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They clearly don't always; however, in this case the fares are way out of kilter for the distances covered.
This is the result of there only being an "Any Permitted" fare for the journey to York (which is valid via Leeds and priced accordingly). Advance fares have been set by blind reference to this fare, with no account taken of the actual distance covered.
That being said, passengers from Manchester to Huddersfield might consider £12.20 a cheap fare given the 'tunnel tax' they pay...
They clearly don't always; however, in this case the fares are way out of kilter for the distances covered.
This is the result of there only being an "Any Permitted" fare for the journey to York (which is valid via Leeds and priced accordingly). Advance fares have been set by blind reference to this fare, with no account taken of the actual distance covered.
That being said, passengers from Manchester to Huddersfield might consider £12.20 a cheap fare given the 'tunnel tax' they pay...
It's also, I think, because fares were kept lower in the former Metropolitan county areas. York wasn't in one, which is why fares from West Yorkshire to York are higher than West Yorkshire to Greater Manchester (or South Yorkshire) for a comparable distance. You could argue that the fares should be equalised, but we know they will be increased rather than decreased...
Am I right in thinking that advance fares for this service have been calculated reasonably between headline TPE stations served also by the route via Leeds, but that between the new stations (Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton and Castleford) and any others, we have anomalies like this?
And it has been pointed out that although 185s will carry first class accommodation through all stations, passengers at Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton and Castleford are prohibited from making use of it.
Castleford to Manchester Anytime Day Single £26.40, Off-Peak Return £27.00 (valid from 0830 in both directions), Anytime Short Distance Return £38.30
Castleford to York Off-Peak Day Single £19.20 (valid from 0930), Anytime Day Single £20.50, Off-Peak Day Return £19.30 (valid from 0930), Anytime Day Return £21.90
Castleford to York will involve using part of the ECML and add more traffic at the south end of York Station. I would imagine York will be a popular journey from Castleford too. In a privatised world everything needs to be paid for.
Conversely, looking at walk-up fares:
Castleford to York Off-Peak Day Single £19.20 (valid from 0930), Anytime Day Single £20.50, Off-Peak Day Return £19.30 (valid from 0930), Anytime Day Return £21.90
Those are ridiculously high fares for a relatively short journey on a direct train between Castleford and York. On a direct train from nearby Pontefract Baghill to York, the Day Return fare is only £11.80, although it’s a very sparse and not really usable service, but similar distance.
I was actually going to say that the maximum profit has to be extracted but I thought "everything needs to be paid for" covered it. On the plus side having a direct service to York will probably bring big economic benefits for Cas Vegas.
It's also, I think, because fares were kept lower in the former Metropolitan county areas. York wasn't in one, which is why fares from West Yorkshire to York are higher than West Yorkshire to Greater Manchester (or South Yorkshire) for a comparable distance. You could argue that the fares should be equalised, but we know they will be increased rather than decreased...
The fare to Manchester is an advance, so unaffected by this. West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire co-operated on fares, Manchester didn't - there was always a jump as soon as you crossed that border.
The fare to Manchester is an advance, so unaffected by this. West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire co-operated on fares, Manchester didn't - there was always a jump as soon as you crossed that border.
The difference is Standedge Tunnel, though I confess to not wholly understanding why the cut-off point is either side of it rather than on the other side of it..
The difference is Standedge Tunnel, though I confess to not wholly understanding why the cut-off point is either side of it rather than on the other side of it..
No, there's a jump (not quite as big, but far bigger than going to South Yorkshire) on the line through Rochdale, too. I used to live on that line, but have still only been through the bizarrely named Summit tunnel a handful of times. It costs about the same from Halifax to York as to Manchester, though York is 50% further away.
Maybe TPE will introduce a newer cheaper "Via Sherburn" fare for Castleford* - York (*etc) which is designed for the new service, rather than being priced as going via Leeds.
I seem to recall similar happening in the past when new services have been introduced, creating new shorter/direct links but the fares not being updated to reflect the new link. Romsey to Eastleigh springs to mind, which at one stage was priced as going via Southampton ignoring the Chandlers Ford line being reopened to regular passenger use.
Maybe TPE will introduce a newer cheaper "Via Sherburn" fare for Castleford* - York (*etc) which is designed for the new service, rather than being priced as going via Leeds.
I seem to recall similar happening in the past when new services have been introduced, creating new shorter/direct links but the fares not being updated to reflect the new link. Romsey to Eastleigh springs to mind, which at one stage was priced as going via Southampton ignoring the Chandlers Ford line being reopened to regular passenger use.
Now this, rather than blindly defending the existing fares as if they can’t possibly be unjustified, explains a lot. Has anyone (including fare setters) even considered the vastly shorter distance by rail from Wakefield/Normanton/Castleford to Church Fenton/York via Burton Salmon Junction than via Leeds or the implication of this on the obvious capacity constraints at Leeds?
Here we are seeing the line between Castleford and Burton Salmon Junction reopened to passengers, with the other line from Pontefract Baghill to Burton Salmon Junction already seeing a similar service for a lower price. The fact that this is a separate station for services to York, unlike at Castleford, forces fare setters to assume passengers will not be travelling via Leeds.
But neither of the examples in the OP are grossly inflated. They both offer better deals than the open single fares.
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I'm not sure what the objection is to the Advance fares listed. Such fares have always been largely driven by a commercial calculation on what will be increase revenue. I think most people would far rather have inconsistencies from this than pay more for the sake of an abstract notion of 'fairness'.
