The Point Pleasant Junction to East Putney spur

[AY1975]

Already discussed in a number of threads in the past such as this one https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-service-from-wimbledon-lul-platform-4.214897/ and this one https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/east-putney-point-pleasant-junction.149900/ is the Point Pleasant Junction to East Putney spur.

AFAIK at present the only regular service trains booked via this route are 2L10 04.51 Basingstoke-Waterloo and 2L77 23.12 Waterloo-Basingstoke on Mondays-Saturdays and 1B01 01.05 Waterloo-Southampton on Sundays. I presume these will continue after the December timetable change.

Looking at the archive of past editions of Passenger Services Over Unusual Lines on the Branch Line Society website at https://www.branchline.uk/PSULdocs.php it would appear that summer 2001 was the first timetable period for which any regular passenger trains were booked to run via this route. AIUI this is to keep up route knowledge in case trains have to be diverted this way, but I wonder why this wasn't considered necessary in BR days or in the early days of privatisation but is nowadays deemed necessary. Presumably in those days having several empty coaching stock workings booked via this route was deemed sufficient to maintain route knowledge.

I believe that Weymouth boat trains were booked via this route from 1953 until 1962, so I would guess that 2001 may have been the first time any service trains regularly used this route for 39 years.

I also seem to recall that in BR days there was the odd freight train booked via this route, although I only ever remember seeing a freight train on it once. It must be many years since any freights used it.

 

[zwk500]

I also seem to recall that in BR days there was the odd freight train booked via this route, although I only ever remember seeing a freight train on it once. It must be many years since any freights used it.

I'd be slightly surprised if freight was allowed onto the line at the same time as the District line was running nowadays. As parcels/Newspaper traffic has all but ceased (especially from Waterloo) and west London freight concentrated on Wembley, the number of opportunities for freight to route over the line would be extremely limited and even if they were routed via Kensington for the SWML it's easier to run via Chertsey as you avoid the flat crossing at Wimbledon.

 

[londonboi]

Lots more trains use the route ECS to and from Wimbledon park depot. Also if the mainline gets issues they can divert trains along that section to get them to Waterloo.
Freight has never ran over it in the 10 years I have drove over it.

 

[30907]

I wonder why this wasn't considered necessary in BR days or in the early days of privatisation but is nowadays deemed necessary. Presumably in those days having several empty coaching stock workings booked via this route was deemed sufficient to maintain route knowledge.

Certainly in the 50s/60s various Up EMU trains were booked that way (eg on summer Saturdays) as well as loads of ECSto and from Wimbledon depot.
The only regular down train across the junction at Wimbledon was the afternoon Clapham Jn to Exeter milk empties, usually a Pacific job.
I suspect route knowledge in those days didn't have to involve proving thatvyou knew the short connection at Wimbledon

I believe that Weymouth boat trains were booked via this route from 1953 until 1962, so I would guess that 2001 may have been the first time any service trains regularly used this route for 39 years.

There were no Weymouth-Waterloo boat trains before 1959, and it would have been an odd choice to access platforms 11-12.
I think regular Summer Saturday use ceased in the mid 60s.

 

[Magdalia]

I have the relevant WTT for 1963, though I'm not very good at reading it.

The nearest there is to a passenger train is the 10.10am excursion Clapham Junction-Portsmouth Harbour running Sundays until 25 August. I can't find a return working, either via Putney or via the main line. This appears as one of the subsequent amendments in the amended 1963 PSUL list though it wasn't in the original version. The amendment suggests this ran for the last time on 25 August 1963.

The main traffic via Putney in the 1963 WTT is ECS moves both to and from Wimbledon Depot. There are a few local parcels trains and a Clapham Junction-Eastleigh perishables.

There are milk empties both from Wimbledon and Morden South to Clapham Junction via Putney and also the main Clapham Junction-Exeter Central milk empties which is timed to take a pilot loco to Wimbledon Park if required.

 

[Snow1964]

There were other special trains that used the spur, I did a Merrymaker from Brockenhurst to Blackpool Illuminations in late 1970s (used the now dismantled flyover going northbound, and remaining spur on return Sunday morning).

