UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Noddy]

No, it wasn't.

Not all EVs are Teslas, with their own charging networks deliberately inaccessible to other makes. The range of any electric car decreases with usage of the battery, and there is an astronomical cost when the battery needs replacing. Fact= sales of secondhand electric cars have plummeted in value and unsold new EVs are stored in car parks all over the place.

In Cornwall, relying on an electric car, even if you have home charging, is problematic with so few public charging points and a return drive from Penzance to the Devon border being almost 150 miles. I've no doubt that in large cities the infrastructure is much better, but not everyone lives there. Besides, even the cheapest EVs are way too expensive for so many to buy, so the number of cars on the road will decrease a lot more in poorer areas over the next decade.

What’s having a Tesla got to do with being able to do more than 100 miles? I have a Cupra Born and was getting 230 miles out of it in Summer, 190 miles in these very cold conditions. With that kind of range I could get to Bristol (or beyond) from most of Cornwall. And here is a map of the ‘so few’ public chargers in Cornwall.



Many of those dots have multiple chargers-eg the Instavolt site just off the A30 Bodmin bypass which has 12 chargers. Like everywhere else it’s improving all the time.

And Tesla is opening out its charging network to the general public. They are currently rebuilding their site at Lifton just off the A30 (in Devon but right on the border) with 16 chargers that will be available to everyone.

 

[Deafdoggie]

@Busaholic

I had a holiday in Cornwall and my hotel had chargers. I could have done a whole week using that charger alone, as every day would start me on 100% charge. We didn't go there to drive all day, so probably did 40-50 miles a day at most. The longest drive was London to Cornwall, but most cars could do that in one go - but we stopped twice for food/rest breaks anyway. I'd sooner park, plug in, go indoors for food than park, go indoors for food, return to car, drive to petrol station, fill up, go in and queue to pay, then drive out.

If you're not solely going for fuel, EV charging is quicker than fuelling.

I think this is a good point. I choose my accommodation on its charging facilities, those that don't have any are going to get left behind.

 

[trebor79]

Electric vehicles will for the large part be confined to those able to charge at home and who normally confine their motoring in a day to considerably less than 100 miles.

Utter nonsense. I do a 190 mile round trip commute two or three times a week and have no need to charge away from home when doing so.
In the summer I drove 260 miles from home in Norfolk to Preston without stopping to charge (stopped for a rest etc though).

I think the fact of the matter is that the National Grid cannot support the scale of charging which would be required to come anywhere near what is required,

This is also utter nonsense

It never ceases to amaze me how people can make contributions such as this when on this very thread there are multiple examples of people with EVs who do comfortably more than 100 miles a day.

Indeed. The FUD is easy to believe because it sounds sensible to someone with zero knowledge of the reality - I believed it and then I tried an EV and had an epiphany. The FUD is all nonsense

No, it wasn't.

Not all EVs are Teslas, with their own charging networks deliberately inaccessible to other makes. The range of any electric car decreases with usage of the battery, and there is an astronomical cost when the battery needs replacing.

<Sigh>. Most of the degradation occurs early in the cars life, and it seems to be the case that it levels off at about 10% unless you do something stupid like abuse the battery by leaving it constantly charged to 100% (though some chemistries are OK with that). It's not a straight line degradation, the rate of degradation slows to basically zero. So in real life nobody is going to be replacing the battery before the car itself is well worn. There are multiple examples of MG 5's used as taxis now well over 100,000 or even 150,000 miles and the batteries are still less than 10% degraded. Loads of Teslas over 100,000 or even 200,000 miles.

Fact= sales of secondhand electric cars have plummeted in value

Yes. 18 months ago a second hand one cost more than a new one due to the well publicised chip shortages etc. The market has normalised, as it was always going to.

and unsold new EVs are stored in car parks all over the place.

Really? Where?

I grew up as a big believer in electrically driven traction, with Southern Electric on my local railway line, no diesels or steam to be seen,there was even a double decker train. In Eltham we had the very last of the first generation London trams and, down the road, my absolute favourite the trolleybus. I helped the milkman on his electric milk float and saw battery Harrods delivery vans wizzing about. So all my predilections were in favour of electric cars when they were introduced, clean and quiet etc etc. I might even have described myself as an EVangelical! It's both the way they've been introduced in this country and the truth about lithium extraction that first started raising red flags with me, with the rich and powerful being given huge financial incentives that were unwarranted imo. Of course, the sight of Elon Musk being such an advocate was a warning sign too as I've never believed a word he's said. In Cornwall, relying on an electric car, even if you have home charging, is problematic with so few public charging points and a return drive from Penzance to the Devon border being almost 150 miles. I've no doubt that in large cities the infrastructure is much better, but not everyone lives there. Besides, even the cheapest EVs are way too expensive for so many to buy, so the number of cars on the road will decrease a lot more in poorer areas over the next decade.

