Caught without valid ticket

[juicedeuce]

About 3 months ago I made a journey from Bicester to London Marylebone. This was my first ever train journey on Chiltern Railway. I had a friend who told me he’ll buy me a ticket online from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone instead but the ticket needed to be printed so I pretty much didn’t have a valid ticket. Being naive as I was, I believed him when he said it would be fine.

When I got to London Marylebone I had lied and told the staff there I got on at Wembley Stadium and that the machines wasn’t working and there wasn’t a person there to print off my ticket so I boarded the train anyway. The train was delayed for a bit before entering London Marylebone and I’m not sure this affects the next part. They said that the train I had just got off didn’t go through Wembley Stadium, however, it did btw so I was confused and they started questioning me and asked if I crossed a bridge or something and I just said yeah but they kept saying it didn’t and assumed I got on at High Wycombe, which I’m assuming is a common occurrence of people shortening journeys, but truth be told I got on at Bicester but they still don't know that. So, they asked me for my details and I gave it to them and I also paid for the fare from High Wycombe.

As of recently, I received a letter from TIL saying that I am connected to a journey between High Wycombe and London Marylebone. The letter asks that I respond to them within 21 days and inform them of any mitigation that I may wish to be considered and with it, copies of their Acts and legislation stuff I may be liable to. Not sure of what to do from here now, would appreciate some help. Found a similar situation on reddit and a few mentioned this website would be helpful.

Thanks.

 

[Titfield]

I have copied below the initial advice (slightly tailored to your query) that @Hadders gives in response to queries such as yours.

You have been caught travelling without a valid ticket. If you do not respond to the letter within the time frame, you will be taken to court and based on the information you have provided be found guilty and fined. You will also have to pay a victim surcharge and compensation to the train operating company for the fare avoided (not paid). You will have a criminal record which, whilst not the end of the world, may have an impact on your career, purchases of financial products and services and any visas you may require for travel.

It is in your interests to try and reach an out of court settlement with the train operating company (see below) and the first step in this is responding to their letter before the deadline they have set.

Your response should include the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

I would suggest that you come clean about travelling from Bicester (and not High Wycombe) because if this fact is subsequently established they may decide not to offer an out of court settlement but proceed straight to court.

Most Train Operating Companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court should they choose to do so. They will ask for your National Insurance Number and while legally you are not required to give them your National Insurance number if your desired outcome is keeping the matter out of court then I would do what you can to co-operate rather than wind them up.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't (because a fine can only be imposed by a court as a punishment following a conviction) and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

If you post a copy of the letter you have received (with all data which may identify you obscured) and your draft reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

In the meantime try not to worry and make certain that you always have a valid ticket for travel.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare.

From Bicester, that'll probably be £37-10 (and no allowance will be made for the cost of the ticket purchased online, from Wembley Stadium only, to try to get you through the barriers at Marylebone).

Wonder if the OP's "friend" will be stumping up to cover the costs that the OP will now be facing?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

To add to what has already been posted Chiltern/TIL will audit the online ticket purchasing history. Whose account was the ticket purchased under - yours or your friends?

It’s not an offence to purchase a ticket for someone else to use but if your friends account shows other instances of tickets being purchased between Wembley Stadium and Marylebone then these will need to be explained.

 

[juicedeuce]

Thanks a lot for the help. I’ll definitely write out the whole truth. What will they do with my National Insurance number?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==

I have copied below the initial advice (slightly tailored to your query) that @Hadders gives in response to queries such as yours.

You have been caught travelling without a valid ticket. If you do not respond to the letter within the time frame, you will be taken to court and based on the information you have provided be found guilty and fined. You will also have to pay a victim surcharge and compensation to the train operating company for the fare avoided (not paid). You will have a criminal record which, whilst not the end of the world, may have an impact on your career, purchases of financial products and services and any visas you may require for travel.

It is in your interests to try and reach an out of court settlement with the train operating company (see below) and the first step in this is responding to their letter before the deadline they have set.

Your response should include the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

I would suggest that you come clean about travelling from Bicester (and not High Wycombe) because if this fact is subsequently established they may decide not to offer an out of court settlement but proceed straight to court.