In 20 years of commuting (living in Kingston area) had 2 trips during evening peak from Waterloo as diversions via the line when there was problems in Earlsfield area. And only one morning peak diversion (main line was blocked). So unscheduled diversions do happen

 

[507020]

I have actually used the line, making a point of doing it during my last visit to London, which necessitated a very long walk for that time in the morning from West Brompton to Parsons Green for the first District Line service to Wimbledon.

it would appear that summer 2001 was the first timetable period for which any regular passenger trains were booked to run via this route.

This is of course not the case with the line opening in 1889, but consideration has to be given to the Point Pleasant Up Flyover. District line aside, the line is somewhat more useful to SWR in the down direction than the up, despite the conflicts that occur at Point Pleasant Junction and Wimbledon, although if the main line is blocked at Earlsfield, it’s better than nothing.

I also recall that the SR ended service via East Putney as a WW2 economy measure and it was never reinstated by BR, leading to the demise of the grade separated junction, but this means that prior to 1941, there was a Southern electric stopping service in addition to the District Line. Was this only ever Waterloo - Wimbledon, or did it go further? I would like to see a picture of one of these services at East Putney but can’t find one.

Isn’t it also true that for over 10 years following the closure of the flyover, due to a lack of alternations to the signalling system by BR (who could afford neither these nor the continued maintenance of the flyover) it was actually impossible for them to use the line in either direction?

It may be that increasing demands for resilience or stricter route knowledge requirements after privatisation necessitated the introduction of a daily service in 2001, but is this purely for route retention purposes, or is this actually a “parliamentary” service, where this section of track is legally required to be serviced by a passenger train?

 

[TEW]

I wonder if it's in part due to the fact that some crew who sign the line no longer sign Wimbledon Park Depot, so cannot work ECS moves in to the depot to retain route knowledge.

The current passenger services over the line are worked by Basingstoke crew who do not sign Wimbledon Park Depot. I don't know if they did in the past, but it's certainly possible. Pre-Covid there were a couple more services, including one worked by Strawberry Hill crew, who also do not sign Wimbledon Park Depot.

Waterloo and Wimbledon Park crew also sign East Putney and maintain route knowledge via working the ECS moves in to and out of the depot.

 

[QJ]

It would be nice that when 2L77 is diverted via the main line people waiting on platform 6 at Clapham Junction are notified of the platform change before the train is due to leave (2319) and not a minute afterwards (as happened tonight 01/12) especially given the cancellation of the following two services heading towards Hampshire.

 

[Guano]

The 1935 timetable of Southern Railway pages 214 - 217 (on Timetable World) shows a weekday service between Waterloo and Wimbledon via this line. They appear not to continue south of Wimbledon. At times the service was hourly, at times half hourly, and some trains went no further south than Wimbledon Park.

In summer 1973 I lived at Southfields and regularly witnessed BR excursion services (using multiple unit stock) towards Portsmouth or Bournemouth at about 10.00 returning in the early evening.

 

[D7666]

I believe that Weymouth boat trains were booked via this route from 1953 until 1962, so I would guess that 2001 may have been the first time any service trains regularly used this route for 39 years.

I also seem to recall that in BR days there was the odd freight train booked via this route, although I only ever remember seeing a freight train on it once. It must be many years since any freights used it.

I am a little puzzled by the reference to Weymouth boat trains 1953 onwards, as until 11/1959 Weymouth CI boat trains were from Paddington via Castle Cary not Waterloo. Even then they were few and far between, irregular dates, irregular timings; it was more or less 1966 electrification before they came regular. However, I am not discounting other boat trains, of which there were many from Waterloo to Southampton, but, as other commented upthread, that would result in unusual platforming at Waterloo as it meant Windsor Lines not Main Lines platforms.

w.r.t. freight, at least in later days, the line had a weight restriction on it first in the Up direction over the flyover when that was in use then a less restrictive one on the Down direction too; I am not sure exactly what the restrictions were, but it might have been RA 7 barred Down, and all CoCo Up barred. ISTR a F&W tour returning through London that way with 2x56 was booked that way but on the day went via Chertsey exactly for this reason ***

The Up route - over the flyover - was closed because of condition of the flyover itself. That was (question) early 1980s ? At that time the route usage for diversion of anything, freight or passenger, became limited as there was no Up route, the Point Pleasant Jn. ladder crossing took many years to come into being way after the flyover route closed.

