Grand Central Rail- 8 passenger seats closed off

[Wolfie]

Surely there are a few intermingled issues here?

1) Do staff have the right to a break uninterrupted by the public? Yes, of course they do. Anyone suggesting otherwise is being silly.

2) Should they therefore have access to a space which is separate from the public? Yes, that's kinda vital to the implementation of point 1 above. The fact that other organisations don't provide this to their staff is an indictment of those organisations rather than proof that anyone else (including myself, I get my breaks away from the public!) should change their approach.

3) Does GCs solution satisfy 1 and 2? Sorta, personally if it was me I'd not be pleased if that was my break space but it probably works in the general sense.

4) Is GCs solution sensible however? In my opinion not really. For a start I'm not convinced it's really suitable anyway for the staff who need to use it but more to the point it clearly isn't a great look for GC (not the staff, they get what they're given it's nowt to do with them) to be reserving 8 table seats when many of their trains are busy and either only one or two (or even none) staff are using it. If GC and their staff have agreed breaks can be taken on the train then GC should implement a slightly more robust solution than just a piece of A4 paper with some sticky tape. Even that sort of curtain affair they use to separate business from economy on aircraft would do the trick in my opinion. But a proper partition would be far more preferable, it doesn't exactly need to be robust (read difficult and expensive).


Good for you, and neither have I! Indeed I recently needed to speak to a CrossCountry conductor prior to the departure of a train but seeing as he was obviously on a break (enjoying some fish and chips which is what gave the game away) in the 1st class compartment of the train I left him alone until he was finished. But I have zero doubt that many other people would not be so considerate as you or I.

What a thoughtful well-balanced post.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2023 ==

Nonsense. I must have travelled on trains where there are also uniformed staff travelling a million times and never once felt it necessary to interrupt them.

To be fair l never said that you were an entitled Herbert. The number of people who l hear start conversations with "l only wanted to...." though....

 

[185]

I would encourage the staff to stop the train, allow passengers to sit in those seats, and have their 40 minute break at a mess-room perhaps near Retford and resume the journey 45 minutes late, but terminate at Yarm as it's so late, and order a 12-seater minibus to allow customers to complete their journey. Oh, hang on, that didn't work... that's the way a clueless manager who belongs in Asda would run our railway.

> With the above in mind, anything that encourages staff to have a legally required break on a train should be welcomed by most passengers. The 1% in the minority should discuss their complaint with the other passengers, and subsequently choose which door they will be thr escorted out of by their fellow 99% of passengers.

One claim that the train is "clearly full and standing" with an empty, free seat just 40 centimetres from the complainant photographer.

I know one company where TMs and catering staff DO have breaks on board.

 

[DarloRich]

Surely there are a few intermingled issues here?

1) Do staff have the right to a break uninterrupted by the public? Yes, of course they do. Anyone suggesting otherwise is being silly.

2) Should they therefore have access to a space which is separate from the public? Yes, that's kinda vital to the implementation of point 1 above. The fact that other organisations don't provide this to their staff is an indictment of those organisations rather than proof that anyone else (including myself, I get my breaks away from the public!) should change their approach.

3) Does GCs solution satisfy 1 and 2? Sorta, personally if it was me I'd not be pleased if that was my break space but it probably works in the general sense.

4) Is GCs solution sensible however? In my opinion not really. For a start I'm not convinced it's really suitable anyway for the staff who need to use it but more to the point it clearly isn't a great look for GC (not the staff, they get what they're given it's nowt to do with them) to be reserving 8 table seats when many of their trains are busy and either only one or two (or even none) staff are using it. If GC and their staff have agreed breaks can be taken on the train then GC should implement a slightly more robust solution than just a piece of A4 paper with some sticky tape. Even that sort of curtain affair they use to separate business from economy on aircraft would do the trick in my opinion. But a proper partition would be far more preferable, it doesn't exactly need to be robust (read difficult and expensive).

Insert sensible post alarm siren emoji here!

 

[Intercity110]

Whilst i agree with the concept, the execution is very haphazard and informal, of course staff deserve a break, and if there's no space on the train, they should make some, but a bit of tape and a piece of paper? really? can't they do something like, for an example, put a 700 first class compartment wall there? In that case, it'd enable the staff to have a break without passengers annoying them.

 

[357]

The original method of work, when on the Western, required the driver & guard to return a buzzer code before the doors were released, dispatch then took place from a door panel.

Bizarre! But what else can be expected on the Western

 

[greyman42]

Yes, it's always blocked off.

Not always. I sat in one of these bays on a Sunday morning service from York to Kings Cross which is always packed.

