Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[jon0844]

Ah good, does this mean that cars no longer need MOT's, drugs don't need clinical trials, and products no longer need testing as all you need to do is just say your it's safe and as such it must be!
Well of the government can do it why can't everyone else.

Hasn't some of that already happened, where companies are trusted to self certify themselves and thus saves the Government a lot of money having people to inspect and enforce because, of course, no company would lie or cheat.

Wasn't Grenfell partly down to companies being able to declare their own products safe without checks?

 

[Egg Centric]

Whatever their reasons for coming here, one thing is for sure - this country cannot continue to absorb an increase of more than a million people every eighteen months or so. The UK will have to devise another way to deal with its ageing population.

Of course it can. It just needs to build more houses and the infrastructure to go along with them. Millions more. Plenty of space for them if you tell the nimbys to go to hell. That is the root of most of our problems really. And it needs to do it even if we halt migration entirely.

These thresholds are not necessarily unreasonable but they should have been brought in in a graduated way (previous spousal threshold was below full time minimum wage so stupid in the "other direction") to let the labour market adjust. Absolutely imbecilic how they have been. Except even more stupidity when Sunak's ratings don't change for the better. Cause they won't.

The idea the legal immigration into this country is easy is insane. By the time my wife has citizenship the bill for everything associated will have been approx 15-20k (depending on how you value time). Current one is the ILR application this month which is about 3k. We can afford it but others can't.

 

[dgl]

Hasn't some of that already happened, where companies are trusted to self certify themselves and thus saves the Government a lot of money having people to inspect and enforce because, of course, no company would lie or cheat.

Wasn't Grenfell partly down to companies being able to declare their own products safe without checks?

Well yes, the CE and UKCA marks are self certified, though naturally they are supposed to actually conform to the applicable regulations. This Rwanda thing is more like the C E marks on dodgy imported Chinese electrical goods!

 

[jfollows]

There is now speculation that Rishi Sunak may be compelled to make the vote on the Rwanda legislation (EDIT Second Reading now scheduled for Tuesday 12 December) a "confidence" vote, in order to prevent the right wing of the Conservative party joining the Labour party in voting against the principle of the legislation, which should occur next week.
Plus the right of the party may also be considering sending in the infamous letters to trigger a vote of confidence in Sunak as leader.
Although I'm not unhappy to watch the Conservative party self-destruct in this way, I do wonder about the lack of rationality of it all. We refer to the "Westminster bubble" and I think it's relevant here - large numbers of MPs playing political games without considering their consequences, other than their self-promotion inside an increasingly rancid and valueless party.
EDIT I don't think I'm going to be collecting on my £10 bet on a January 2025 election.

 

[ainsworth74]

We refer to the "Westminster bubble" and I think it's relevant here - large numbers of MPs playing political games without considering their consequences, other than their self-promotion inside an increasingly rancid and valueless party.

It's interesting isn't it? There was a lot of, very justified, pointing out around 2019 that Twitter was not real life and those of a more liberal/left wing bent missed the Boris triumph as a result. If Twitter had been the UK electorate Corbyn would be just reaching the end of his first term (I don't think he would be let's not get sidetracked)!

And I've been wondering for a little while if something similar isn't now happening to the Tory Party and elements of the right wing. It's too easy to fall back into the comfort blanket of the right wing press like the Mail or the Telegraph, or begin to believe your own hype that only the 'New Conservatives' really speak for "the British People", etc etc.

Could be wholly wrong of course. But it feels like a similar dynamic of disconnect is beginning to play out.

 

[Falcon1200]

Did he want to invade the Netherlands in order to improve the vaccination availability for the country, or did he want to invade them because it would boost his ratings

Both! (Assuming that invasion was a real possibility, which if course it never, ever was)

Threatening military action against a site in another (democratic) country which is supposedly an ally is just a little bit extreme though!

When did Boris threaten military action? There is a difference between words allegedly spoken in the heat of the moment and actions.