Then, even with the ladder, you have [a] the problem of weaving Up trains across the Down Windsors a single line section, admittedly short, between PP Jn and E.Putney, all of which are timetabling constraints and performance issues. And all that is before trying to run between District trains.

I not delved into PSUL back issues, but certainly before the Up route was closed it was a routine weekends diversionary route. It was no uncommon for most of Sundays mornings main line EMU to from Bournemouth and Portsmouth lines to take that route both ways. Done it many times, and with 33s in the 1971-1980 Exeter Waterloo period (although not sure I did it with a Exeter Waterloo 50), and every Rep (my Rep records I did for each way routes between Waterloo and Bournemouth) I had via East Putney / Wimbledon one direction or the other.

Almost every Adex from SWML country stations (i.e. Woking and west thereof) that needed the WLL or SLL to cross London went that way and not via Chertsey; like wise Adex from other SR parts to SWD came this way; I was a regular on those adexes from SWD, and I think only went Chertsey -> to cross London once, all other times were Wimbledon East Putney CJ Olympia -> cross London. ((That is how I cleared my LT battery locos for sight, passing Lillie Bridge, their then base, so many times.))

So while PSUL may not have listed any regular timetabled passenger trains in some timetables, it was certainly frequently used by diversions and excursions. Up to closure of the Up route I suggest.


***
Darkle Dungeneer

Six Bells Junction

 

[Big Jumby 74]

2L10 04.51 Basingstoke-Waterloo and 2L77 23.12 Waterloo-Basingstoke on Mondays-Saturdays and 1B01 01.05 Waterloo-Southampton on Sundays

The current passenger services over the line are worked by Basingstoke

This is going way back, and I concur with TEW on his point (as far as more recent times are concerned), but when these trains were first diverted that way in the LTP, I have a feeling they were all worked by WA night turns, certainly front end - don't remember ref the rear afraid!

 

[D7666]

Is the question being asked for someone wishing to do this track.?

I did an enquiry on OTT using TIPLOC = EPUTNEY and, apart from several ECS, and the above mentioned trains the following are returned for the dates in the 6th and 7th columns. That is what is says, don't shoot the messenger.

Y00333	VAR	1F83	XX	0033 London Waterloo (Main) - Guildford	2024-01-09	2024-01-12	MSX	SW
Q95040	STP	2P86	OO	0015 Haslemere - London Waterloo (Main)	2024-02-04	2024-02-04	SUN	SW

Y01614

VAR

2D06

OO

0605 Wimbledon - London Waterloo (Main)

2024-01-28

2024-01-28

SUN

SW

Y02825	VAR	2K05	OO	0603 London Waterloo (Main) - Wimbledon	2024-01-28	2024-01-28	SUN	SW
Y01614	VAR	2D06	OO	0612 Wimbledon - London Waterloo (Main)	2024-02-04	2024-02-04	SUN	SW
Y02825	VAR	2K05	OO	0620 London Waterloo (Main) - Hampton Court	2024-02-04	2024-02-04	SUN	SW
Y01616	VAR	2D07	OO	0624 London Waterloo (Main) - Surbiton	2024-01-28	2024-01-28	SUN	SW
Y01619	VAR	2D08	OO	0635 Wimbledon - London Waterloo (Main)	2024-01-28	2024-01-28	SUN	SW
Y01619	VAR	2D08	OO	0636 Wimbledon - London Waterloo (Main)	2023-12-10	2023-12-10	SUN	SW
Y01616	VAR	2D07	OO	0633 London Waterloo (Main) - Epsom	2024-02-04	2024-02-04	SUN	SW
Y01619	VAR	2D08	OO	0642 Wimbledon - London Waterloo (Main)	2024-02-04	2024-02-04	SUN	SW

 