 

[800001]

Maybe this a sign carried over from Covid, and some crews are still deciding to use it?

 

[skyhigh]

Not always. I sat in one of these bays on a Sunday morning service from York to Kings Cross which is always packed.

It's only at one end of the train though, and I'm fairly sure they don't swap it when they change ends so sometimes it's behind the leading cab and sometimes trailing.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's only at one end of the train though, and I'm fairly sure they don't swap it when they change ends so sometimes it's behind the leading cab and sometimes trailing.

In my experience, it has been in the northbound end.

 

[WSMP]

I would encourage the staff to stop the train, allow passengers to sit in those seats, and have their 40 minute break at a mess-room perhaps near Retford and resume the journey 45 minutes late, but terminate at Yarm as it's so late, and order a 12-seater minibus to allow customers to complete their journey. Oh, hang on, that didn't work... that's the way a clueless manager who belongs in Asda would run our railway.

> With the above in mind, anything that encourages staff to have a legally required break on a train should be welcomed by most passengers. The 1% in the minority should discuss their complaint with the other passengers, and subsequently choose which door they will be thr escorted out of by their fellow 99% of passengers.

One claim that the train is "clearly full and standing" with an empty, free seat just 40 centimetres from the complainant photographer.

I know one company where TMs and catering staff DO have breaks on board.

I've known a few clueless managers like that in my time.....

I think GC crew PNB onboard during turn arounds at KX, not sure if they have mess room access but in my experience the open access guys keep themselves to themselves. I have once known a link that had a break on board, but it was a one off by local agreement.

 

[6Gman]

I meant in the context of working on a train and taking a break on the train. Clearly my job isn't important enough to be required for the whole journey so is it required for any of it?

I don't know the details of arrangements with this operator. But when I used to prepare diagrams for traincrew for a living being allowed to diagram breaks on a moving train would have been very useful, but wasn't allowed.

If the agreement at this operator allows breaks to be taken on train then I can see how that could be useful and economical.

 

[43066]

Piffle. What about the person up front?

Generally the instruction will be for no more than one person to be forward of a particular point.

Drivers are indeed seated in the crumple zone, because they’re expendable and nobody likes them anyway .

I meant in the context of working on a train and taking a break on the train. Clearly my job isn't important enough to be required for the whole journey so is it required for any of it?

Completely wrong. As above some operators diagram breaks on trains.

 

[Towers]

Generally the instruction will be for no more than one person to be forward of a particular point.

Drivers are indeed seated in the crumple zone, because they’re expendable and nobody likes them anyway .

This is, of course, why they’re so grossly overpaid - it’s danger money!

 

[greyman42]

In my experience, it has been in the northbound end.

That is also my experience and that is where i was sat.
I would also point out that these seats were just about the only ones in the train without reservations so perhaps they removed the sign at the last minute when they realised the train was going to be full and standing, which it was.

 

[robbeech]

Warning : a little bit of speculation and a couple of anecdotes may follow, but it’s based on experience of work load shift between roles.

There seems to be a lot of people here who are baffled by the idea of staff taking a break on the train and not inbetween journeys.

I work in live events, namely touring artists and festival work over the summer. during a festival there are several job roles that have differing work schedules. Some crew are really busy whilst a band is playing but get to rest in between bands. Others are really busy between the bands but get to rest when the bands are on stage.

I’m not really familiar with how the different on board roles work on a train (other than the obvious) but I feel I can have an educated guess and I believe there are similarities.

It’s pretty clear that the driver needs to be there from the start of the journey to the very end. The train doesn’t move without them. A guard is also busy throughout the journey, especially if they do revenue duties too but they’ll be particularly busy on the approach to stations, at stations and on departure. There may be periods where there isn’t as much to do, particularly if there are longer gaps between stations but (correct me if I’m wrong) it isn’t likely to be suitable for them to have an official break during the journey.
However, other staff on a train may have more varied work loads. If there’s a dedicated revenue person they’re likely to be flat out on departure from the origin and busy after high turnover stations but it’s possible they will have less to do at certain points. If we take an example of a train that has multiple stops but then is fast between (for example) York and King’s Cross then there’s a definite argument that a dedicated revenue person could have their break 10 to 15 minutes after York. The same applies to retail staff, 1st class hosts etc. At the end of a journey the driver takes a break but there’s likely still lots to do for catering staff and similar, Infact the turnaround time between journeys may well be their busiest time.

Surely therefore it makes perfect sense for certain staff to take their break on the train part way through its journey so they can be ready for the busier part of their job role, perhaps when the train reaches its destination. It seems like this is the most efficient way of utilising staff.