Most Train Operating Companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court should they choose to do so. They will ask for your National Insurance Number and while legally you are not required to give them your National Insurance number if your desired outcome is keeping the matter out of court then I would do what you can to co-operate rather than wind them up.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't (because a fine can only be imposed by a court as a punishment following a conviction) and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

If you post a copy of the letter you have received (with all data which may identify you obscured) and your draft reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

In the meantime try not to worry and make certain that you always have a valid ticket for travel.

replying to this ^

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==

Welcome to the forum!

To add to what has already been posted Chiltern/TIL will audit the online ticket purchasing history. Whose account was the ticket purchased under - yours or your friends?

It’s not an offence to purchase a ticket for someone else to use but if your friends account shows other instances of tickets being purchased between Wembley Stadium and Marylebone then these will need to be

Welcome to the forum!

To add to what has already been posted Chiltern/TIL will audit the online ticket purchasing history. Whose account was the ticket purchased under - yours or your friends?

It’s not an offence to purchase a ticket for someone else to use but if your friends account shows other instances of tickets being purchased between Wembley Stadium and Marylebone then these will need to be explained.

The ticket was bought through my friend.

 

[Titfield]

As regards the request for the National Insurance Number. A National Insurance Number is unique to the individual and therefore could be used to establish the identity of an individual but how and why a Train Operating Company would do this I am not sure.

On another thread some time ago it was suggested that the data could be used to provide additional evidence in the case the traveller later decided to pursue a mistaken identity defence ie where the person involved states that they were not stopped and that someone else must have given their name and address instead of their own.

 

[WesternLancer]

I wonder if the following could happen in this case - which has the potential to be very serious for the OP -

TIL on behalf of Chiltern Railways will almost certainly investigate the purchase history in this case - when they do I suspect they will link the purchases via the OP's friend purchasing process. No doubt the friend has been doing this on numerous occasions for themselves and other people. TIL will presumably believe all those purchases relate to the OP and seek that full amount. I would think that the only way to persuade TIL not to pursue the OP for those sorts of sums would be to co-operate and give the friends details.

I think the OP is going to have to think very carefully about this.

TIL / Chiltern take a tough line on this as their default stance so I would think avoiding prosecution is going to be difficult. The actions of the friend concerned is going to cost the OP quite a lot of money I suspect.

 

[Titfield]

I wonder if the following could happen in this case - which has the potential to be very serious for the OP -

TIL on behalf of Chiltern Railways will almost certainly investigate the purchase history in this case - when they do I suspect they will link the purchases via the OP's friend purchasing process. No doubt the friend has been doing this on numerous occasions for themselves and other people. TIL will presumably believe all those purchases relate to the OP and seek that full amount. I would think that the only way to persuade TIL not to pursue the OP for those sorts of sums would be to co-operate and give the friends details.

I think the OP is going to have to think very carefully about this.

TIL / Chiltern take a tough line on this as their default stance so I would think avoiding prosecution is going to be difficult. The actions of the friend concerned is going to cost the OP quite a lot of money I suspect.

On the basis of that what advice do we give to the OP?

Do we just say that the OP should admit that a friend bought the ticket online for him (with no further info given) or do we advise that the OP should give the name and contact details of the friend?

Hopefully the account can be linked to the friend conclusively but then, as we surmise, there will be other tickets on that account that show similar short faring. Will TfL make the assumption (possibly correct possibly incorrect) that all these tickets were for the OP.

I wonder if the OP would be best to tackle this head on and (a) give the friends contact details (b) state unequivocally that they only bought the one ticket from the friend (assuming that to be the truth).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

On the basis of that what advice do we give to the OP?

Do we just say that the OP should admit that a friend bought the ticket online for him (with no further info given) or do we advise that the OP should give the name and contact details of the friend?

Hopefully the account can be linked to the friend conclusively but then, as we surmise, there will be other tickets on that account that show similar short faring. Will TfL make the assumption (possibly correct possibly incorrect) that all these tickets were for the OP.

I wonder if the OP would be best to tackle this head on and (a) give the friends contact details (b) state unequivocally that they only bought the one ticket from the friend (assuming that to be the truth).