(BTW I am glad Boris is no longer PM, he has demonstrated his unsuitability for the role on numerous occasions, but he should be judged on his actions and their results)

 

[SuspectUsual]

Listening to Braverman be interviewed on radio 4 earlier I don’t think I’ve ever been angrier listening to a politician. She is a vile human being

 

[jfollows]

Nick Robinson to Suella Braverman (from https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1732681493556719799):

When you're on the radio and the television, Suella Braverman, you talk about substance, you talk quite reasonably. When I ask you questions about tough language, you sort of laugh at me as if I'm the one talking about a Conservative death wish.

You've condemned the leader of your party as uncertain, weak and lacking in leadership, you've said he never had any intention of keeping his promises, you've accused him of betrayal and wishful thinking.

You've attacked lawyers, judges, civil servants, the head of the Metropolitan Police, people who are worried about deaths in Gaza, you've attacked the homeless, you've attacked migrants as being part of an invasion.

Isn't the truth you're a headline-grabber who does it by spreading poison, even within your own party?

Not a lot to disagree with there, for me.

 

[nw1]

Listening to Braverman be interviewed on radio 4 earlier I don’t think I’ve ever been angrier listening to a politician. She is a vile human being

I missed out on the delight of listening to the sage of wisdom known as Suella Braverman. What did she say? Just curious...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2023 ==

When did Boris threaten military action? There is a difference between words allegedly spoken in the heat of the moment and actions.

Other people would probably be sacked for words "allegedly spoken in the heat of the moment".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2023 ==

The idea the legal immigration into this country is easy is insane. By the time my wife has citizenship the bill for everything associated will have been approx 15-20k (depending on how you value time). Current one is the ILR application this month which is about 3k. We can afford it but others can't.

I do wonder whether the Tories welcome "the right kind of immigrant" (the ones that will give them money and/or support them) but don't want others, which is why they make things like visas and citizenship so difficult to obtain unless you have lots of money. Let the rich foreigners in, keep the scruffy plebs out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2023 ==

I think that's probably the aim.

While I am a pro-immigration supporter, if you are of the opinion that we have to restrict it, how about judging immigrants on worthiness/need rather than money?

So if you're a nurse or a carer, or some other job we're lacking, or have a partner or family here, you're prioritised.

Merely having lots of money or having a well-paid job (in a field where there is no labour shortage) should not help you get to the front of the visa queue.

 

[jfollows]

I missed out on the delight of listening to the sage of wisdom known as Suella Braverman. What did she say? Just curious...

Reported at https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rman-conservatives-uk-politics-latest-updates:

Suella Braverman rejects claim she is plotting to bring down Rishi Sunak

Here are the main lines from Suella Braverman’s interview on the Today programme.

• Braverman, the former home secretary, claimed that she was not actively plotting to bring down Rishi Sunak as Tory leader and she claimed she hoped he would lead the party into the next election. (See 9.14am.) She said:

I want the prime minister to succeed in stopping the boats. He said he would do whatever it takes. I’m telling him there is a way to succeed in stopping the boats and fulfilling that promise.

If we do it, if he does it as prime minister, he will be able to lead us into the next election telling the people we have succeeded on this very important pledge.

• She rejected claims the Conservative party had a “death wish”.
• She said the Rwanda bill published yesterday would not work. She explained:

There are elements that should be welcomed in this new bill that the prime minister has presented.

But taken as a whole and looking at the reality of the challenges that are involved in detaining people, removing people and getting them to Rwanda – this is a very litigious field and there are lots of legal frameworks that apply – the reality is and the sorry truth is that it won’t work and it will not stop the boats.

• She said the bill needed to be changed “to totally exclude international law – the refugee convention, other broader avenues of legal challenge”.
• She defended her habit of making controversial and provocative statements. She said:

The truth is that when I served as home secretary I sought to be honest; honest to the British people, honest for the British people, and sometimes honesty is uncomfortable.

But I’m not going to shy away from telling people how it is and from plain speaking, and if that upsets polite society then I’m sorry about that.

But the point is that we need to be honest, we need to be clear-eyed about the situation right now.

We can’t keep failing the British people. We have made promise after promise [on immigration]. We have put forward plan after plan. They have all failed. And we have now run out of time.

 

[M&NEJ]

So if you're a nurse or a carer, or some other job we're lacking, or have a partner or family here, you're prioritised.

Totally agree with you; but then I'm biased because I want to bring a spouse here. Article 8 of the human rights act provides for the opportunity of family life but measures have to be "proportional" between the right of the individual and the needs of the state - I think the onus is on the state to show that its restrictions are indeed "proportional".