Of course, it might be less than ideal for staff if they don’t have a suitable area to do so. I agree that they should have an area but also agree that this approach seen in this thread comes across pretty badly for them.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Whilst partitioning off a set of seats is a lovely idea, this should be done at a planned overhaul really - is it really a good idea to take trains out of service from an already stretched fleet when the bit of tape and sign seems to work at the moment as an interim measure. Also, the long term future of Class 180 is not exactly definite. There will be some design required and possibly some Vehicle Acceptance Board (or whatever it is these days) input, it's not just something that can be knocked out overnight with some no more nails and bits of ply.

 

[sprunt]

Of course, it might be less than ideal for staff if they don’t have a suitable area to do so. I agree that they should have an area but also agree that this approach seen in this thread comes across pretty badly for them.

Yes - it's in all industries, not just the railway, this is a terrible arrangement. Uniformed staff in areas where there are customers should always be on duty. If I'm in Tesco, and see someone wearing a Tesco uniform so approach them to ask where something is and they reply - reasonably, because they're on a break - "I'm not working, don't ask me" that reflects badly on Tesco as as well as causing an annoyance for the staff member. That's why you don't see Tesco staff eating their sandwiches on the shop floor, Tesco will have an area out of sight of the customers for the staff to take their breaks and the railway should be doing the same.

It seems especially weird that an open access TOC is doing this. If I have what I consider a bad experience with a member of staff on AWC then I have to suck it up really, as if I want to catch a train from Manchester to London I have no choice of operator. If I have a similar experience on a Grand Central train, I have an alternative service provider to choose so they should really be going out of their way to avoid things like this.

 

[skyhigh]

It seems especially weird that an open access TOC is doing this. If I have what I consider a bad experience with a member of staff on AWC then I have to suck it up really, as if I want to catch a train from Manchester to London I have no choice of operator. If I have a similar experience on a Grand Central train, I have an alternative service provider to choose so they should really be going out of their way to avoid things like this.

My suspicion is that hardly anyone chooses GC because they're GC. Most people will use the likes of Trainline (or even the LNER website) and pick whatever fare/timing looks best to them. GC Advances are usually priced below LNER's so their services will be highlighted as cheapest. It's only when they turn up at the platform they'll realise who they're travelling with.

 

[YorkRailFan]

My suspicion is that hardly anyone chooses GC because they're GC. Most people will use the likes of Trainline (or even the LNER website) and pick whatever fare/timing looks best to them. GC Advances are usually priced below LNER's so their services will be highlighted as cheapest. It's only when they turn up at the platform they'll realise who they're travelling with.

That and because GC serve some markets which LNER doesn't serve or doesn't serve frequently (Bradford and Sunderland).

 

[robbeech]

That and because GC serve some markets which LNER doesn't serve or doesn't serve frequently (Bradford and Sunderland).

A handful of direct services throughout the day, so people who are less picky about timings may choose a direct train although the number of 1 change at a major station options are significant for many of those stations served by GC so unless the timing just happens to fit, many people will be focussed on price.

 

[LowLevel]

Yes - it's in all industries, not just the railway, this is a terrible arrangement. Uniformed staff in areas where there are customers should always be on duty. If I'm in Tesco, and see someone wearing a Tesco uniform so approach them to ask where something is and they reply - reasonably, because they're on a break - "I'm not working, don't ask me" that reflects badly on Tesco as as well as causing an annoyance for the staff member. That's why you don't see Tesco staff eating their sandwiches on the shop floor, Tesco will have an area out of sight of the customers for the staff to take their breaks and the railway should be doing the same.

It seems especially weird that an open access TOC is doing this. If I have what I consider a bad experience with a member of staff on AWC then I have to suck it up really, as if I want to catch a train from Manchester to London I have no choice of operator. If I have a similar experience on a Grand Central train, I have an alternative service provider to choose so they should really be going out of their way to avoid things like this.

It's part of life on the railway. If I'm walking along a platform with a bag of fish and chips and a coffee to the mess room I can still guarantee people will flag me down to ask me questions, albeit quite often apologising for asking me while I'm clearly on a break in the process. There's no such thing as a back door.

I just answer them and carry on my way. Same as if I'm walking to the car park after I've finished etc.

 

[sprunt]

It's part of life on the railway. If I'm walking along a platform with a bag of fish and chips and a coffee to the mess room I can still guarantee people will flag me down to ask me questions, albeit quite often apologising for asking me while I'm clearly on a break in the process. There's no such thing as a back door.

I just answer them and carry on my way. Same as if I'm walking to the car park after I've finished etc.

