Hi - I recently got given this out of court settlement. From previous threads I was expecting around 150£ plus the outstanding which was 4£.10. I tried to get out at Cannon Street and only had a ticket from London Bridge when in fact I came from St John’s. The guy who issued the notice at the station said he was going to put me down for no money no ticket. Just wondered how they had come to this amount or is there anyway I can find out? Thanks in advance
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Fine for incorrect ticket
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Adam Williams
Established Member
This does not look like an out of court settlement to me.
It would appear they've come to this amount by sentencing you, as you must've been convicted. Are you certain you're not missing some paperwork?
You’ve been convicted of a criminal offence. That’s from the court.
Adam Williams
Established Member
Is this the first you've ever heard of the matter having gone to court?
They also sent me a communication previously in which they mentioned 150£ plus the 4.10£ charge for the fare. I sent off explaining that I was sorry and would make sure this didn’t happen again and that I would like this to be settled out of court and they came back with this
Adam Williams
Established Member
Can you post a suitably redacted photograph/copy of all previous correspondence on this matter?
Do you still have that communication? The fact that they were quoting £150 + £4.10 suggests that it was either the offer of an out of court settlement, or it was the court summons (or SJPN). Either way, a letter saying you were sorry and requesting a settlement wouldn’t have been the appropriate response.
JBuchananGB
Established Member
The only acceptable response to the previous communication asking for £154.10 would have been to pay it. That was your opportunity for an Out of Court settlement. As you did not pay the fee, the train company has moved onto the next step and the matter has been to court and you have been convicted. But in between you should have received some form of notification that that was going to happen. Are you saying that since declining to pay the £154.10 you heard nothing else until this latest notice?
I unfortunately sent all correspondence back with my reply. I will try and breakdown what happened.
27.09 stopped at the station and my Info was taken by the station guard
Around 14.10 letter received explaining that I had been charged with this offence and to please confirm my details and provide any other info. I only provided my details and didn’t provide any further info on the matter.
Around 14.11. I receive a letter asking me how I want to settle this (guilty and go to court, guilty and outside of court or take it to the court room). I selected guilty and outside of court as I thought that’s what I wanted to do. There was the guards statement, my info, asked me for my payment info etc. it also said about a 150 fine and a 4.10 charge which is what I thought I was selecting when I chose outside of court.
Today : received this letter around my fine
Thanks again
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27.09 stopped at the station and my Info was taken by the station guard
Around 14.10 letter received explaining that I had been charged with this offence and to please confirm my details and provide any other info. I only provided my details and didn’t provide any further info on the matter.
Around 14.11. I receive a letter asking me how I want to settle this (guilty and go to court, guilty and outside of court or take it to the court room). I selected guilty and outside of court as I thought that’s what I wanted to do. There was the guards statement, my info, asked me for my payment info etc. it also said about a 150 fine and a 4.10 charge which is what I thought I was selecting when I chose outside of court.
Today : received this letter around my fine
Thanks again
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That’s correct this is the first I have heard. I didn’t believe it gave me the option to pay it
Okay, so it seems like the process has been followed completely and correctly. You pleaded guilty to fare evasion and the court has fined you. You now have 4 weeks to pay the total of £620.10.
The amounts of £150 and £4.10 were the costs and compensation elements which will be paid to the train company. The fine and surcharge will go to the government.
If you cannot pay the full amount in one go, call the court next week and they will usually be able to split it into monthly instalments over 12 months.
The amounts of £150 and £4.10 were the costs and compensation elements which will be paid to the train company. The fine and surcharge will go to the government.
If you cannot pay the full amount in one go, call the court next week and they will usually be able to split it into monthly instalments over 12 months.
Do yo
Okay thanks. Do you think I had the option to just pay 150 plus 4.10? As it didn’t give me info on there to pay that only to reply to the letter.
The letter on 14/10 was your opportunity to reply to the train company to request the out of court settlement. Unfortunately you didn’t take up that opportunity.
The letter on 14/11 was from the court, and you pleaded guilty. The additional £333 is the fine imposed by the court, and the £133 is the victim surcharge (40% of the fine). By pleading guilty, you received a 33% discount on the fine, which would otherwise have been £500. Then on top of that you have to pay the train company’s costs (£150) and the price of the ticket (£4.10).
The letter on 14/11 was from the court, and you pleaded guilty. The additional £333 is the fine imposed by the court, and the £133 is the victim surcharge (40% of the fine). By pleading guilty, you received a 33% discount on the fine, which would otherwise have been £500. Then on top of that you have to pay the train company’s costs (£150) and the price of the ticket (£4.10).
Correct. The letter on 14/10 would have been from the train company - that was your opportunity to apologise, and request that they consider settling outside of court. They’re under no obligation to do so but our experience is that many will.
The letter on 14/11 was from the court - by definition, you can’t negotiate with the court to obtain an out of court settlement.
Thanks again. Makes more sense now. I will pay the fine asap. One more q please. Just starting my career… guessing I'm going to have to declare this as it’s a criminal offence, is this likely to seriously affect my opportunity for jobs going forward?