Edit: there seem to be a few of us here with an interest in this. Do we want to start a separate thread on "family immigration" or spouse visas or something?

 

[Howardh]

Sunak should have immediately withdrawn the whip; which begs a question, if an MP is whipped and becomes independent, could they still put their name forward as a Conservative member to run for premiership??

 

[Falcon1200]

Other people would probably be sacked for words "allegedly spoken in the heat of the moment".

Although, unless we were actually there, we cannot possibly know the context or tone of the words spoken (just as with reported 'concerns' over the colour of a baby's skin....)

 

[Fragezeichnen]

The Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is about to make a statement in Downing Street, behind a lectern labelled "STOP THE BOATS". In the background is a list of the governments key priorities, with "STOP THE BOATS" highlighted. I'm not sure what the others are, they're a bit hard to read at Youtube resolution.

Maybe they should just rename the conservative party the "Stop the boats Party"?

 

[jfollows]

Maybe they should just rename the conservative party the "Stop the boats Party"?

But it's the "Unable to stop the boats party" isn't it?

 

[brad465]

One joke doing the rounds is that Robert Jenrick's constituency (Newark) is an anagram of his nickname.

 

[jfollows]

Sunak should have immediately withdrawn the whip; which begs a question, if an MP is whipped and becomes independent, could they still put their name forward as a Conservative member to run for premiership??

The 1922 Committee sets the rules, but it won't allow MPs with the whip withdrawn to participate. Instead, it's more likely that the whip will be restored unless the MP has been kicked out of the party permanently; Tobias Ellwood for example had a temporary restoration to allow him to vote in the 2022 election process because the rules didn't allow him to vote either.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Never let it be said that Braverman isn’t compassionate. In successive sentences she went from rabbit ting on about the scourge of the small boats to referring to a raft of legislation

 

[jfollows]

There is now speculation that Rishi Sunak may be compelled to make the vote on the Rwanda legislation (EDIT Second Reading now scheduled for Tuesday 12 December) a "confidence" vote, in order to prevent the right wing of the Conservative party joining the Labour party in voting against the principle of the legislation, which should occur next week.

Rishi Sunak "confirmed" (in that he didn't do so in his press conference, but subsequently Number 10 said that he had done) that the vote won't be a "confidence" vote, so it'll be less disastrous to lose the vote this way, but then if it'd have been a "confidence" vote the likelihood of losing the vote would be lower .......

 

[takno]

Rishi Sunak "confirmed" (in that he didn't do so in his press conference, but subsequently Number 10 said that he had done) that the vote won't be a "confidence" vote, so it'll be less disastrous to lose the vote this way, but then if it'd have been a "confidence" vote the likelihood of losing the vote would be lower .......

It's possible that some MPs in what's left of the less-deranged wing of the party may have made it clear that they'd be quite happy to vote against a confidence motion, rather than continuing to be part of this car-crash.

 

[nw1]

Reported at https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rman-conservatives-uk-politics-latest-updates:

Ah ok thanks. The main delusion she self-evidently appears to have is that "the British people" are all like her. We're not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2023 ==

But it's the "Unable to stop the boats party" isn't it?

The message should be "S*d the boats, and get on with fixing the NHS and the cost of living crisis".



EDIT: how about a late Christmas charity record. "Stop - the - bo-o-o-oats" to the tune of Do They Know It's Christmas. Sung by Sunak with a choir of Tory MPs behind him.

And an alternative version fronted by Jenrick and Braverman backed by a choir of ERG types.

Let the battle for Christmas number one commence....

 

[SuspectUsual]

EDIT: how about a late Christmas charity record. "Stop - the - bo-o-o-oats" to the tune of Do They Know It's Christmas. Sung by Sunak with a choir of Tory MPs behind him.

Or an alternative version of perennial Xmas favourite Stop The Cavalry

 

[brad465]

What this saga highlights is how the Tories are not one party, but a coalition of unstable factions (you can say the same about Labour, but they are much more stable right now). The evidence for this factionalism in the Tory party is that they have a 70-odd seat majority in Parliament, and yet they are changing leader, caving into public and/or political pressure and infighting far more than under May when she led in a hung Parliament.