I don't know how many services there will be but the amount of money spent on the station suggests there will be quite a few. The history of rail reopenings is that they usually outperform feasibility studies by a large factor so if a lot of passengers travel on the new service it will prompt improvements to the service.
In the late 1970s there was only one DMU service on Saturday morning from Sunderland to York and I believe that Northallerton - Eaglescliffe was closed to passengers for a few years. Now there are regular well filled Grand Central services from Sunderland to Kings Cross. Provide services and people will use them.
I don't know how many services there will be but the amount of money spent on the station suggests there will be quite a few. The history of rail reopenings is that they usually outperform feasibility studies by a large factor so if a lot of passengers travel on the new service it will prompt improvements to the service.
In the late 1970s there was only one DMU service on Saturday morning from Sunderland to York and I believe that Northallerton - Eaglescliffe was closed to passengers for a few years. Now there are regular well filled Grand Central services from Sunderland to Kings Cross. Provide services and people will use them.
From the timetable change in December there will be 4 a day Mon-Sat running Manchester Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Castleford - York instead of the current Huddersfield to Castleford service, so making travel to Manchester much easier too and cutting half the time off the current Huddersfield - Castleford Rail Replacement Buses. Not quite the draw to Huddersfield as the previous hourly all day service, but far quicker than any other public transport offering.
It's not the best service in the world, but it works for someone going to work 0900-1730 in Manchester. Last one back from York is 1658, though.
From the timetable change in December there will be 4 a day Mon-Sat running Manchester Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Castleford - York instead of the current Huddersfield to Castleford service, so making travel to Manchester much easier too and cutting half the time off the current Huddersfield - Castleford Rail Replacement Buses. Not quite the draw to Huddersfield as the previous hourly all day service, but far quicker than any other public transport offering.
It's not the best service in the world, but it works for someone going to work 0900-1730 in Manchester. Last one back from York is 1658, though.
Now this, rather than blindly defending the existing fares as if they can’t possibly be unjustified, explains a lot. Has anyone (including fare setters) even considered the vastly shorter distance by rail from Wakefield/Normanton/Castleford to Church Fenton/York via Burton Salmon Junction than via Leeds or the implication of this on the obvious capacity constraints at Leeds?
Here we are seeing the line between Castleford and Burton Salmon Junction reopened to passengers, with the other line from Pontefract Baghill to Burton Salmon Junction already seeing a similar service for a lower price. The fact that this is a separate station for services to York, unlike at Castleford, forces fare setters to assume passengers will not be travelling via Leeds.
It's not a line reopening as such, as trains operate via this route every day.
But this is a new calling pattern, and a direct service between York & Castleford has not operated for many decades, and therefore a cheaper fare should exist.
Yes, some people argue against this as they believe there should only be one fare for every possible journey, in order to keep things 'simple', but such people should be ignored; they are not living in the real world.
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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/huddersfield-wakefield-castleford.223256/ I used this service a lot in early 2020 and had noticed a steady increase in passenger numbers since the extension to Castleford. It would be really useful if it could either be restored on...
www.railforums.co.uk
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Note that contractually, Ulleskelf to Castleford is valid via York.
This is because the shortest route by scheduled services is just over 27 miles via Leeds, or 30 miles via York (avoiding Leeds) As the difference is within 3 miles, travel via York is permitted (providing the journey between York and Castleford is via Sherburn, not Leeds)
However, booking engines will not offer itineraries because the distance travelled on the direct train via York is not in the electronic data.
This means that if a passenger purchases an Ulleskelf to Castleford ticket, they could legitimately use it via York, and it would be permitted to start short at York, to undercut the ludicrous York to Castleford fare. If questioned, the passenger could state that the distance they are actually travelling is within 3 miles of the shortest route.
It's not a line reopening as such, as trains operate via this route every day.
But this is a new calling pattern, and a direct service between York & Castleford has not operated for many decades, and therefore a cheaper fare should exist.
Yes, some people argue against this as they believe there should only be one fare for every possible journey, in order to keep things 'simple', but such people should be ignored; they are not living in the real world.
I’m aware that we’re not talking as if new infrastructure has been constructed (except the 2nd platform and footbridge at Castleford) but this line between Castleford and Burton Salmon Junction is effectively reopening to passengers with the addition of this new calling pattern between Castleford and York.
Surely it is in the interests of simplicity to allow passengers to make journeys to York and beyond without having to change at Leeds.
The other question is whether first class fares should be offered on this service from Castleford.
I’m aware that we’re not talking as if new infrastructure has been constructed (except the 2nd platform and footbridge at Castleford) but this line between Castleford and Burton Salmon Junction is effectively reopening to passengers with the addition of this new calling pattern between Castleford and York.
The line between Castleford and Burton Junction has daily services; the difference is that hitherto these exclusively ran non-stop between York and Leeds, not calling at Castleford.
What's changed is that you can now do Castleford to York without going via Leeds.
There should be a full range of appropriately priced fares between York and Castleford (and other relevant stations at each end).
Given the nature of the National Rail network, it is of no surprise that this hasn't been done; indeed, if this had all been thought out and implemented in time for the service to operate, I would have been pretty shocked to be honest!
The line between Castleford and Burton Junction has daily services; the difference is that hitherto these exclusively ran non-stop between York and Leeds, not calling at Castleford.
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