In practical terms, I would imagine that TIL* get quite a lot of letters saying 'a friend bought it for me but I'm not saying who'. It would be natural for TIL to assume that in most of these cases the response was untrue - it's not that far from 'the dog ate my homework' as an implausible excuse.

But we've only got what people tell us to go on, and we must assume that the OP is telling us the truth. In which case, our advice must be to tell the absolute truth to TIL: they will struggle to believe anything else but it might be possible to persuade them that what really happened is true.

So the OP needs to disclose that actually they travelled from Bicester. This, along with their reason for being in Bicester may be enough to convince TIL that there is no practical reason why the OP would be fare dodging from Wycombe.

Similarly, they have to give as much detail about the friend who bought the ticket for them as they can. As I say, it's fundamentally implausible that a friend would have done this - but it's not impossible, so the only chance of having that element of the story believed is for everything else to be clearly true, and the information about the friend to be clearly provided with the intention of being open rather than to give an excuse.


*TIL rather than TfL: The OP seems to have been on the big railway at Marylebone rather than the Underground at (e.g.) Baker Street. Although both TfL and TIL are tough to deal with, they do have different approaches so we probably need to make the distinction

 

[fandroid]

If TIL are researching the purchase history on that account then, if the OP's account is true, it will be obvious that the names are different. They will expect an explanation. If the OP simply says "a friend" bought the ticket then TIL can come to their own conclusions about the "friend" as they should be able to obtain enough information to pursue that person independently.

It strikes me that the purchasing card requirement may have got in the way of the the OP ever printing a ticket successfully if someone else did buy it.

Anyway, the OP knows the truth of this transaction so can decide for themselves how to handle it based on the advice already given here

 

[WesternLancer]

On the basis of that what advice do we give to the OP?

Do we just say that the OP should admit that a friend bought the ticket online for him (with no further info given) or do we advise that the OP should give the name and contact details of the friend?

Hopefully the account can be linked to the friend conclusively but then, as we surmise, there will be other tickets on that account that show similar short faring. Will TfL make the assumption (possibly correct possibly incorrect) that all these tickets were for the OP.

I wonder if the OP would be best to tackle this head on and (a) give the friends contact details (b) state unequivocally that they only bought the one ticket from the friend (assuming that to be the truth).

posts 9 and 10 address this helpfully.

I suspect the OP can or may tell them the ticket was bought by a friend without disclosing details of that person, but I suspect TIL will just investigate this from the purchase records and / or ask for the details of such friend. If the OP chooses not to answer that TIL then have the options they would otherwise have - eg offer a settlement or prosecute the OP in court. I would have thought that TIL would be influenced by how co-operative they feel the OP is being in response to the letters TIL send them. With that in mind if the OP wants to get a chance of a least worst outcome to this they will need to be prepared to name their friend.

 

[fandroid]

It may help the OP establish their credibility if they freely admit to boarding at Bicester. That appears to be something that TIL are currently not aware of

 

[juicedeuce]

On the basis of that what advice do we give to the OP?

Do we just say that the OP should admit that a friend bought the ticket online for him (with no further info given) or do we advise that the OP should give the name and contact details of the friend?

Hopefully the account can be linked to the friend conclusively but then, as we surmise, there will be other tickets on that account that show similar short faring. Will TfL make the assumption (possibly correct possibly incorrect) that all these tickets were for the OP.

I wonder if the OP would be best to tackle this head on and (a) give the friends contact details (b) state unequivocally that they only bought the one ticket from the friend (assuming that to be the truth).

This was legit the first ever time I had done this. Honestly didn’t think it would be this rough. Should’ve just bought the ticket. I’m planning on writing out the whole truth of course, including buying a ticket through a friend without stating their name and then see what happens from there. This is the first letter I have received from them btw so it’s still very new

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I’m planning on writing out the whole truth of course, including buying a ticket through a friend without stating their name and then see what happens from there.

I would not expect this to work - both because TIL are tough to convince (it's perfectly normal for it to need at least a couple of rounds of correspondence before they will agree to allow someone to settle out of court) and saying 'an unnamed friend did it for me' simply isn't convincing. Blaming someone else is what people try when they're guilty, and not naming the person they're blaming is also what guilty people do.

