned it would show on basic checks only for a year, what do you mean by this?

Once again thank you very much!

It's unusual to win an appeal last time due to 'personal reasons', they might not be inclined to be so lenient this time round. How many times should SWR be lenient with somebody due to 'personal issues'?

I think the best think to do is to wait and see what the letter says and then decide how to reply. I would not mention the last time in your reply because I think it's best not to draw attention to the previous case, as SWR could view you as a repeat offender.

There's no way to know which law SWR will prosecute you under until the court summons arrives. As for DBS checks, there are different levels of DBS checks that can be requested. Here's a summary at the gov.uk website:

About us

The Disclosure and Barring Service helps employers make safer recruitment decisions.

www.gov.uk

DBS checks​

Our disclosure teams carry out DBS checks (previously known as CRB, or criminal record checks).

There are four types of DBS check, and each type results in a DBS certificate being issued to an individual. Employers can then ask to see the certificate to ensure that they are recruiting suitable people into their organisation.

The four levels of DBS check are:

• Basic DBS check
• Standard DBS check
• Enhanced DBS check
• Enhanced with Barred List(s) DBS check

The information contained on each type of check is different.

Basic DBS check​

A Basic DBS check is for any purpose, including employment. The certificate will contain details of convictions and conditional cautions that are considered to be unspent under the terms of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act (ROA) 1974.

An individual can apply for a Basic check directly to DBS through our online application route, or an employer can apply for a basic check on an individual’s behalf, through a Responsible Organisation, if they have consent.

Standard DBS check​

A Standard DBS check is suitable for certain roles, such as a security guard. The certificate will contain details of both spent and unspent convictions, cautions, reprimands and warnings that are held on the Police National Computer, which are not subject to filtering.

An individual cannot apply for a standard check by themselves. There must be a recruiting organisation who needs the applicant to get the check. This is then sent to DBS through a Registered Body.

The service is free for volunteers.

Enhanced DBS check​

An Enhanced DBS check is suitable for people working with children or adults in certain circumstances such as those in receipt of healthcare or personal care. An Enhanced DBS check is also suitable for a small number of other roles such as taxi licence applications or people working in the Gambling Commission.

The certificate will contain the same details as a standard certificate and, if the role is eligible, an employer can request that one or both of the DBS Barred Lists are checked.

The certificate may also contain non-conviction information supplied by relevant police forces, if it is deemed relevant and ought to be contained in the certificate.

An individual cannot apply for an Enhanced DBS check by themselves. There must be a recruiting organisation who needs the applicant to get the check. This is then sent to DBS through a Registered Body.

The service is free for volunteers.

Enhanced with Barred Lists DBS check​

An Enhanced with Barred Lists DBS check is also suitable for people working with children or adults in certain circumstances such as those in receipt of healthcare or personal care.

An Enhanced with Barred Lists certificate will contain the same information as an Enhanced DBS certificate, but will also include a check of one or both Barred Lists.

 

[Pushpit]

Finally, you mentioned the two different laws you could be sentenced under, is there a way to find out which law they are most likely to put it under. You also mentioned it would show on basic checks only for a year, what do you mean by this?

I handle DBS and EDBS problem cases for my part of the NHS and I know it's an almost identical process for the education and security (armed forces, prisons, police etc) sectors.

It's unlikely in the rail prosecution area to show up on Basic and Standard DBS, and not that common in EDBS. Depends hugely on the job you are trying to get. Moreover you have to bear in mind the process here: you fill in a form applying for a job. You declare anything relevant in this area, if it happened in the last year or so, if you have any commonsense you're going to declare prosecutions, BTP cautions and what-not. You do well in interview, you get a provisional job offer "subject to references". Then you fill in a new DBS form, provided by the new employer, bring in ID, employer sends off the DBS from their account. The critical thing is the completed DBS then goes to you not the employer, it's a weird sized green document in England (blue in Scotland). You therefore can see the contents before you present it to your employer and thus mitigate the contents when presenting it. If it's plain wrong you can get the contents reviewed and corrected. If serving in the Forces and getting a new role that requires DBS, it can be slightly different but at least in theory the candidate sees it before the employer. Note the tick box for regular updates on your DBS, it's mainly a once-off process but you can have a revolving account with DBS which frontline staff often find easier, but there's a cost for that.

The DBS, Disclosure Scotland and police units that prepare DBS documents are often stretched and there's a random mistake factor in all directions that applies here. Some DBS / EDBS disclose things that shouldn't be there (e.g. marijuana seizures from juveniles), others get "filtered" removing quite serious stuff that really ought to be there. Any large employer will know this and take allowance for it. Many (most?) DBS / EDBS jobs really struggle to get filled, those jobs also have welfare overtones, and so employers usually take a generous view, depending on the job itself. And employers are very familiar with the limitations and difficulties of DBS and EDBS. Our usual bigger difficulty is new staff "over-disclosing" things that DBS would filter out as irrelevant.

So overall unless you're trying to become Lord Chief Justice (or get Global Entry from the USA government) I wouldn't worry too much. Your bigger problem is how to actually talk about this to employers or when applying for visas in the near future, not the nuts and bolts of DBS. Doing something bad often has consequences. Both of those stations you used here have Smartcard readers, why not look into Tap2Go for when you are in a hurry? It's probably not how you want to buy tickets normally but if this is the second time it has happened, you need to consider what needs to change going forward, particularly if you have a condition that puts you at risk of bad choices.