For this reason I'd be surprised if the next election is later than May/June, not because the Tories want it then, but because they are looking increasingly like being unable to last until Autumn.

 

[Purple Train]

EDIT: how about a late Christmas charity record. "Stop - the - bo-o-o-oats" to the tune of Do They Know It's Christmas. Sung by Sunak with a choir of Tory MPs behind him.

And an alternative version fronted by Jenrick and Braverman backed by a choir of ERG types.

Let the battle for Christmas number one commence....

I'm trying to work out a topical version of I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In - what I have so far is probably too theological for me to post here without being off-topic, but some variation on I Saw Three Ships would be my pick for Christmas number one

 

[takno]

What this saga highlights is how the Tories are not one party, but a coalition of unstable factions (you can say the same about Labour, but they are much more stable right now). The evidence for this factionalism in the Tory party is that they have a 70-odd seat majority in Parliament, and yet they are changing leader, caving into public and/or political pressure and infighting far more than under May when she led in a hung Parliament.

For this reason I'd be surprised if the next election is later than May/June, not because the Tories want it then, but because they are looking increasingly like being unable to last until Autumn.

You do get the impression that some Tory MPs have got so fed up of it all, and are itching to move on and take up whatever post-MP job they've already negotiated for themselves. If there's enough of them when a topic comes up that Sunak can't chicken out of having a vote on, then they could force the issue.

Honestly I think it's more likely to just pathetically run the course, like a demented and dysfunctional version of the later Major years.

 

[bspahh]

I'm trying to work out a topical version of I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In - what I have so far is probably too theological for me to post here without being off-topic, but some variation on I Saw Three Ships would be my pick for Christmas number one

I asked ChatGPT for: "a song with Suella Bravermann looking at small boats with immigrants to the UK based on the song I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In". It came up with:

(Verse 1)
Suella Bravermann, by the shore,
Watching boats that seek no more.
Small vessels on the ocean wide,
Carrying dreams, a heartfelt tide.

(Chorus)
Suella stands, her gaze held strong,
As small boats navigate along.
Seeking refuge, a hopeful plea,
In her eyes, what does she see?

(Verse 2)
She watches as the boats draw near,
Voices whispering, filled with fear.
Her stance is firm, her thoughts unknown,
In this moment, compassion shown.

(Chorus)
Suella stands, her gaze held strong,
As small boats navigate along.
Seeking refuge, a hopeful plea,
In her heart, what does she see?

(Bridge)
A choice to make, a path to take,
Humanity's call, a stance to stake.
In her hands, the power lies,
To offer aid beneath the skies.

(Verse 3)
She sees the faces, each worn line,
The stories hidden, hopes align.
Suella Bravermann, on the shore,
Contemplating what's in store.

(Outro)
Suella Bravermann, by the bay,
May kindness guide her heart's display.
In the face of these boats adrift,
Let compassion be her guiding gift.

 

[Purple Train]

I asked ChatGPT for: "a song with Suella Bravermann looking at small boats with immigrants to the UK based on the song I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In". It came up with:

(Verse 1)
Suella Bravermann, by the shore,
Watching boats that seek no more.
Small vessels on the ocean wide,
Carrying dreams, a heartfelt tide.

(Chorus)
Suella stands, her gaze held strong,
As small boats navigate along.
Seeking refuge, a hopeful plea,
In her eyes, what does she see?

(Verse 2)
She watches as the boats draw near,
Voices whispering, filled with fear.
Her stance is firm, her thoughts unknown,
In this moment, compassion shown.

(Chorus)
Suella stands, her gaze held strong,
As small boats navigate along.
Seeking refuge, a hopeful plea,
In her heart, what does she see?

(Bridge)
A choice to make, a path to take,
Humanity's call, a stance to stake.
In her hands, the power lies,
To offer aid beneath the skies.

(Verse 3)
She sees the faces, each worn line,
The stories hidden, hopes align.
Suella Bravermann, on the shore,
Contemplating what's in store.

(Outro)
Suella Bravermann, by the bay,
May kindness guide her heart's display.
In the face of these boats adrift,
Let compassion be her guiding gift.

Have fun classifying that in the Metrical Index (and writing a tune that fits)!