Please note that I'm not saying that you are guilty - but you will be acting just like a guilty person does. And so TIL will decide that you're acting like that because you are guilty.

Looking forward, if the matter goes to court and you plead not guilty, then in law it's for the prosecutor (TIL) to prove their case 'beyond reasonable doubt'. But the magistrates they have to convinced weren't born yesterday and are allowed to use their life experience in considering who is telling the truth. They will also think that unless you can name the friend who bought the ticket for you then you're making the story up. So you will be convicted and will have to pay the fine.

Quite simply, if someone did buy the ticket for you on their account, you need to say who it was. Otherwise TIL and the court will conclude that it was actually you who bought the ticket.

 

[jumble]

About 3 months ago I made a journey from Bicester to London Marylebone. This was my first ever train journey on Chiltern Railway. I had a friend who told me he’ll buy me a ticket online from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone instead but the ticket needed to be printed so I pretty much didn’t have a valid ticket. Being naive as I was, I believed him when he said it would be fine.

When I got to London Marylebone I had lied and told the staff there I got on at Wembley Stadium and that the machines wasn’t working and there wasn’t a person there to print off my ticket so I boarded the train anyway. The train was delayed for a bit before entering London Marylebone and I’m not sure this affects the next part. They said that the train I had just got off didn’t go through Wembley Stadium, however, it did btw so I was confused and they started questioning me and asked if I crossed a bridge or something and I just said yeah but they kept saying it didn’t and assumed I got on at High Wycombe, which I’m assuming is a common occurrence of people shortening journeys, but truth be told I got on at Bicester but they still don't know that. So, they asked me for my details and I gave it to them and I also paid for the fare from High Wycombe.

As of recently, I received a letter from TIL saying that I am connected to a journey between High Wycombe and London Marylebone. The letter asks that I respond to them within 21 days and inform them of any mitigation that I may wish to be considered and with it, copies of their Acts and legislation stuff I may be liable to. Not sure of what to do from here now, would appreciate some help. Found a similar situation on reddit and a few mentioned this website would be helpful.

Thanks.

Please can you clarify
Did you buy the ticket from High Wycombe to Marylebone from the Member of staff with whom you engaged or did you buy it later from the internet ?

 

[juicedeuce]

Please can you clarify
Did you buy the ticket from High Wycombe to Marylebone from the Member of staff with whom you engaged or did you buy it later from the internet ?

Yes, I bought it from the member of staff at Marylebone.

 

[jumble]

It may help the OP establish their credibility if they freely admit to boarding at Bicester. That appears to be something that TIL are currently not aware of

It also will alert TIL to the fact that having been caught out by lying as having boarded at Wembley the OP tried to mitigate that the lie by effectively lying again by buying a ticket from High Wycombe which I do not think would be a very clever thing to do

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==

Yes, I bought it from the member of staff at Marylebone

I wonder if TIL are aware of this as I personally have never heard of anyone being prosecuted having been stopped and then charged on the spot for the journey
perhaps more learned posters could comment who may know more about the real world situation here
I would no way be mentioning Biscester at this time to anyone and I think it would be useful for you to post the exact letter suitably redacted

 

[juicedeuce]

It also will alert TIL to the fact that having been caught out by lying as having boarded at Wembley the OP tried to mitigate that the lie by effectively lying again by buying a ticket from High Wycombe which I do not think would be a very clever thing to do

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==

The member of staff charged me for it and let me go after taking my details.

 

[jumble]

It also will alert TIL to the fact that having been caught out by lying as having boarded at Wembley the OP tried to mitigate that the lie by effectively lying again by buying a ticket from High Wycombe which I do not think would be a very clever thing to do

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==


I wonder if TIL are aware of this as I personally have never heard of anyone being prosecuted having been stopped and then charged on the spot for the journey
perhaps more learned posters could comment who may know more about the real world situation here
I would no way be mentioning Biscester at this time to anyone and I think it would be useful for you to post the exact letter suitably redacted as I note you said the letter only refers to a single journey unlike Lansdon's post yesterday

 

[Haywain]

Quite simply, if someone did buy the ticket for you on their account, you need to say who it was. Otherwise TIL and the court will conclude that it was actually you who bought the ticket.