Wow. A lot of conspiracy stuff there.
I guess extracting, transporting and refining oil, spilling some of it along the way, before burning it and releasing the fumes into the atmosphere must be a whole lot cleaner than extracting a few kg of metal and using it over and over and over again for the life of the vehicle before it's recycled into a ew battery for a new vehicle in 20 years time?

What are these huge incentives that the "rich and powerful" have been given? And who are these "rich and powerful" people exactly?

There are chargers all over Devon and Cornwall, including rapid hubs at Launceston, Bodmin, Exeter etc. and destination chargers in many car parks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Besides, even the cheapest EVs are way too expensive for so many to buy, so the number of cars on the road will decrease a lot more in poorer areas over the next decade.

Again, sheer fantasy. They are now, they won't be in time. There's near enough no second hand market now bar Nissan Leafs, for instance.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Noting the thread title, the car manufactures seem to make more and more TV adverts exhorting people to move over to electric vehicles and the workers in the car production plants seem in accordance with that particular aspiration.

 

[trebor79]

Besides, even the cheapest EVs are way too expensive for so many to buy, so the number of cars on the road will decrease a lot more in poorer areas over the next decade.

Again, sheer fantasy. They are now, they won't be in time. There's near enough no second hand market now bar Nissan Leafs, for instance.

Oh yes, I forgot about this comment. The capital cost is certainly a bit higher at present, but actually we're getting towards parity:
Tesla Model 3 is cheaper than a BMW 3 series
MG 5 and MG 4 are similar/cheaper than ICE equivalents
Citroen eC3 coming next year for circa £21k
Chinese brands such as BYD coming into the market with capable vehicles that are much more reasonably priced

Battery costs continue to fall, which will allow prices to reduce further.

And it's more than just the purchase price. Depending upon the mileage you do, the fuel savings are significant. I bought a Tesla using a bank loan, and, such is the mileage I do, the fuel savings alone more than cover the monthly cost of the loan. There's also no need to have it serviced at inflated dealer rates.
Something like the MG range and eC3, someone doing circa 10,000 miles a year and charging at home is effectively getting the car for free.
So yeah, it's a bit teeth sucky when you see the headline price, but I worked out the total cost of ownership and saw it was considerably cheaper for me to buy the Tesla than continue to run a worn out old 208.

 

[stuu]

Again, sheer fantasy. They are now, they won't be in time. There's near enough no second hand market now bar Nissan Leafs, for instance.

That's not true. Autotrader has loads of cars below £10k, BMWs, VWs, Mercs etc

 

[GusB]

Noting the thread title, the car manufactures seem to make more and more TV adverts exhorting people to move over to electric vehicles and the workers in the car production plants seem in accordance with that particular aspiration.

Eh?!

Car manufacturers have been making adverts exhorting people to move over to their latest and greatest creations for as long as cars and television have existed! As for their workers, I'm sure that they're happy to go along with whatever strategy their employer comes up with as long as their bank accounts are suitably recharged at the end of each month.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Electric vehicles will for the large part be confined to those able to charge at home and who normally confine their motoring in a day to considerably less than 100 miles. If and when diesel and petrol engined cars get banned, which could well happen if insurance companies refuse to insure them with governments leaning on them, then the bulk of the population will have to use public transport, walk or cycle.

I think the fact of the matter is that the National Grid cannot support the scale of charging which would be required to come anywhere near what is required, even if there was a 'national plan' on the lines you suggest. Being the U.K. there is no national plan, of course, and even if there was it would be a token one.

Surely you'd just buy an EV where the range is what you need? I was doing an 80 mile daily round commute when I got mine, so I got one that did 100 miles range in winter. I'd have got one that did more if I'd needed it. Equally, I'd have got one that did less if it suited my needs.
50 weeks of the year I just charge at home overnight, when I go on holiday I can cope with public charging. I've been to Inverness & Penzance in it, no major issues at all.