[AlbertBeale]

I am a little puzzled by the reference to Weymouth boat trains 1953 onwards, as until 11/1959 Weymouth CI boat trains were from Paddington via Castle Cary not Waterloo. Even then they were few and far between, irregular dates, irregular timings; it was more or less 1966 electrification before they came regular. However, I am not discounting other boat trains, of which there were many from Waterloo to Southampton, but, as other commented upthread, that would result in unusual platforming at Waterloo as it meant Windsor Lines not Main Lines platforms.

w.r.t. freight, at least in later days, the line had a weight restriction on it first in the Up direction over the flyover when that was in use then a less restrictive one on the Down direction too; I am not sure exactly what the restrictions were, but it might have been RA 7 barred Down, and all CoCo Up barred. ISTR a F&W tour returning through London that way with 2x56 was booked that way but on the day went via Chertsey exactly for this reason ***

The Up route - over the flyover - was closed because of condition of the flyover itself. That was (question) early 1980s ? At that time the route usage for diversion of anything, freight or passenger, became limited as there was no Up route, the Point Pleasant Jn. ladder crossing took many years to come into being way after the flyover route closed.

Then, even with the ladder, you have [a] the problem of weaving Up trains across the Down Windsors a single line section, admittedly short, between PP Jn and E.Putney, all of which are timetabling constraints and performance issues. And all that is before trying to run between District trains.

I not delved into PSUL back issues, but certainly before the Up route was closed it was a routine weekends diversionary route. It was no uncommon for most of Sundays mornings main line EMU to from Bournemouth and Portsmouth lines to take that route both ways. Done it many times, and with 33s in the 1971-1980 Exeter Waterloo period (although not sure I did it with a Exeter Waterloo 50), and every Rep (my Rep records I did for each way routes between Waterloo and Bournemouth) I had via East Putney / Wimbledon one direction or the other.

Almost every Adex from SWML country stations (i.e. Woking and west thereof) that needed the WLL or SLL to cross London went that way and not via Chertsey; like wise Adex from other SR parts to SWD came this way; I was a regular on those adexes from SWD, and I think only went Chertsey -> to cross London once, all other times were Wimbledon East Putney CJ Olympia -> cross London. ((That is how I cleared my LT battery locos for sight, passing Lillie Bridge, their then base, so many times.))

So while PSUL may not have listed any regular timetabled passenger trains in some timetables, it was certainly frequently used by diversions and excursions. Up to closure of the Up route I suggest.


***
Darkle Dungeneer

Six Bells Junction

What does ADEX stand for?

 

[Magdalia]

What does ADEX stand for?

Adex was an old telegraph code for advertised excursion. In the late 1950s/early 1960s the Eastern Region also used Privex for private excursion, Garex for guaranteed excursion and Parspec for party special but I don't fully understand the differences. Adex is sometimes used loosely to cover all of them, though strictly speaking, I think it only applied to trains where tickets could be purchased from BR ticket offices.

The 1963 Clapham Junction-Portsmouth Harbour excursion, that I referred to previously, is a bit odd to me for two reasons: it appears in the working timetable, but appears not to have a return working from Portsmouth Harbour.

One of my research interests is excursion trains running between the Eastern and Southern Regions, and the routes they took to get through or round London. For routes on the Southern Region this research is still at an early stage. One I've looked at is the Southend-Farnborough that ran for every air show. This ran via Kensington and Putney up to 1962 but via Hounslow from 1964.

 

[30907]

The 1963 Clapham Junction-Portsmouth Harbour excursion, that I referred to previously, is a bit odd to me for two reasons: it appears in the working timetable, but appears not to have a return working from Portsmouth Harbour.

Not at all uncommon. The train would have run back empty before the evening peak, and the tickets/handbills would have said "return by any train same day."

Good use of resources - although not an ADEX, there was for many years until Covid a through service from Catford Loop stations to the Kent Coast with no return working. It has morphed into a Victoai-Dartford-Ramsgate service ths year.