I'm also not quite sure where in I Saw Three Ships there is a bridge and chorus. Well, a chorus. There's a bridge on the ship I suppose.

 

[brad465]

I asked ChatGPT for: "a song with Suella Bravermann looking at small boats with immigrants to the UK based on the song I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In". It came up with:

(Verse 1)
Suella Bravermann, by the shore,
Watching boats that seek no more.
Small vessels on the ocean wide,
Carrying dreams, a heartfelt tide.

(Chorus)
Suella stands, her gaze held strong,
As small boats navigate along.
Seeking refuge, a hopeful plea,
In her eyes, what does she see?

(Verse 2)
She watches as the boats draw near,
Voices whispering, filled with fear.
Her stance is firm, her thoughts unknown,
In this moment, compassion shown.

(Chorus)
Suella stands, her gaze held strong,
As small boats navigate along.
Seeking refuge, a hopeful plea,
In her heart, what does she see?

(Bridge)
A choice to make, a path to take,
Humanity's call, a stance to stake.
In her hands, the power lies,
To offer aid beneath the skies.

(Verse 3)
She sees the faces, each worn line,
The stories hidden, hopes align.
Suella Bravermann, on the shore,
Contemplating what's in store.

(Outro)
Suella Bravermann, by the bay,
May kindness guide her heart's display.
In the face of these boats adrift,
Let compassion be her guiding gift.

How about:

"So I'd like to know where, you got those boats from?
Said I'd like to know where, you got those boats from?

Stop the boats
Oh stop the boats baby!
Stop the boats
Let's tip the boats over!
Stop the boats
Oh stop the boats baby!
Stop the boats"

To the tune of Forrest's Rock the Boat.

 

[takno]

I asked ChatGPT for: "a song with Suella Bravermann looking at small boats with immigrants to the UK based on the song I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In". It came up with:

(Verse 1)
Suella Bravermann, by the shore,
Watching boats that seek no more.
Small vessels on the ocean wide,
Carrying dreams, a heartfelt tide.

(Chorus)
Suella stands, her gaze held strong,
As small boats navigate along.
Seeking refuge, a hopeful plea,
In her eyes, what does she see?

(Verse 2)
She watches as the boats draw near,
Voices whispering, filled with fear.
Her stance is firm, her thoughts unknown,
In this moment, compassion shown.

(Chorus)
Suella stands, her gaze held strong,
As small boats navigate along.
Seeking refuge, a hopeful plea,
In her heart, what does she see?

(Bridge)
A choice to make, a path to take,
Humanity's call, a stance to stake.
In her hands, the power lies,
To offer aid beneath the skies.

(Verse 3)
She sees the faces, each worn line,
The stories hidden, hopes align.
Suella Bravermann, on the shore,
Contemplating what's in store.

(Outro)
Suella Bravermann, by the bay,
May kindness guide her heart's display.
In the face of these boats adrift,
Let compassion be her guiding gift.

I think you might need to give ChatGPT some context on who she is - it seems to be confusing her with a basically decent person.

 

[Purple Train]

How about:

"So I'd like to know where, you got those boats from?
Said I'd like to know where, you got those boats from?

Stop the boats
Oh stop the boats baby!
Stop the boats
Let's tip the boats over!
Stop the boats
Oh stop the boats baby!
Stop the boats"

To the tune of Forrest's Rock the Boat.

I'm not a pop music person, really - how about a nice dash of soft rock? Something like this (written on the back of an envelope so apologies if it is a little bit rushed):

It's a cracking-the-whip affair
To the girl with the flowing hair
But the country was yelling, "No!"
And her leader then told her to go,
But her plan's nowhere to be seen
As she walks through her twisted dream,
And she wants to remain on view,
To once more be her allies' queen.
But the leader's a saddening bore,
He's refused her ten times or more,
So she spits as she calls them fools
As they ask her to focus on

MPs fighting on the House floor,
Weak man, look at the yes-men go -
It's your Tory show,
Catch your own brown eyes, lawman,
Beating up the wrong guy,
Lawman, wonder if you might let go
Of the Rwandan show,
Is there life on Mars?

With sincere apologies to David Bowie!

(I still prefer I Saw Three Ships though )