29 new trains for Transpennine Express ?

[JonathanH]

I think that several on here might quibble with "great".
So we've got Northern tendering for 450 units separately from this relatively small TPE requirement.
Running on the same tracks in the same area. Shouldn't somebody be banging their heads together?

Are you imagining one type of train but with different interiors and different gearing / top speed? The requirements aren't the same despite operating in the same area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you imagining one type of train but with different interiors and different gearing / top speed? The requirements aren't the same despite operating in the same area.

One could certainly imagine an order like the West Midlands Trains Class 730 one, with shorter trains with a suburban interior and a lower top speed for Northern and longer ones with an intercity layout and a higher top speed for TPE, but both being the same basic tri-mode or whatever they're after, or even some being EMU and some tri-mode.

I'm unconvinced that end doors work well for TPE due to the peak overcrowding which is never likely to be completely solved because there's so much suppressed demand on the M62 instead (we have after all gone from single overcrowded 185s to double ones and 80x that are almost as bad). Doors at quarters on a 24m vehicle would work better and still gives a long distance type feel.

 

[Grumpy]

Are you imagining one type of train but with different interiors and different gearing / top speed? The requirements aren't the same despite operating in the same area.

Basically, yes.

I'm not sure the requirements are really significantly different. Northern ordered 195's with 2+2 seating and without end doors. Which is fundamentally the same as the 185 and 170's which were fine for TPE services

 

[Bletchleyite]

Basically, yes.

I'm not sure the requirements are really significantly different. Northern ordered 195's with 2+2 seating and without end doors. Which is fundamentally the same as the 185 and 170's which were fine for TPE services

Indeed. End doors aren't optimal for TPE anyway, it has major turnover of passengers at several stations along the way, which works about as well with end doors as a single-door bus does on a route with a lot of turnover. Quarters (rather than thirds as per most of the CAF kit) would work best, giving a long central section for flexible layout, but quicker loading and unloading and the doors as a standing area.

 

[RobShipway]

One could certainly imagine an order like the West Midlands Trains Class 730 one, with shorter trains with a suburban interior and a lower top speed for Northern and longer ones with an intercity layout and a higher top speed for TPE, but both being the same basic tri-mode or whatever they're after, or even some being EMU and some tri-mode.

I'm unconvinced that end doors work well for TPE due to the peak overcrowding which is never likely to be completely solved because there's so much suppressed demand on the M62 instead (we have after all gone from single overcrowded 185s to double ones and 80x that are almost as bad). Doors at quarters on a 24m vehicle would work better and still gives a long distance type feel.

I would personally think that the trains could come from the same family, but have different body over the chassis and seating for which ever is required. That is why I do wonder whether both TPE and Northern trains will be CAF Civity trains. The TPE trains might be more of the class 397, but with tri-mode power and lengthened carriages with Northern getting the body of class 195/331 again with Tri-mode power, but with different Top Speed.

However, the lengthened class 397 would not have end doors totally, but have similar doors to the class 395 units.

 

[deltic08]

Not all TPE services will be stoppers.

Obviously. I only mentioned stoppers needed to be lower geared.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Obviously. I only mentioned stoppers needed to be lower geared.

So that's more for Northern than TPE.

 

[deltic08]

Also depends on how many motors (and how powerful) are put on the train.

These days modern ac motors and power electronics could give rapid acceleration if geared for 75mph or 125mph.

However on damp Pennine tracks with steep gradients, low gearing and lightweight could easily lead to wheel spin. Installing enough power wont be a problem, getting it down onto the rails for quick pullaways in poor weather could be.

Wouldn't that apply to 125mph trains if as you say they accelerate as fast as 75mph ones?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2023 ==

Modern motors and final drives have made gearing far less important.

Indeed, a Shinkansen trainset will leave most British trains in the dust despite its ~170-220mph top speed.

How many axles are powered compared to UK trains? How many hp/ton?

 

[HSTEd]

How many axles are powered compared to UK trains? How many hp/ton?

Well the traditional Shinkansen setup is at least 75% of axles motored.
Some trains might have 16 cars with 56 axles motored out of 64.

And they clearly have lots of horsepower per tonne to achieve high speed operation, but that also provides them their stunning low(er) speed acceleration performance.

The Class 395 is the best example of this design philosophy in the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, the lengthened class 397 would not have end doors totally, but have similar doors to the class 395 units.

TBH, assuming they aren't going for low floor (though I wish they would), the 24m Aventra body would be perfect. Ideally the gangwayed version - that would limit to 110, but it's only the ECML services that need 125 anyway, isn't it, and the 802s aren't going in the bin.

Not been on one yet but I have very high hopes for the LNR 5-car Aventra, and if they are as good as I think they will be then a tri-mode version of that with some proper First Class at one end would be ideal for TPE's "fast regional express" operation.