 

[anothertyke]

Certainly in the 50s/60s various Up EMU trains were booked that way (eg on summer Saturdays) as well as loads of ECSto and from Wimbledon depot.
The only regular down train across the junction at Wimbledon was the afternoon Clapham Jn to Exeter milk empties, usually a Pacific job.
I suspect route knowledge in those days didn't have to involve proving thatvyou knew the short connection at Wimbledon

There were no Weymouth-Waterloo boat trains before 1959, and it would have been an odd choice to access platforms 11-12.
I think regular Summer Saturday use ceased in the mid 60s.

The afternoon milk empties was a vital train for spotters because it was usually headed by an Exmouth Jct or Plymouth unrebuilt West Country which were not that easy in the London area. It was also quite well timed to see after school.

I did once travel over the Point Pleasant curve on a special excursion from Wimbledon to Kings Lynn (actually a pilgrimage to Walsingham) via the North London Line changing locos at Canonbury.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The 1963 Clapham Junction-Portsmouth Harbour excursion, that I referred to previously, is a bit odd to me for two reasons: it appears in the working timetable, but appears not to have a return working from Portsmouth Harbour.

Was this EMU or Loco hauled?

 

[D7666]

Adex was an old telegraph code for advertised excursion. In the late 1950s/early 1960s the Eastern Region also used Privex for private excursion, Garex for guaranteed excursion and Parspec for party special but I don't fully understand the differences. Adex is sometimes used loosely to cover all of them, though strictly speaking, I think it only applied to trains where tickets could be purchased from BR ticket offices.

'privex' is a term I have not come across before but I be not an ER person; possibly this means the same as a charter train , slang use of code 'chartex' but unsure if the latter is a telegraph code

'garex' I have not heard the code term before but have heard the full term; I do not know what it might mean.

'parspec' I believe is where a large party makes a block booking to travel but do not actually hire a train; the party is too big to be accommodated so BR puts on a sort of planned relief for that party only => party special. At least that is how it was explained to me, from BR SR people.

I suspect with all of these things there are regional variations and grey areas and eroded and distorted over time.

People in forums and speech often refer to 'foot-ex' 'thug-ex' 'rugg-ex' 'boat-ex' (and even 'crank-ex') by attaching ex-cursion to the base word; no idea if any ofthese are official codes.

'crankex' obviously is not; however, it did used to appear in BR SR P notices i.e. the weekly traffic arrangements when a SEG tour ran, being trains for cranks planned by cranks in the same offices as the cranks who edited the notices).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2023 ==

One of my research interests is excursion trains running between the Eastern and Southern Regions, and the routes they took to get through or round London. For routes on the Southern Region this research is still at an early stage. One I've looked at is the Southend-Farnborough that ran for every air show. This ran via Kensington and Putney up to 1962 but via Hounslow from 1964.

Despite doing numerous 1970s and a few 1980s Adex from SR SWD to LMR (WCML and MML), and even to WR, I never did any to ER / GER so can't help there at all.

Have you ploughed through 6BJ ?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The 1963 Clapham Junction-Portsmouth Harbour excursion, that I referred to previously, is a bit odd to me for two reasons

I'm going to take a stab in the dark with this. I have a copy of the Winter 1962 CWN, which includes various hand written amendments, things that would have become part of the base plan in the Summer 1963 CWN (if still required).

In this copy one such hand written additional service is a SUNDAYS 10.10 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour, formed 8 Hap, having run empty from Wimbledon Depot. This formation stays down at Pompey Sunday nights, then works a diagram each day the following week replacing a 8 BIL formation, until the Friday night (of each week) when the 8 Hap returns to Wimbledon Depot.

My best guess is that this was something to do with a reduction in available BIL units at the time, resulting in the 8 HAP working. To 'balance' this working, the additional Sunday service (10.10 Waterloo) may have been seen as good way of doing this, and providing an additional service (gaining revenue) down to the coast on a Sunday morning.

It may be that at some point during this period, the train was re-scheduled to start Clapham Junction, hence possibly easier to path down via East Putney, but this pure speculation?

Have written out the HAP diagram concerned, attached. Just a thought, that's all..

 

[D6130]

garex' I have not heard the code term before but have heard the full term; I do not know what it might mean.