Yes, you will have to declare this for a year, after which it will be spent and won’t need to be declared except for a very few jobs such as working with kids or in regulated professions.
It is not likely to be very significant, but it depends slightly on what law you were convicted of breaking.
An employer is not likely to be too bothered about a one-off conviction for not paying a train fare, but they will be bothered if you fail to declare it when asked. After a year at most the conviction will be "spent" so it is no longer anyone's business (except that it may show up on an Enhanced DBS check).
It's unlikely to have a serious negative effect, unless you fail to declare it correctly when asked to do so, or you intend to work in a role with children or something else highly-regulated. It may put you at a small competitive disadvantage for most jobs where the question is asked, until the conviction is "spent".
The main punishment is simply that you pay the fine. As long as you do you, will mostly be able to forget about it and move on.
Thank you. Can I just ask please. So the first letter the court sent me, it mentioned 150 plus 4.10 - which is what you are referring to as the SJPN? And there would have been no way that I could have paid that directly as this point, this is just part of the court proceedings? Just want to have some clarity in my mind before I move on. As I wrongly believed that by pleading guilty to these correspondence I would only be paying the 150£ plus 4.10£. But it sounds like the only chance of that would have been by replying properly to the previous letter from the train company. Thank you
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Thank you for the info. Will bare this in mind.
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Haywain
Veteran Member
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If in doubt about whether you should declare the conviction to an employer you should definitely declare it. You won't get into trouble for telling them too much, but you might well do for failing to tell them enough.
This isn't correct. The conviction will definitely appear on a standard and enhanced DBS for 11 years, after which it will be filtered (removed) assuming the OP has stayed out of further trouble.
The SJPN is the Single Justice Procedure Notice, and will have had those four words written across the top. This is the letter asking you whether you wanted to plead guilty or not guilty, and if pleading guilty, whether you wanted to go to court.
Please see post 14 where I explained the meaning of the amounts of £150 and £4.10.
Had you come and posted at the time of the very first letter which asked you for your details, we would likely have been able to advise you on how to return a letter asking for an out of court settlement. Sadly, the time for that has passed now.
There was never an option offered of paying the outstanding fare and the train company’s costs. Train companies will sometimes offer that if they receive contrite responses which convince them that the behaviour is very unlikely to be repeated, but in the absence of that make use of the criminal law.
The train company told you, and the court, what financial loss they claimed you had caused them by a) depriving them of the revenue due for the journey you took and b) causing them to have to spend time investigating and processing the case against you. This was a) £4.10 and b) £150.
By pleading guilty to an offence you were then liable to be sentenced by the magistrates’ court, according to the statutory penalty for the crime (which is why the bundle of forms probably included space to indicate your income, since fines are partly income-based, along with space to submit any mitigation, that is argument that you should be punished less severely - via a smaller fine than usual. In railway cases there’s little room for that, and probably none in this case). The magistrate decided the punishment should be a fine of £333.
Finally, Parliament has decided that most people convicted of crimes should help to fund victim support services (since someone has to, and putting some of the burden on those who commit offences makes sense to the government) so there’s a surcharge of £133 to contribute to that budget.
The train company told you, and the court, what financial loss they claimed you had caused them by a) depriving them of the revenue due for the journey you took and b) causing them to have to spend time investigating and processing the case against you. This was a) £4.10 and b) £150.
By pleading guilty to an offence you were then liable to be sentenced by the magistrates’ court, according to the statutory penalty for the crime (which is why the bundle of forms probably included space to indicate your income, since fines are partly income-based, along with space to submit any mitigation, that is argument that you should be punished less severely - via a smaller fine than usual. In railway cases there’s little room for that, and probably none in this case). The magistrate decided the punishment should be a fine of £333.
Finally, Parliament has decided that most people convicted of crimes should help to fund victim support services (since someone has to, and putting some of the burden on those who commit offences makes sense to the government) so there’s a surcharge of £133 to contribute to that budget.
I have looked over some Single Justice Procedure Notices uploaded to this forum by various recipients. Presuming you were caught at London Cannon Street by Southeastern, I could only find one example from the same company, with just the "Charge Sheet" uploaded. The second half of the page has a box with "Statement of Facts", and below it a box which states
Meanwhile, examples from Transport for London (here) and Merseyrail (here) make the full financial consequences clear on their "Charge Sheet" in a "Financial Penalty" section directly under the "Statement of Facts":
Examples from Govia Thameslink Railway (here), Northern (here and here) and Crosscountry (here) also appear to only mention compensation and costs on the "Charge Sheet"/"Statement of Facts", although in some cases an additional fine may be mentioned somewhere else in the bundle of paperwork. I can see how a reader could easily overlook the fact that the court will be imposing a fine and victim surcharge on top of the specific £xxx asked for by the train company.
Meanwhile, examples from Transport for London (here) and Merseyrail (here) make the full financial consequences clear on their "Charge Sheet" in a "Financial Penalty" section directly under the "Statement of Facts":
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