 

[YorkRailFan]

TBH, assuming they aren't going for low floor (though I wish they would), the 24m Aventra body would be perfect. Ideally the gangwayed version - that would limit to 110, but it's only the ECML services that need 125 anyway, isn't it, and the 802s aren't going in the bin.

Not been on one yet but I have very high hopes for the LNR 5-car Aventra, and if they are as good as I think they will be then a tri-mode version of that with some proper First Class at one end would be ideal for TPE's "fast regional express" operation.

Perhaps 802s can stay for ECML services with these Aventras running to Hull, Scarborough and possibly Saltburn (despite using the ECML between York and Northallerton.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps 802s can stay for ECML services with these Aventras running to Hull, Scarborough and possibly Saltburn (despite using the ECML between York and Northallerton.)

A service pattern that involved a couple of "true InterCity" Liverpool to Newcastle expresses* an hour using 802s and everything else picking up the more local stops using Aventras would seem a really quite good fit to me.

* Say Lime St, Piccadilly Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle only. Or if you have to do Chester le Street, then half there and half at Darlo.

 

[YorkRailFan]

* Say Lime St, Piccadilly, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle only. Or if you have to do Chester le Street, then half there and half at Darlo.

Are you suggesting sending it via Warrington, Oxford Road and then Guide Bridge as opposed to via Victoria?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you suggesting sending it via Warrington, Oxford Road and then Guide Bridge as opposed to via Victoria?

No, I was just being thick. I did of course mean Victoria.

 

[YorkRailFan]

No, I was just being thick. I did of course mean Victoria.

I did think that that was adding a lot of likely unnecessary time and complexity to the journey.

 

[RobShipway]

TBH, assuming they aren't going for low floor (though I wish they would), the 24m Aventra body would be perfect. Ideally the gangwayed version - that would limit to 110, but it's only the ECML services that need 125 anyway, isn't it, and the 802s aren't going in the bin.

Not been on one yet but I have very high hopes for the LNR 5-car Aventra, and if they are as good as I think they will be then a tri-mode version of that with some proper First Class at one end would be ideal for TPE's "fast regional express" operation.

Indeed, but I believe that the trains ordered should be low floor, but I doubt that the new LNER Civity trains will be and also doubt that trains ordered for TPE or Northern will be either. I do believe that you can have low floor trains, but still have similar doors on the carriages to class 395 units.

For more local trains, the units have to be such that they have a gangway between units when coupled together, even if they are 5 car trains.

 

[D365]

I do believe that you can have low floor trains, but still have similar doors on the carriages to class 395 units.

I'm not so sure. Look at the Stadler units - none of them manage it.

For more local trains, the units have to be such that they have a gangway between units when coupled together, even if they are 5 car trains.

Where is this requirement mandated?

 

[DanNCL]

As 185 replacements these only need a 100mph top speed.
I note that the rebuilt Huddersfield station will have 200m long platforms. Leeds, Piccadilly, Victoria, Lime Street, York, Hull and Scarborough already have long enough platforms. If we assume that the hourly Airport service is either curtailed or worked by 802s, these new trains could run on the TPE core in a 200m formation. My idea would be for 100mph units with end gangways formed of 4x 24m vehicles or 5x 20m vehicles, which can run in pairs on busier services.

I'm not so sure. Look at the Stadler units - none of them manage it.

A 395 door layout is possible with level boarding. End doors however aren’t.

 

[RobShipway]

I'm not so sure. Look at the Stadler units - none of them manage it.

Where is this requirement mandated?

It is not mandated for the local units to have end gangeways. However, it makes more sense if they did in the same way that class 730 units, 196 & 197 units do.

As 185 replacements these only need a 100mph top speed.
I note that the rebuilt Huddersfield station will have 200m long platforms. Leeds, Piccadilly, Victoria, Lime Street, York, Hull and Scarborough already have long enough platforms. If we assume that the hourly Airport service is either curtailed or worked by 802s, these new trains could run on the TPE core in a 200m formation. My idea would be for 100mph units with end gangways formed of 4x 24m vehicles or 5x 20m vehicles, which can run in pairs on busier services.


A 395 door layout is possible with level boarding. End doors however aren’t.

Indeed level boarding is possible with 395 layout. Indeed I would say that class many new trains are not compliant to disability laws in the fact that as per the website https://www.levelboarding.org.uk/ many of them are such that dangerous ramps still need to be used for disabled people to enter these trains. The alternative to level boarding trains, is to make the platforms level boarding as has been done in Japan as per
https://www.reddit.com/r/next****in...evel_boarding_facility_at_japanese/?rdt=55166.

Now admittedly level boarding gets difficult where more than one type of train is used such as the Brighton mainline and routes covered by TPE services where other TOC's also provide services. But that is something that needs to be looked into what is possible, which I know has been discussed many times in threads on these forums.