 

[Greybeard33]

Despite Rishi Sunak's petrolhead culture war rhetoric, his government has now passed the legislation for EV minimum sales quotas, in the teeth of a rebellion by rightwing Tory MPs:

Sunak suffers major Tory rebellion in vote on net zero plans

Suella Braverman and Dame Priti Patel among 26 Conservative MPs to oppose quota on electric car sales

www.telegraph.co.uk

The two former home secretaries joined backbenchers to oppose a quota on sales of electric cars.
The measure was passed with Labour’s support on Monday evening but will be a worry to Mr Sunak as Tory rebels reached the “magic number” of 26 – the number of his own MPs that would overturn his majority.

The controversial mandate compels car manufacturers to ensure that at least 22 per cent of their vehicles sold will be electric from Jan 1.
By 2030, 80 per cent of cars sold will need to be zero emission, even though the outright ban on petrol and diesel does not come in until 2035.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Despite Rishi Sunak's petrolhead culture war rhetoric, his government has now passed the legislation for EV minimum sales quotas, in the teeth of a rebellion by rightwing Tory MPs:

Sunak suffers major Tory rebellion in vote on net zero plans

Suella Braverman and Dame Priti Patel among 26 Conservative MPs to oppose quota on electric car sales

www.telegraph.co.uk

How long will it be before the word "petrolhead" becomes meaningless?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long will it be before the word "petrolhead" becomes meaningless?

"Electrohead"?

If you're a "petrolhead" because you like driving fast/aggressively, then an EV is probably the best choice now...

 

[DustyBin]

How long will it be before the word "petrolhead" becomes meaningless?

A "petrolhead" is a car enthusiast, not someone who simply doesn't want to drive an EV (yet). It doesn't (or didn't) even have negative connotations, so I'm not sure why some people insist on using it!

"Electrohead"?

If you're a "petrolhead" because you like driving fast/aggressively, then an EV is probably the best choice now...

In the case of some "petrolheads" you're probably correct. (I'm thinking of the Carwow drag race brigade in particular!).

 

[WelshBluebird]

Electric vehicles will for the large part be confined to those able to charge at home and who normally confine their motoring in a day to considerably less than 100 miles.

1. The range of nearly all EV's is much higher than 100 miles, even the used ones.
2. And even ignoring that, the vast vast majority of motorists drive much less than 100 miles in a day.

 

[Mawkie]

Reported today that 50% of London black cabs are electric.

Does that mean pure BEV, or do some taxis have those small 'generator' type engines too?

Edited for autocorrect.

 

[paul1609]

That's not true. Autotrader has loads of cars below £10k, BMWs, VWs, Mercs etc

Theres loads of 3 year old ex fleet EVs on the market now, probably exceeding demand from the private buyer thats why depreciation is so high for some brands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not true. Autotrader has loads of cars below £10k, BMWs, VWs, Mercs etc

I don't think people in "poorer estates" are buying the 3 year old fleet cars and the likes, they're primarily in the market for smaller cars costing around £3-5K at absolute most, many are after a £1K banger. That market doesn't exist yet bar Leafs (ish), but will in maybe 5-10 years.

And no, there aren't loads of BMW, VW, Merc etc EVs in that price range, I just looked. It's Leafs and the likes. There are petrol and diesel cars, yes, but note the thread title.

 

[SargeNpton]

I don't think people in "poorer estates" are buying the 3 year old fleet cars and the likes, they're primarily in the market for smaller cars costing around £3-5K at absolute most, many are after a £1K banger. That market doesn't exist yet bar Leafs (ish), but will in maybe 5-10 years.

And no, there aren't loads of BMW, VW, Merc etc EVs in that price range, I just looked. It's Leafs and the likes. There are petrol and diesel cars, yes, but note the thread title.

Those living in pre-1960s estates/terraces, where the use of privates cars by the average worker was not a considered likely at the time of construction, are also not buying 3-year old EVs. Simply because there is nowhere to charge them overnight in the street or nearby; and with no realistic prospect of on-street chargers being installed en mass.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those living in pre-1960s estates/terraces, where the use of privates cars by the average worker was not a considered likely at the time of construction, are also not buying 3-year old EVs. Simply because there is nowhere to charge them overnight in the street or nearby; and with no realistic prospect of on-street chargers being installed en mass.

Home is not the only place to charge. Sure, it costs more to charge away from home, but there are other benefits of EVs than simply being cheaper (and indeed in due course they'll be taxed so they aren't cheaper, just like small diesels were).

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Currently for a majority of the population it isn't, for the reasons you stated as well as the cost.

There are pleanty of low milage 2022 EVs on Autotrader for less than £16,000.

Not all EVs are Teslas, with their own charging networks deliberately inaccessible to other makes.

Tesla are opening up the SuperCharger network to all EVs. Back in August 25 locations were open all. I don't bother keeping track. I know Aberystwth, Flint Mountain, Trafford Centre (Manchester), and Carmarthen are open to any car that can plug in.