I'm in two minds over this bit. If it was purchased from an account that is not in the OP's name or using the OP's address/email, that would go some way to back up the assertion that it was someone else who bought it. However, if it was a 'guest checkout' that may be more difficult to put forward as genuine.

 

[WesternLancer]

This was legit the first ever time I had done this. Honestly didn’t think it would be this rough. Should’ve just bought the ticket. I’m planning on writing out the whole truth of course, including buying a ticket through a friend without stating their name and then see what happens from there. This is the first letter I have received from them btw so it’s still very new

Yeah, like others say this not going ot be easy - as it opens it up to them (possibly) wanting to charge you for every other illegitimate ticket from Wembley this friend has bought for all his other friends as they think this is all you on all those occasions.

 

[juicedeuce]

It also will alert TIL to the fact that having been caught out by lying as having boarded at Wembley the OP tried to mitigate that the lie by effectively lying again by buying a ticket from High Wycombe which I do not think would be a very clever thing to do

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==


I wonder if TIL are aware of this as I personally have never heard of anyone being prosecuted having been stopped and then charged on the spot for the journey
perhaps more learned posters could comment who may know more about the real world situation here
I would no way be mentioning Biscester at this time to anyone and I think it would be useful for you to post the exact letter suitably redacted

Wdym in the last part? Not mention

About 3 months ago I made a journey from Bicester to London Marylebone. This was my first ever train journey on Chiltern Railway. I had a friend who told me he’ll buy me a ticket online from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone instead but the ticket needed to be printed so I pretty much didn’t have a valid ticket. Being naive as I was, I believed him when he said it would be fine.

When I got to London Marylebone I had lied and told the staff there I got on at Wembley Stadium and that the machines wasn’t working and there wasn’t a person there to print off my ticket so I boarded the train anyway. The train was delayed for a bit before entering London Marylebone and I’m not sure this affects the next part. They said that the train I had just got off didn’t go through Wembley Stadium, however, it did btw so I was confused and they started questioning me and asked if I crossed a bridge or something and I just said yeah but they kept saying it didn’t and assumed I got on at High Wycombe, which I’m assuming is a common occurrence of people shortening journeys, but truth be told I got on at Bicester but they still don't know that. So, they asked me for my details and I gave it to them and I also paid for the fare from High Wycombe.

As of recently, I received a letter from TIL saying that I am connected to a journey between High Wycombe and London Marylebone. The letter asks that I respond to them within 21 days and inform them of any mitigation that I may wish to be considered and with it, copies of their Acts and legislation stuff I may be liable to. Not sure of what to do from here now, would appreciate some help. Found a similar situation on reddit and a few mentioned this website would be helpful.

Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==

Here is the letter that I received^

 

[fandroid]

OK. The letter only deals with the one journey. So the response should be as set out in post #2, and only cover that incident. When requesting a settlement and offering to pay for the company's expenses it would be legitimate to point out that the High Wycombe to Marylebone fare has already been paid to the officer who stopped the OP at Marylebone

 

[jumble]

Wdym in the last part? Not mention


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2023 ==

Here is the letter that I received^

OK. The letter only deals with the one journey. So the response should be as set out in post #2, and only cover that incident. When requesting a settlement and offering to pay for the company's expenses it would be legitimate to point out that the High Wycombe to Marylebone fare has already been paid to the officer who stopped the OP at Marylebone

]

If I were the OP I personally would send a PM to TSPaul asking if they wouldn't mind coming on to the thread to advise before doing anything
.

 

[MotCO]

Was the letter sent to the OP by TIL sent to an address in Bicester, so would TIL wonder why the journey was only claimed to be from High Wycombe? The OP may either have to explain this (without lying to TIL - that is a definite no-no) or own up to the real journey. If TIL feel that something does not ring true - i.e. live in Bicester but travel from High Wycombe - are they more likely to not offer an out of Court settlement?