 

[43096]

It is not mandated for the local units to have end gangeways. However, it makes more sense if they did in the same way that class 730 units, 196 & 197 units do.

I’m totally unconvinced that between unit gangways are worth it. Given how often you see trains with passengers standing at one end and a plethora of empty seats further down the train, they clearly don’t get used. That’s despite guards who make announcements to say there are seats free further down, or PIS displays saying the same - and still the dopey normals don’t move.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m totally unconvinced that between unit gangways are worth it. Given how often you see trains with passengers standing at one end and a plethora of empty seats further down the train, they clearly don’t get used. That’s despite guards who make announcements to say there are seats free further down, or PIS displays saying the same - and still the dopey normals don’t move.

The advantages of them are more that staff can get through, specifically those checking tickets* and the trolley, assuming TPE would be persisting with these. Also useful if all toilets are faulty in one half.

* Unless your TOC has a silly rule about not being in the other unit, but not all do.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The advantages of them are more that staff can get through, specifically those checking tickets* and the trolley, assuming TPE would be persisting with these. Also useful if all toilets are faulty in one half.

* Unless your TOC has a silly rule about not being in the other unit, but not all do.

Also allows passengers to move forward carriages in the event of overcrowding or short platform.

 

[Grumpy]

TBH, assuming they aren't going for low floor (though I wish they would), the 24m Aventra body would be perfect. Ideally the gangwayed version - that would limit to 110, but it's only the ECML services that need 125 anyway, isn't it, and the 802s aren't going in the bin.

On the assumption that TransPennine electrification may eventually be completed throughout, then it would presumably be more economical to operate Newcastle-Liverpool with a simple emu and transfer the 802's elsewhere.
Dropping from 125mph max to 110 is only going to make a few minutes difference, some of which might be recovered as a result of better door arrangements. Which is why of course Virgin would have done better buying 170's rather than Voyagers for NE-SW etc

 

[gingertom]

Alstom with either a variant of 720, or Irish Coradia

isn't the Coradia the 180? Very nice interiors, but under the hood leaves a lot to be desired. And we don't need the thermal events!

 

[Krokodil]

For more local trains, the units have to be such that they have a gangway between units when coupled together, even if they are 5 car trains.

I don't think that Northern are fans. At one point they even had a rule that 150/2 gangways should remain shut.

As 185 replacements these only need a 100mph top speed.

Only if they are direct replacements rather than the top of a cascade. If you were going for a unit designed primarily for electric operation (so no need for as much hill climbing on diesel) you'd stick them on the Liverpool - Newcastles and redeploy the 802s on the South route.

 

[cslusarc]

Only if they are direct replacements rather than the top of a cascade. If you were going for a unit designed primarily for electric operation (so no need for as much hill climbing on diesel) you'd stick them on the Liverpool - Newcastles and redeploy the 802s on the South route.

I do think that once the Transpennine North route is electrified then the class 802s could
be cascaded to Cross Country or another InterCity operator. I think class 185s will need to operate the Transpennnine South until it is electrified too.

 

[sprinterguy]

isn't the Coradia the 180? Very nice interiors, but under the hood leaves a lot to be desired. And we don't need the thermal events!

The 180 is a small, and superseded, part of the larger Alstom Coradia family of trains that has seen continued development for use in a range of variants across Europe and beyond.

I'm not aware of any Coradias in Ireland, I'm not sure if Snow1964 is referring to the X'trapolis units that are currently being procured for the DART+ network. 5-car units, some of which will be battery-electric:

Alstom to provide new state-of-the-art train-charging infrastructure for Irish Rail (IE) in Drogheda, Ireland

Alstom has been awarded a contract to provide a charging facility for new Battery Electric Multiple Unit (BEMU) trains

www.alstom.com

11 August 2023 – Alstom, global leader in smart and sustainable mobility, today announced that it has been awarded a contract to provide a charging facility for Irish Rail’s new Battery Electric Multiple Unit (BEMU) trains that will operate between Drogheda, Dublin City Centre and beyond.

The fast-charging infrastructure on two platforms and one siding at Drogheda will be installed by end of 2024 to enable new battery-electric DART+ trains that will enter service in 2025, to operate to and from Drogheda in advance of planned electrification of the line, and to be recharged during service turnaround at Drogheda.

 

[D365]

The 180 is a small, and superseded, part of the larger Alstom Coradia family of trains that has seen continued development for use in a range of variants across Europe and beyond.

”Family” can mean anything - does the Class 175/180 have much at all in common with European Coradias?

 

[sprinterguy]

”Family” can mean anything - does the Class 175/180 have much at all in common with European Coradias?

Very little I suspect. Aesthetically there's certainly no familial resemblance.

 

[RobShipway]

”Family” can mean anything - does the Class 175/180 have much at all in common with European Coradias?

Just like the class 195-197, 331 are from the same family as the class 397 units.