Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[800001]

Okay, are you saying you know any of this for a *fact*? If so how?

That’s all I was trying to glean before!

Oh will you get a grip.

Why would I tell you how I know anything? That compromises my sources!

Thought you said you were not going to reply any further. For once just accept that some people know what they are writing!

There’s lots of things I know for FACT! I’m never going to say how I know that though!

 

[43066]

Oh will you get a grip.

Why would I tell you how I know anything? That compromises my sources!

Thought you said you were not going to reply any further. For once just accept that some people know what they are writing!

In my last post (a reply to @Rxstron , not addressed to you) you’ll note that I asked if anyone “who is in a position to know” could clarify the situation.

You then responded, but I have no idea why, when I think we’ve established you’re an enthusiast who has heard things on the grapevine (which may or may not be true) so, with respect, you are not someone in a position to know. Perhaps you could clarify that in future.

You should understand why people won’t just accept things written on here at face value, especially when some posting on the thread actually might work for one of the organisations concerned, so have a professional interest!

 

[800001]

In my last post (a reply to someone else, not addressed to you) you’ll note that I asked if anyone “who is in a position to know” could clarify the situation.

You then responded, but I have no idea why, when I think we’ve established you’re an enthusiast who has heard things on the grapevine (which may or may not be true) so, with respect, you are not someone in a position to know. Perhaps you could clarify that in future.

You should understand why people won’t just accept things written on here at face value, especially when some posting on the thread actually might work for one of the organisations concerned, so have a professional interest!

You (We) have established im an enthusiast? Oh you are good? You think you know
I am in a position to know, I won’t tell you how I know or who tells me. Accept that, move on, please don’t feel the need to reply!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Sounds like the flats were so bad maybe that the wheel sets were beyond needing a Lathe.

 

[800001]

Sounds like the flats were so bad maybe that the wheel sets were beyond needing a Lathe.

A wheel lathe can sort them, just not Derbys.
There’s talk of heading to Doncaster on Monday, there’s talk of a bogie swap at Dalby.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m not sure why these would have different traction motors. It’s a generic 80x with some odd styling at the front and St Pancras-ised platforms.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2023 ==

Oh will you get a grip.

Why would I tell you how I know anything? That compromises my sources!

I think most forumers would simply appreciate you providing a source as per forum rules, hence the inquisitiveness of some? It helps people to understand the reliability of information. Not long ago, it was put out there that 805s would enter service last week.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2023 ==

Sounds like the flats were so bad maybe that the wheel sets were beyond needing a Lathe.

Quite shocking in this very, very early stage of life.

 

[liamf656]

I think most forumers would simply appreciate you providing a source as per forum rules, hence the inquisitiveness of some? It helps people to understand the reliability of information. Not long ago, it was put out there that 805s would enter service last week.

100% agree, it comes across as gatekeeping. The quizzical nature and subsequent defensiveness of the messages confused things more in my opinion

Sounds like the flats were so bad maybe that the wheel sets were beyond needing a Lathe.

Do we know whether the test track has/had RHTT treatment? I'd imagine that may exasperate the issue a bit. Although (and I'm no expert) the flats did sound *bad* on video

 

[Killingworth]

Doesn't the video make it fairly clear that the flat or flats were on one bogie which explains why there's talk of bogie exchange?

I'm sure the reason for one wheel or bogie in particular locking up so badly is an area of very active investigation. Is that normal in leaf fall season?

 

[800001]

I’m not sure why these would have different traction motors. It’s a generic 80x with some odd styling at the front and St Pancras-ised platforms.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2023 ==


I think most forumers would simply appreciate you providing a source as per forum rules, hence the inquisitiveness of some? It helps people to understand the reliability of information. Not long ago, it was put out there that 805s would enter service last week.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2023 ==


Quite shocking in this very, very early stage of life.

Some sources can’t be shared as it then highlights where said information is coming from.

I will refrain from sharing any information I get regarding this going forwards.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we stick to the facts in this thread please i.e. actual updates on the EMR Class 810s introduction programme.

Thanks

 

[Kneedown]

A wheel lathe can sort them, just not Derbys.

Would Derby's lathe be able to be modified to remedy this in preparation for the 810 fleet, or will a new lathe be required do you think?

 

[800001]

Path for 810001 to move on Monday from Old Dalby to Doncaster via Peterborough.

Path below from RTT:-

Realtime Trains | 5Q47 2116 Old Dalby to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot | 04/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q47 2116 departure from Old Dalby to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot on 04/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[gingertom]

Path for 810001 to move on Monday from Old Dalby to Doncaster via Peterborough.

Path below from RTT:-

Realtime Trains | 5Q47 2116 Old Dalby to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot | 04/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q47 2116 departure from Old Dalby to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot on 04/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

diesel locomotive... stop to allow loco to run round... why is it being dragged, do the gensets not work?

 

[800001]

diesel locomotive... stop to allow loco to run round... why is it being dragged, do the gensets not work?

Yes the gensets work, as that is how it moved to and from Derby.
As it will be Gbrf moving it they may not have a driver trained on 810s.

 

[Rob F]

I’m not sure why these would have different traction motors. It’s a generic 80x with some odd styling at the front and St Pancras-ised platforms.

Is it because there are only 8 traction motors on a 5 car 810, as against 12 on a five car 800?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is it because there are only 8 traction motors on a 5 car 810, as against 12 on a five car 800?