They've started rolling out the 250kW V4 SuperCharger, which have contactless card readers so you don't even need the Tesla app. Once Tesla completes the change over to V4, all locations will be open to any EV with a CCS connector.

There is no reason all EVs can't have plug-and-charge, other than legacy manufacturer inabilty to implement the obvious.

 

[HSTEd]

The reality is most cars in the vehicle fleet aren't driven intensively enough to require much more than a 3kW charger once they are replaced by electrics.

Everyone with off road parking will only very rarely need to visit a fast charging point.
From a grid perspective the optimum is the greatest possible number of low power chargers, positioned in the greatest number possible of parking locations.

Ten 1kW chargers are better than 1 10kW charger. It is unfortunately annoying that in the UK the CCS standard cannot easily support AC charging at below 6A (~1400W).

EDIT:
Average vehicle mileage is around 6600 miles a year in 2022 according to DfT statistics. That is approximately 18 miles per day.

A typical electric car might be a Kia e-Niro that apparently manages 0.24kWh/mi in typical weather on a "combined" driving cycle.

Average battery depletion will be on order of 4.3kWh per day.

Asssuming eight hours available overnight for charging, average charge power will be on order of 500W!
3kWh of charge power is ample, even before we attempt to encourage people to plug in at every opportunity (which we should for grid reasons).

The pre coronavirus figure was higher at around 7500 miles, but that is still going to be about 4.9kWh/day!

 

[stuu]

I don't think people in "poorer estates" are buying the 3 year old fleet cars and the likes, they're primarily in the market for smaller cars costing around £3-5K at absolute most, many are after a £1K banger. That market doesn't exist yet bar Leafs (ish), but will in maybe 5-10 years.

And no, there aren't loads of BMW, VW, Merc etc EVs in that price range, I just looked. It's Leafs and the likes. There are petrol and diesel cars, yes, but note the thread title.

That's a huge shift of the goal posts from your original statement, no mention of "poorer estates", just that there's no second hand market. There are currently 435 electric cars available for under £10k, less than half are Nissans (which is admittedly a very high proportion)

 

[Darandio]

That's a huge shift of the goal posts from your original statement, no mention of "poorer estates", just that there's no second hand market. There are currently 435 electric cars available for under £10k, less than half are Nissans (which is admittedly a very high proportion)

And you seem to be changing words to suit. The post actually said near enough no second hand market. Considering there are normally half a million used cars on sale at any one time the lower hundreds certainly fits the definition set out by @Bletchleyite to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a huge shift of the goal posts from your original statement, no mention of "poorer estates", just that there's no second hand market.

Is there a fault with your computer that means you can't see the post I quoted when replying to it, which referred to exactly that?

(In all seriousness - if you've turned off quoted text, which I think you can, you may wish to turn it back on as without that you lose a lot of context)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2023 ==

And you seem to be changing words to suit. The post actually said near enough no second hand market. Considering there are normally half a million used cars on sale at any one time the lower hundreds certainly fits the definition set out by @Bletchleyite to me.

Yep. There is a second hand market but it's quite immature. Ten years and it'll be as good as the ICE one is now, possibly better because EVs are likely to last a lot longer than ICEs.

 

[trebor79]

The reality is most cars in the vehicle fleet aren't driven intensively enough to require much more than a 3kW charger once they are replaced by electrics.

Everyone with off road parking will only very rarely need to visit a fast charging point.
From a grid perspective the optimum is the greatest possible number of low power chargers, positioned in the greatest number possible of parking locations.

Ten 1kW chargers are better than 1 10kW charger. It is unfortunately annoying that in the UK the CCS standard cannot easily support AC charging at below 6A (~1400W).

EDIT:
Average vehicle mileage is around 6600 miles a year in 2022 according to DfT statistics. That is approximately 18 miles per day.

A typical electric car might be a Kia e-Niro that apparently manages 0.24kWh/mi in typical weather on a "combined" driving cycle.

Average battery depletion will be on order of 4.3kWh per day.

Asssuming eight hours available overnight for charging, average charge power will be on order of 500W!
3kWh of charge power is ample, even before we attempt to encourage people to plug in at every opportunity (which we should for grid reasons).

The pre coronavirus figure was higher at around 7500 miles, but that is still going to be about 4.9kWh/day!