Guaranteed Excursion....meaning that it would run even if nobody turned up to travel on it. An archaic telegraph code which was still in the code book when I started on the railway in 1975. However, I don't recall ever having seen one....either on paper or in the flesh, so to speak.

 

[181]

The Up route - over the flyover - was closed because of condition of the flyover itself. That was (question) early 1980s ? At that time the route usage for diversion of anything, freight or passenger, became limited as there was no Up route, the Point Pleasant Jn. ladder crossing took many years to come into being way after the flyover route closed.

Consistent with this, my recollection is that the flyover was removed sometime during the time I was using the line under it fairly often, i.e. between 1983 and 1989. I don't know how long it had been disused for, though. The first of the two occasions on which I've travelled over the spur (and the only one in the up direction) was on a Surbiton-Waterloo journey (diverted I presume due to engineering works) on a Sunday morning in October 1995, which gives a latest date by which the up route must have been available.

 

[30907]

I'm going to take a stab in the dark with this. I have a copy of the Winter 1962 CWN, which includes various hand written amendments, things that would have become part of the base plan in the Summer 1963 CWN (if still required).

In this copy one such hand written additional service is a SUNDAYS 10.10 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour, formed 8 Hap, having run empty from Wimbledon Depot. ...

It may be that at some point during this period, the train was re-scheduled to start Clapham Junction, hence possibly easier to path down via East Putney, but this pure speculation?

I have the 1959 WTT (I imagine 1963 was the same). There are two Sunday Portsmouth trains involved:
10.10 Waterloo and 10.10 Clapham Jn.
The Clapham Jn train was a peak relief to the Waterloo (which ran May to Sept) and covered the Wimbledon and Surbiton stops of the latter. Starting trains on the Main lines at CLJ was awkward (though theoretically possible), hence the use of the Windsor side and the East Putney route. It was formed ECS out of Wimbledon Park via East Putney.
My next WTT is 1966 and by then only the Waterloo excursion (as per your CWN) remains with its "low season" calls.

Just for completeness:
In 1959 there are 3 summer Saturday Up workings in the early afternoon, one a regular Alton slow and the others reliefs for Service traffic - an article in the April 1962 TI/MR says this was to get them into the Windsor side platforms, out of the way of all the steam arrivals.
Other than that there are loads of Down ECS to Wimbledon Park and a much smaller number of Up ones, plus odd parcels and milk trains as mentioned.
There is one EMU parcels 11.6am Waterloo-Wimbledon (SR bay) and one around 7pm Dorking-Wimbledon-Waterloo. Both would be repurposed ECS!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The Up route - over the flyover - was closed because of condition of the flyover itself. That was (question) early 1980s ? At that time the route usage for diversion of anything, freight or passenger, became limited as there was no Up route, the Point Pleasant Jn. ladder crossing took many years to come into being way after the flyover route closed.

This is an interesting discussion, and by that I mean the last part of your comment about a delay between the UP flyover being closed and a replacement ladder for UP trains off the Down EP to gain the UWFL at PPJ. My initial thought was that without the replacement ladder in place before the flyover was closed would have rendered part of the timetable unworkable, as in provision of stock for start up coming ECS from Wimbledon Park up to Waterloo via the Windsor lines.
I was there throughout this time, but like much of what we did, would have been dealt with as 'just another STP to get around' and so has now been long forgotten in the mists of time. What can be said is that in more recent times (2010's/latter SWT days) the increased level of demand/service and associated increase in empty stock moves from/to Waterloo and Wimbledon/Clapham, led to virtually all spare pathing capacity over routes such as Wimbledon Park to Point Pleasant Jn, and Down road through Queens Road (contra a.m. peak) being used up in the base plan - so nothing left (spare pathing) for any out of course melt down working.