Right, but you wouldn't want to be faced with the people asking questions once you've sat down with your meal and started eating I'd guess.

 

[43066]

Warning : a little bit of speculation and a couple of anecdotes may follow, but it’s based on experience of work load shift between roles.

There seems to be a lot of people here who are baffled by the idea of staff taking a break on the train and not inbetween journeys.

I work in live events, namely touring artists and festival work over the summer. during a festival there are several job roles that have differing work schedules. Some crew are really busy whilst a band is playing but get to rest in between bands. Others are really busy between the bands but get to rest when the bands are on stage.

I’m not really familiar with how the different on board roles work on a train (other than the obvious) but I feel I can have an educated guess and I believe there are similarities.

It’s pretty clear that the driver needs to be there from the start of the journey to the very end. The train doesn’t move without them. A guard is also busy throughout the journey, especially if they do revenue duties too but they’ll be particularly busy on the approach to stations, at stations and on departure. There may be periods where there isn’t as much to do, particularly if there are longer gaps between stations but (correct me if I’m wrong) it isn’t likely to be suitable for them to have an official break during the journey.
However, other staff on a train may have more varied work loads. If there’s a dedicated revenue person they’re likely to be flat out on departure from the origin and busy after high turnover stations but it’s possible they will have less to do at certain points. If we take an example of a train that has multiple stops but then is fast between (for example) York and King’s Cross then there’s a definite argument that a dedicated revenue person could have their break 10 to 15 minutes after York. The same applies to retail staff, 1st class hosts etc. At the end of a journey the driver takes a break but there’s likely still lots to do for catering staff and similar, Infact the turnaround time between journeys may well be their busiest time.

Surely therefore it makes perfect sense for certain staff to take their break on the train part way through its journey so they can be ready for the busier part of their job role, perhaps when the train reaches its destination. It seems like this is the most efficient way of utilising staff.

Of course, it might be less than ideal for staff if they don’t have a suitable area to do so. I agree that they should have an area but also agree that this approach seen in this thread comes across pretty badly for them.

It varies by operator, ultimately drivers are probably the only group who are guaranteed a break off train across the board with guards next most likely, and it varies for other grades - our customer hosts appear to stay with their trains throughout the day. That said breaks off train (ie away from the place of work) really should be the minimum standard, as per most industries - what’s shown above is the worst of all worlds.

I can still guarantee people will flag me down to ask me questions, albeit quite often apologising for asking me while I'm clearly on a break in the process. There's no such thing as a back door.

This is why some drivers wear their own coats etc. to minimise interaction (obviously guards/platform staff can’t get away with that so easily). It’s unbelievable how people will ask questions of staff even when they’re very clearly engaged in doing something important such as dispatching, or hand signalling a train into a platform, and then look reproachful when they’re robustly told to wait until the process is finished.

 

[DarloRich]

It’s unbelievable how people will ask questions of staff even when they’re very clearly engaged in doing something important such as dispatching

because to normals it looks like you are just stood there gazing at a train.

it is why staff need breaks away from the public - else they wont get a break.

 

[Mwanesh]

Come on guys let's not be like the Sun making a mountain out of a molehill. What about the rest of the carriage. I see an empty seat right in front of who took the picture. It can't have been full surely

 

[SussexSeagull]

I have never worked on Trains but I used to work in a shop and a few of us were in the middle of moving a fairly heavy refrigeration unit. With this thing literally in mid air someone came along and asked where they could find milk, as obviously it couldn't wait a couple of minutes.

Most of the general public are fine but s minority don't have the sense they were born with. Anyone in a public facing role should be able to take breaks behind closed doors.

 

[43066]

because to normals it looks like you are just stood there gazing at a train.

I can (just about) buy that for dispatch, but hand-signalling, where the staff member is stood at the platform edge waving towards a slowly approaching train? Certain people just seem completely wrapped up in their own worlds.

 

[Deepgreen]

Clearly the train is full and standing.

Not sure what the issue is.

I don't know how you derive that - the picture shows at least one passenger seat empty and no-one standing. The question is; is the area closed off for the entirety of every journey, and when it IS packed, what is the reaction of passengers?

 

[trebor79]

Right, but you wouldn't want to be faced with the people asking questions once you've sat down with your meal and started eating I'd guess.

The food court scene in Bad Santa comes to mind!

 

[Deepgreen]

A further thought - perhaps the train's design should have included a small, private area for staff. If the area shown is always closed off, then there would be no loss of seats by doing so, and it could probably be arranged to give, say, two staff seats plus table in a small office and thus free up perhaps four - six seats for passengers. I'm sure the staff would prefer a more private area too.