That would be a different amount of traction motors, not different traction motors themselves.

 

[Roast Veg]

It's perfectly possible that the motors are not the same, if the supplier could not or would not agree to supply the exact same model.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is it because there are only 8 traction motors on a 5 car 810, as against 12 on a five car 800?

That would be a different amount of traction motors, not different traction motors themselves.

That is 66% of the traction motors that a 5car 800 has for the same number of coaches (granted a slightly different coach length). There is bound to be a need for each traction motor to be significantly more powerful with so few of them - 50% more power (ignoring the slightly different coach length).

 

[gingertom]

That is 66% of the traction motors that a 5car 800 has for the same number of coaches (granted a slightly different coach length). There is bound to be a need for each traction motor to be significantly more powerful with so few of them - 50% more power (ignoring the slightly different coach length).

remember the 810s are designed for 125mph top speed, not the 140 of the 80x. There's the need to match timings of the 222 on diesel so although there's less traction motors they are a beefed up model with a higher power rating, as are the gensets themselves. The gensets can accommodate the continuous rating of the motors.

 

[Trainbike46]

remember the 810s are designed for 125mph top speed, not the 140 of the 80x. There's the need to match timings of the 222 on diesel so although there's less traction motors they are a beefed up model with a higher power rating, as are the gensets themselves. The gensets can accommodate the continuous rating of the motors.

does that mean that for the most part, 810s will have the same speed and acceleration on OHLE as on diesel?

or is the temporary higher output of the engines when accelerating sufficient to make a difference?

 

[Peter Sarf]

remember the 810s are designed for 125mph top speed, not the 140 of the 80x. There's the need to match timings of the 222 on diesel so although there's less traction motors they are a beefed up model with a higher power rating, as are the gensets themselves. The gensets can accommodate the continuous rating of the motors.

Exactly. The testing in the area of traction motors at least will have to be redone.

 

[gingertom]

does that mean that for the most part, 810s will have the same speed and acceleration on OHLE as on diesel?

or is the temporary higher output of the engines when accelerating sufficient to make a difference?

you can get a slight power boost from the traction motors on electric by running "hot". Motors have a continuous rating, a 1 hour rating and a 10 minute rating. A quick burst of extra power if falling behind time, bit overdo it and the motors overheat and fail. I'd like to think the train software would take care of this by limiting the time a motor can be run hot, as well as thermal sensors to keep a close eye on things and ease it back when the temperature rises to where it approaches what is considered unsafe. On diesel the gensets can't output sufficient power to exceed the continuous rating.

On an 80x the gensets put out less than the maximum rating of the motors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2023 ==

Exactly. The testing in the area of traction motors at least will have to be redone.

I'm thinking EMC testing will need to be done as it's a new class of train. However the traction system is broadly the same as that used on the 385, with different gearing, obviously, for the higher top speed. It really ought to be a box ticking exercise as it is already proven package.

 

[Peter Sarf]

you can get a slight power boost from the traction motors on electric by running "hot". Motors have a continuous rating, a 1 hour rating and a 10 minute rating. A quick burst of extra power if falling behind time, bit overdo it and the motors overheat and fail. I'd like to think the train software would take care of this by limiting the time a motor can be run hot, as well as thermal sensors to keep a close eye on things and ease it back when the temperature rises to where it approaches what is considered unsafe. On diesel the gensets can't output sufficient power to exceed the continuous rating.

On an 80x the gensets put out less than the maximum rating of the motors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2023 ==


I'm thinking EMC testing will need to be done as it's a new class of train. However the traction system is broadly the same as that used on the 385, with different gearing, obviously, for the higher top speed. It really ought to be a box ticking exercise as it is already proven package.

So are these the same traction motors as on the 385s ?.
Albeit needing to be tested to a higher speed.

 

[800001]

Path below from real train times of what should be 810001 returning to Merchant Park from Old Dalby, later tonight

Realtime Trains | 5Q47 2138 Old Dalby to Merchant Park Sidings | 11/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q47 2138 departure from Old Dalby to Merchant Park Sidings on 11/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[QSK19]

Could there potentially be some electric running up to Newton Aycliffe? Or is the 810 not yet cleared to run in electric mode? Would there be too many trains drawing power from the overhead lines? Or does it need hauling by a loco at slow speed due to the wheel flats?

 

[800001]

Could there potentially be some electric running up to Newton Aycliffe? Or is the 810 not yet cleared to run in electric mode? Would there be too many trains drawing power from the overhead lines? Or does it need hauling by a loco at slow speed due to the wheel flats?

Wheel flats are fixed.

 

[The_Train]

Wheel flats are fixed.

When and where were they fixed? I thought the trip back to Newton Aycliffe was to fix the problem because Etches Park wasn't able to?

 

[800001]

When and where were they fixed? I thought the trip back to Newton Aycliffe was to fix the problem because Etches Park wasn't able to?

Doncaster depot fixed them.

 

[The_Train]

Doncaster depot fixed them.

When did it move to Doncaster?

 

[Lewisham2221]

When did it move to Doncaster?

I'm assuming this was it, out Monday night, back Wednesday night

Realtime Trains | 5Q47 2116 Old Dalby to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot | 04/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q47 2116 departure from Old Dalby to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot on 04/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q48 2119 Doncaster Carr Iep Depot to Old Dalby | 06/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q48 2119 departure from Doncaster Carr Iep Depot to Old Dalby on 06/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk