April to June 2023 Passenger numbers released

[Annetts key]

Or you could forget the railway and drive instead. Cheaper, faster, more flexible and you don't have to put up with other passengers who haven't washed or will not shut up.

It's what most people do, after all.

I take you have not enjoyed two hours of comfort on your own in your car for a journey that should take around 35 minutes by train then?

We have (and are still trying) to solve traffic congestion by building new roads, widening roads, upgrading roads, making them ‘smart’ and no doubt other schemes. None of which can completely solve the problem, as increased road capacity almost always leads to either moving the congestion elsewhere, or encouraging more people to drive, which then just makes the congestion worse further along the road.

It’s not perfect, but much better public transport is considered to be a better solution in many cases. The railways are part of this. As are the LU, various metro systems and buses.

There are obviously also times when private motor vehicles are more suitable. But it’s absolutely certain, the private car is not the solution if individuals are unable to drive, or don’t want to suffer road congestion.

 

[Krokodil]

Or you could forget the railway and drive instead. Cheaper, faster, more flexible and you don't have to put up with other passengers who haven't washed or will not shut up.

It's what most people do, after all.

I have no desire to spend long periods of time strapped to my seat in an endless traffic jam, paying thousands of pounds a year in fuel, insurance and maintenance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have no desire to spend long periods of time strapped to my seat in an endless traffic jam

The vast majority of the time this isn't my experience of motoring, particularly now we have traffic sat-nav.

 

[railfan99]

The vast majority of the time this isn't my experience of motoring, particularly now we have traffic sat-nav.

During my Eurailpass in September 2023, a mid-30s lady from Chesterfield and who worked near Manchester Oxford Rd station said she'd given up driving on the route because the last 'six miles took an hour' in the morning peak (presumably midweek given WFH on Mondays).

 

[Bletchleyite]

During my Eurailpass in September 2023, a mid-30s lady from Chesterfield and who worked near Manchester Oxford Rd station said she'd given up driving on the route because the last 'six miles took an hour' in the morning peak (presumably midweek given WFH on Mondays).

That there are places and times when driving is grim (primarily into large cities in the morning and out of them in the evening) does not make all or even most driving grim.

 

[LowLevel]

That there are places and times when driving is grim (primarily into large cities in the morning and out of them in the evening) does not make all or even most driving grim.

I find it more and more so. My drive into work (Nottingham) from a medium sized town nearby used to be tolerable even at peak times.

Now getting the mile out of my town on to the open road can take 15 minutes and the City Council in Nottingham decided to channel all of the traffic down one road so as to pedestrianise the area around the failed Broadmarsh project so it gridlocks at peak times. Around the same time they decided to allow developers to build a load of student housing and close one of the 2 lanes to make a safe system of work for their staff working around the building site.

The area around the station is not helped by the stupid drop off bay with taxi drivers queueing up on a red route to get into it causing tail backs over a junction, and then forcing their way out to turn right across 4 lanes of traffic to leave after the central reservation was removed. Shunts are common.

I absolutely hate it and even during the middle of the day it gets worse and worse and stresses me out.

Christmas is a nightmare and driving in at 1600 or so can take 90 minutes to cover 13 miles because of the poor timing and location of traffic lights blocking junctions with tail backs. One year I actually had to give up and drive along the pavement to a side street to get around because the light timing was allowing no traffic from my direction to pass the junction - another traffic light 200 yards ahead was on red whenever my side was on green.

If I never had to drive to work I'd be happy.
 

 

[12LDA28C]

Or you could forget the railway and drive instead. Cheaper, faster, more flexible and you don't have to put up with other passengers who haven't washed or will not shut up.

It's what most people do, after all.

Not much good if you want a drink, or are travelling into central London for a day or evening out where parking charges / ULEZ charge and congestion makes the car a very unattractive option. Unsurprisingly, many people take the train, particularly at weekends.

 

[Krokodil]

The vast majority of the time this isn't my experience of motoring, particularly now we have traffic sat-nav.

You're still strapped in, I hope! I just prefer the convenience of having someone else drive me and being able to eat/drink/sleep or go to the toilet whenever I like.

 

[The exile]

Not much good if you want a drink, or are travelling into central London for a day or evening out where parking charges / ULEZ charge and congestion makes the car a very unattractive option. Unsurprisingly, many people take the train, particularly at weekends.

Not just London. Britain’s worst traffic congestion is frequently to be found outside the capital.

 

[The Ham]

Or you could forget the railway and drive instead. Cheaper, faster, more flexible and you don't have to put up with other passengers who haven't washed or will not shut up.

It's what most people do, after all.

10% of all travel (in miles) are done by rail, if we were to do away with trains the roads could not cope.

Just because the majority of people do something or doesn't mean that it should be what everyone does.

Arguably if we (nationally) could reduce or car use by 10% then the busiest days would be similar in terms of traffic congestion as is seen in the school holidays.

WFH should have been able to help in reducing traffic - which is doesn't appear to have made much difference. Not only from people driving less days each week, but also from the economics of car ownership (£3,500 a year in average cost is £16/day for a 5 day working week but it jumps to £20/day for 4 days a week and £26/day for 3 days a week). Whilst the economics may not be great if you're a single person but for a family shifting to one less car (especially if it's a couple who both work 3 days in the office and the can mostly share one car for most of their getting to work).

Unfortunately too many see car ownership as essential (even though over 80% live in urban areas and less than 10% have a mobility disability justifying a blue badge).

A classic example is when it's walk to school week and the number of cars fall significantly. That's not too say that they could always travel to school like that week, however it does show that many more could more than they do (even if that was once a week (as school traffic is typically 10% of peak travel, if everyone who drove to school took another mode on average once a week it would reduce overall traffic by 1%)

 

[43066]

But wage growth still hasn't kept up with inflation.

Again, that’s true, but it doesn’t mean that fares haven’t been cut in real terms, or that there isn’t scope to increase fares further without reducing revenue.

And on a railway which is now heavily dependant on leisure travel, perception is everything.

I suspect the perception problem is coming more from unreliability than from high fares.

There are still plenty of commuters, and plenty of leisure travellers into London for whom the railway has no realistic competitors. Let’s not forget the railway’s revenue remains heavily focussed around London and the south east.

If I never had to drive to work I'd be happy.
 

Welcome to my world. Commuting by train (albeit requiring shift swaps, and requesting the occasional taxi from work) is ideal. My local station is a ten minute walk from home and if the railway sits down causing me to be late, work can’t really moan!

(I realise this is highly depot specific and at our place there’s probably more leeway given to London crews).

 

[chris_in_salop]

10% of all travel (in miles) are done by rail, if we were to do away with trains the roads could not cope.

Switching this round, I'm not sure that the railway could cope if many of these drivers switched from road to rail. Can you imagine another million passenger journeys on Cross Country? It would be carnage.

 

[robert thomas]

Switching this round, I'm not sure that the railway could cope if many of these drivers switched from road to rail. Can you imagine another million passenger journeys on Cross Country? It would be carnage.

I suspect that a high percentage of car journeys are for less than 5 miles from home for journeys to work kids to school and shopping.

 

[yorksrob]

Again, that’s true, but it doesn’t mean that fares haven’t been cut in real terms, or that there isn’t scope to increase fares further without reducing revenue.



I suspect the perception problem is coming more from unreliability than from high fares.

There are still plenty of commuters, and plenty of leisure travellers into London for whom the railway has no realistic competitors. Let’s not forget the railway’s revenue remains heavily focussed around London and the south east.

One can never say never, but I think they'd be pushing it if they tried to raise fares more.

I think that there's a clear perception of high fares, however the unreliability element has definitely worsened over the last couple of years as well.

It's interesting that the South East is still the focus of revenue on a railway where 50% of revenue is leisure oriented. It suggests that rather than being the dry old commuter area, NSE is actually pretty good at attracting discretionary leisure travel and revenue. Could it be that its attractive Network railcard and groupsave offers are the clear way forward for the rest of the country !

 

[The exile]

I suspect that a high percentage of car journeys are for less than 5 miles from home for journeys to work kids to school and shopping.

virtually every rail journey generates a further journey (by foot or other transport mine) at each end. Must car journeys do not. This alone means that statistically, rail will never account for more than one third of journeys.

 

[The Ham]

Switching this round, I'm not sure that the railway could cope if many of these drivers switched from road to rail. Can you imagine another million passenger journeys on Cross Country? It would be carnage.

An extra million passengers on XC (22x fleet only) would be an extra 45 passengers per diagram, so whilst not great probably manageable. Especially given that there's a good chance that less than half that number would be in the train at any one time - quite possibly even allowing for some flowers being in higher demand than others.

Also, if the last quarter's XC usage was the same for each quarter of a year the annual usage wouldn't quite be 30 million when pre pandemic it was 40 million, so could increase by 10 million fairly easily

You could then fairly easily increase the capacity of the 22x fleet by ordering 1:1 replacement by 800/0, which would give you an uplift in capacity of about 45% within the 22x fleet which would probably be good for another 10 million passengers (assuming 20 million of the 40 million use the 22x fleet for travel on XC).

Anyway, most car travel is fairly short distances (71% of all trips are less than 5 miles, whilst this is 60% of all car trips and just 9% of all rail trips) where rail isn't likely to absorb much of the (say) 10% reduction in road use (which would be about 8% of all miles traveled).

The primary way we are likely to meet that is a mix of less travel, more walking, more cycling, more bus travel and more rail travel.

The split by age is interesting with those under 40 being below average for numbers of trips by car Vs other modes, whilst over 40 sees the use of cars noticeable above average.

 

[al78]

I suspect that a high percentage of car journeys are for less than 5 miles from home for journeys to work kids to school and shopping.

Many of those journeys could likely be substituted with foot, bicycle or bus, unfortunately the population in my home town behaves like there is a local rule that you MUST use a car for as many journeys as possible, which is why the town is frequently rammed with traffic and congestion has been getting worse over the years (not helped by badly phased traffic lights). I suspect this is the same across the country. Individual actions and collective consequences.

 

[railfan99]

...are travelling into central London for a day or evening out where parking charges / ULEZ charge and congestion makes the car a very unattractive option....

Out of interest, for a medium sized UK model of passenger car, if one wanted to park for the day in central London from say 0830 to 1930 (including enjoying a drink after work with colleagues) what would be a typical parking fee and ULEZ charge, say if one was coming from Birmingham.

Are there also tolls on major highways/freeways? (Apologies, with the exception of short taxi trips within localities such as Crewe and a few route buses, I have never travelled by road in England).

 

[JamesT]

Out of interest, for a medium sized UK model of passenger car, if one wanted to park for the day in central London from say 0830 to 1930 (including enjoying a drink after work with colleagues) what would be a typical parking fee and ULEZ charge, say if one was coming from Birmingham.

Are there also tolls on major highways/freeways? (Apologies, with the exception of short taxi trips within localities such as Crewe and a few route buses, I have never travelled by road in England).

Picking a car park relatively at random, APCOA run one in Covent Garden. Prebooking for tomorrow for the times stated comes at £24.50 plus a £1.49 booking fee. ULEZ would be £12.50. So £38.49.
Birmingham to London is of the order of 120 miles. Cost of running a car is variable, but if we take HMRC’s lower rate of 25p/mile, it would be £60 for the return trip.

There are relatively few toll roads in the UK. The only major road built to be one is the M6 Toll, a motorway to relieve the M6 on the North side of Birmingham. Otherwise it’s generally river crossings, where the tolls are used to recoup the cost of the bridge/tunnel. Though there has been a trend to remove tolls. https://www.gov.uk/uk-toll-roads has a list.

 

[railfan99]

There are relatively few toll roads in the UK. The only major road built to be one is the M6 Toll, a motorway to relieve the M6 on the North side of Birmingham. Otherwise it’s generally river crossings, where the tolls are used to recoup the cost of the bridge/tunnel. Though there has been a trend to remove tolls. https://www.gov.uk/uk-toll-roads has a list.

Thank you. Extremely expensive: GBP100 return. Way above comparable costs in Oz: a Sydney car park from 0830 to 2000 hours on a weekday was A$26 (GBP13). No equivalent of ULEZ. We have toll roads in the three major east coast cities. Petrol is cheaper in my nation (though not nearly as cheap as in USA).

Brings home why so many go by rail in the UK. I assume possible traffic congestion as one gets closer to London may also be an inhibitor.

If the Humber Bridge is the large suspension bridge linking Barton-on-Humber to Hull, I was on a route bus in September for the usual discounted GBP2 single fare.

Travelling around England, I noted bad traffic jams in cities like Leeds - but was on rail, so observing as one passed over a one or two lane each way road.

 

[Annetts key]

It should be mentioned that a lot of the roads and bridges which are toll roads are privately owned. A lot of these have always been privately owned, hence you are obviously paying for the maintenance cost plus profit for the private company. For some, an element may be the original construction cost.

Some of the bridges and tunnels were funded and built by private companies but are part of the main road network. These are government schemes rather than independent company schemes. Some may revert to having their toll charges reduced or removed once the construction cost has been paid back. The M4 and M48 bridges over the Bristol channel/River Severn are examples where this has happened.

Whereas, the rest of the mainland road network is government owned and funded by general taxation. The main roads (such as most, but not all motorways and the important ‘A’ truck roads) are the responsibility of central government. The rest are the responsibility of regional or local government.

For the vast majority of road journeys, you will not have to pay any tolls. However, there is a tax on having a road vehicle, plus a tax on fuel for road vehicles.

It’s not just London that has bad traffic congestion. Other cities also have problems with traffic congestion.

 

[al78]

It’s not just London that has bad traffic congestion. Other cities also have problems with traffic congestion.

They also tend to be populated with people who try to resist any attempt to tackle the congestion, whether by road pricing (discouragement, incentivising people to ask themselves do they REALLY need to drive) or by improving local public transport (which can involve reallocation or road space).

Really what people want is for everyone else to reduce their car mileage so they can drive on free flowing roads.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2023 ==

Picking a car park relatively at random, APCOA run one in Covent Garden. Prebooking for tomorrow for the times stated comes at £24.50 plus a £1.49 booking fee. ULEZ would be £12.50. So £38.49.
Birmingham to London is of the order of 120 miles. Cost of running a car is variable, but if we take HMRC’s lower rate of 25p/mile, it would be £60 for the return trip.

There are relatively few toll roads in the UK. The only major road built to be one is the M6 Toll, a motorway to relieve the M6 on the North side of Birmingham. Otherwise it’s generally river crossings, where the tolls are used to recoup the cost of the bridge/tunnel. Though there has been a trend to remove tolls. https://www.gov.uk/uk-toll-roads has a list.

Not every car is subject to ULEZ (mine isn't), and I think it is mostly drivers of older cars that pay.

 

[JamesT]

Not every car is subject to ULEZ (mine isn't), and I think it is mostly drivers of older cars that pay.

True, post-2005 petrol or post-2015 diesel cars would be fine.

Though, I’ve realised I forgot about the Congestion Charge. That would be £15 to drive into central London, regardless of the emissions level. So the overall cost is about right.

 

[Krokodil]

They also tend to be populated with people who try to resist any attempt to tackle the congestion

Though I note that the London ULEZ extension caused a mass throwing of toys from prams whereas the Clean Air Zones in many other cities have gone almost unnoticed.

True, post-2005 petrol or post-2015 diesel cars would be fine.

Though, I’ve realised I forgot about the Congestion Charge. That would be £15 to drive into central London, regardless of the emissions level. So the overall cost is about right.

Do electric cars pay the CC? I'm sure that they never used to

 

[JamesT]

Do electric cars pay the CC? I'm sure that they never used to

There’s still a 100% discount for battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell, no hybrids any more. Only two more years and the electric car discount will go too.

 

[railfan99]

It's exciting knowing there'll be much more detailed information released (re rail passenger numbers, not toll roads) before Christmas.

On my recent visit, from a couple of lightly patronised stations, I purchased tickets from the conductor to bump up numbers a small amount. I'll be fascinated to see if the sales are recorded.

 

[Snow1964]

It's exciting knowing there'll be much more detailed information released (re rail passenger numbers, not toll roads) before Christmas.

On my recent visit, from a couple of lightly patronised stations, I purchased tickets from the conductor to bump up numbers a small amount. I'll be fascinated to see if the sales are recorded.

There is few months delay, so won't include recent trips.

The numbers using minor stations has a sort of fascination from how few the numbers can be, along with move in ranking.

But it also allows the number crunchers to find stations in wrong category, things like 100th busiest has no disabled access, and no toilets, but a station 250th busiest does etc

 

[The exile]

Though I note that the London ULEZ extension caused a mass throwing of toys from prams whereas the Clean Air Zones in many other cities have gone almost unnoticed.

At national level maybe - but then we all know that at national (English) level only London matters (with an occasional nod to Manchester as, surprise, surprise, that’s where the media people are).

 

[Jamesrob637]

True, post-2005 petrol or post-2015 diesel cars would be fine.

Generally speaking, though there are many early-00s petrols and a few pre-2015 diesels that are fine also.

 

[Class 170101]

A classic example is when it's walk to school week and the number of cars fall significantly. That's not too say that they could always travel to school like that week, however it does show that many more could more than they do (even if that was once a week (as school traffic is typically 10% of peak travel, if everyone who drove to school took another mode on average once a week it would reduce overall traffic by 1%)

I'd say its even more noticeable in the school holidays how easy walking is with fewer cars on the roads taking kids to school.