But looking at the few documents I still have, the empty moves pre a.m. peak from Wimbledon Depot UP the East Putney were quite few at the time concerned, as follows;

Summer 1979

05+19 Wimbledon Park to Ascot
05+47 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo
05+57 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo
06+18 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo

Summer 2010

05+05 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo
05+19 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo
05+34 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo

Winter 2016

05+05 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo
05+19 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo
05+34 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo
06+05 Wimbledon Park to Waterloo

From these timings it can be seen that an earlier departure has been in place from Wimbledon Depot in the 21st Century, due to increased service levels on LUL District line, but by the time of the 10 car SWT suburban plan, the very same detail that provided 10 car trains instead of 8 cars, also had knock effects elsewhere, with (in this case) an additional departure at 06+05 squeezed in between LUL services. I will add here that I do recall LUL planning were extremely keen to do what they could to help SWT's plans at that time - some things stick in the memory!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2023 ==

I have the 1959 WTT (I imagine 1963 was the same). There are two Sunday Portsmouth trains involved:
10.10 Waterloo and 10.10 Clapham Jn.
The Clapham Jn train was a peak relief to the Waterloo (which ran May to Sept) and covered the Wimbledon and Surbiton stops of the latter. Starting trains on the Main lines at CLJ was awkward (though theoretically possible), hence the use of the Windsor side and the East Putney route. It was formed ECS out of Wimbledon Park via East Putney.

Thank you for the add on detail. With discussions such as this, so far down the line, it is very easy to forget (and I'm talking as someone who was involved) how frequently changes to the plan took place for reasons too numerous to mention, and so it is (today) very difficult to answer with accuracy specific questions in many cases.
But as you say, 'legal' (on paper) timetable moves out of Clapham Yard directly to the DMF (platform 9) were all but impossible for most hours of the day, such was the throughput of other services.

 

[Magdalia]

I have the 1959 WTT (I imagine 1963 was the same). There are two Sunday Portsmouth trains involved:
10.10 Waterloo and 10.10 Clapham Jn.

There is a slight difference in the 1963 WTT: the Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour excursion started at 1005. It had no calls before Hampton Court Jn.

Have you ploughed through 6BJ ?

Yes thanks, and with occasional visits to check for anything new. But Six Bells barely scratches the surface for traffic of this kind in the late 1950s and early 1960s. For example, it only has the Southend-Farnborough in 1959.

I did once travel over the Point Pleasant curve on a special excursion from Wimbledon to Kings Lynn (actually a pilgrimage to Walsingham) via the North London Line changing locos at Canonbury.

This is research gold! I'd love to hear anything and everything that you can remember of this. I have identified quite a few Walsingham pilgrimage trains, none of them on Six Bells. I have drawn a blank on both written accounts and photographs, apart from a few newspaper reports. These don't give the sorts of details that I'm interested in, such as locomotives and routes.

Most pilgrimage trains ran from Liverpool Street but I have a Wimbledon-Kings Lynn on 10 May 1959 and a Wimbledon-Walsingham on 2 July 1961. Are we talking of 10 May 1959 here? Both would be likely to have run via Putney to then go via Kensington Olympia towards the North London Line.

The afternoon milk empties was a vital train for spotters because it was usually headed by an Exmouth Jct or Plymouth unrebuilt West Country which were not that easy in the London area. It was also quite well timed to see after school.

In 1963 departure time from Clapham Junction was 1554 and a minute earlier if using a pilot loco.

 

[D7666]

This is an interesting discussion, and by that I mean the last part of your comment about a delay between the UP flyover being closed and a replacement ladder for UP trains off the Down EP to gain the UWFL at PPJ. My initial thought was that without the replacement ladder in place before the flyover was closed would have rendered part of the timetable unworkable, as in provision of stock for start up coming ECS from Wimbledon Park up to Waterloo via the Windsor lines.

I can't remember all the dates but IIRC the Up flyover was suddenly taken out of use because of structural issues hence there was no a plan to put the ladder in first. Or, there might have been an aspiration if they knew the structure was degrading but nothing done until too late. No doubt there was a protracted debate of do we / don't we fix the flyover, can we do without the route completely, then finding funds for the ladder, all of which was in late 1980/early 1990s when funding was low, and, BR commencing [1984] sectorisation so which sector pays would have been in the debate too, and debate = procrastination. I am trying to think if the Up route wasclosed before or after the Clapham cutting accidet; I think it was before, and the knock on effect on resiganlling work after that slowed it right down.