There's no point charging at 3kW or below, because the vehicle systems and on board charger typically consumes/wastes around 1-1.5kW. So there's a very good technical reason for not supporting charging below 6A, it would be literally pointless and a huge waste of electricity. 10 1kW chargers would be as useful as a chocolate fireguard.
Grid load can be balanced by turning chargers on and off, which is exactly what my supplier does. I plug my car in and it charges at full whack on and off, controlled by Octopus, but is ready at my selected charge level by the time I specify.

There are very good reasons for charging as fast as possible - it's more efficient. But that can be modulated to balance load. Turning everyone down to a very low charge rate would just cost us all in wasted electricity.

 

[HSTEd]

There's no point charging at 3kW or below, because the vehicle systems and on board charger typically consumes/wastes around 1-1.5kW.

It's an incredibly badly designed vehicle if it runs requires 1kW to run charging circuitry handling a handful of amps.
Do you have a study that supports this position? I've not heard of it my self and I literally work in this field.

Grid load can be balanced by turning chargers on and off, which is exactly what my supplier does. I plug my car in and it charges at full whack on and off, controlled by Octopus, but is ready at my selected charge level by the time I specify.

Doing it by stuttering chargers has grid implications if done at a very large load though. It will also be necessary for the DNO to control chargers on an individual LV feeder basis, which Octopus is unlikely to be able to do, furthermore turning chargers on and off is unlikely to be able to provide the required granularity on a low voltage feeder circuit. To achieve the necessary rapid decarbonisation the distribution system is going to have to be run far harder and on far smaller margins than it does today.

EDIT:

This paper disagrees with your central argument, suggesting that whilst efficiency increases with charging power it is far from zero even at charging rates of 1kW or less!

Roughly 80% for 120Vac charging at 1kW, compared to about 95% peak efficiency at very high currents and voltages. As expected, 230V charging has lower losses than 120V charging. By 230V@8A efficiency is already far above 90%, suggesting that the low voltage is a major issue for the 120V charging.
Significant, yes, but certainly not devastating considering the extraordinarily low cost of installing lower power chargers.

At worst 15% more energy is required to charge the car at the low power than the very high power, but the very high power chargers cost large sums of money and have major other costs associated with them in grid terms.

 

[paul1609]

Is there a fault with your computer that means you can't see the post I quoted when replying to it, which referred to exactly that?

(In all seriousness - if you've turned off quoted text, which I think you can, you may wish to turn it back on as without that you lose a lot of context)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2023 ==



Yep. There is a second hand market but it's quite immature. Ten years and it'll be as good as the ICE one is now, possibly better because EVs are likely to last a lot longer than ICEs.

I suspect the reality is that in 10 years time the EV technology will have moved on. I had a Leaf company car it was awful then but I certainly wouldnt buy one secondhand now.

 

[Energy]

Grid load can be balanced by turning chargers on and off, which is exactly what my supplier does. I plug my car in and it charges at full whack on and off, controlled by Octopus, but is ready at my selected charge level by the time I specify.

Something I'd like the government to do is instead of controlling chargers just give a period of 2-3hrs of slightly discounted electricity for EV charging with this time period varying to spread out demand.

Most cars/chargers already support timed charging, incentivising customers is better than connecting all chargers over the internet to the DNO.

 

[stuu]

And you seem to be changing words to suit. The post actually said near enough no second hand market. Considering there are normally half a million used cars on sale at any one time the lower hundreds certainly fits the definition set out by @Bletchleyite to me.

There's over 18,000 second hand electric cars available - most of those are above £10k though, which is understandable as they haven't been mass-market for that long. Out of 300k (all on Autotrader). So no, I don't think I am

 

[HSTEd]

Something I'd like the government to do is instead of controlling chargers just give a period of 2-3hrs of slightly discounted electricity for EV charging with this time period varying to spread out demand.

In a renewable system it won't be a "slight" discount. Electricity prices will inevitably be swinging wildly in a fashion that is unpredictable more than a few days in advance.
They will shoot between huge and zero (or even negative) and back again due to the characteristics of renewable generating systems.

Time of use charging will be insufficient because we won't know in advance when the time of least and most system stress will be.

We must be ready to soak up a glut of power whenever it arrives, hence the needs for lots of chargers so every car battery that isn't moving is available wherever it is currently parked.

Most cars/chargers already support timed charging, incentivising customers is better than connecting all chargers over the internet to the DNO.

Well it wouldn't have to be over the internet.....

DNOs (at least until very recently) controlled large numbers of meters through Radio 4 Longwave.

Numerous robust signalling channels are available. In New Zealand power line signalling controls hot water cylinders and storage heaters amounting to 15% of the entire attached grid load.