 

[181]

I am trying to think if the Up route wasclosed before or after the Clapham cutting accidet; I think it was before, and the knock on effect on resiganlling work after that slowed it right down.

I think you're likely to be right that it was before; all I can remember for more-or-less certain is that the flyover was removed sometime between September 1983 and July 1989, but December 1988 is towards the end of that period. Indeed after reading this thread, I wondered whether the resignalling project that resulted in* the accident was also what made the up route at Point Pleasant available again.

*For those who don't know, the cause was a redundant wire left in place during the work -- nothing to do with the design of the new system as my phrase 'resulted in' might suggest.

 

[anothertyke]

This is research gold! I'd love to hear anything and everything that you can remember of this. I have identified quite a few Walsingham pilgrimage trains, none of them on Six Bells. I have drawn a blank on both written accounts and photographs, apart from a few newspaper reports. These don't give the sorts of details that I'm interested in, such as locomotives and routes.

Most pilgrimage trains ran from Liverpool Street but I have a Wimbledon-Kings Lynn on 10 May 1959 and a Wimbledon-Walsingham on 2 July 1961. Are we talking of 10 May 1959 here? Both would be likely to have run via Putney to then go via Kensington Olympia towards the North London Line.

Yes I have only ever been on two trains of particular interest and that was one of them. I would incline to the earlier date, here are a few pointers. The locos were 73117 to Canonbury and 61394 to KL. I wonder when the B1 was moved from 34A. Also I saw some interesting locos when we passed KL shed including 61629, 62529 and 62613, Did any of those last until 1961? I should have been praying all the way.......

The train departed Wimbledon from a platform very rarely used at the time. Possibly P4? It was a rake of Maunsell coaches. The train terminated at Kings Lynn. The route was East Putney, the West London and North London lines passing high above Kings Cross shed. reverse at Canonbury, then via Hitchin.

It was such a hot day that the tarmac was melting and the pilgrims were not required to remove shoes for the walk to the Abbey, Maybe you could check the weather records?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I may be wrong, but I’d always assumed the use of the Spur was much more for AM down ECS rather than PM up ECS was that it provided a nice way for trains to get to Wimbledon Park without having to cross the up main at Wimbledon. So an update Windsor peak service could be sent back without disrupting things and an up Main arrival needing to go to Wimbledon could be platformed relatively high at Waterloo so crossing to the down Windsor to head via East Putney was also relatively easy.

In the PM peak the trains needing the Down Main departures could be run out via the Up Main and those needing the Windsor lines could also run up the Up Main and cross over to the Windsor side between Clapham Jct and Waterloo. There would have been fewer lines to cross in the afternoon than in the morning.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes I have only ever been on two trains of particular interest and that was one of them. I would incline to the earlier date, here are a few pointers. The locos were 73117 to Canonbury and 61394 to KL. I wonder when the B1 was moved from 34A. Also I saw some interesting locos when we passed KL shed including 61629, 62529 and 62613, Did any of those last until 1961? I should have been praying all the way.......

The train departed Wimbledon from a platform very rarely used at the time. Possibly P4? It was a rake of Maunsell coaches. The train terminated at Kings Lynn. The route was East Putney, the West London and North London lines passing high above Kings Cross shed. reverse at Canonbury, then via Hitchin.

It was such a hot day that the tarmac was melting and the pilgrims were not required to remove shoes for the walk to the Abbey, Maybe you could check the weather records?

Brilliant, thanks very much for this.

Yes, I think we are talking 10 May 1959. 61394 was a 34A loco at the time, there until closure in June 1963. The 3 locos you saw at Kings Lynn were all still in traffic in May 1959. 62613 is a bit of a celebrity as the last "Claud" in service.

I have checked the weather reports in the Times. Unfortunately there isn't much detail but London was 72F on Friday 8 May, 74F on Saturday 9 May and 75F on Sunday 10 May. News in brief on Saturday reported that 77F had been recorded in Cromer the previous day, so East Anglia was likely very hot over the weekend. In 1959 those were very hot days for May.