Potential Prosecution - Need Advice!

[Gloster]

This is correct.

I purchased before boarding the train.

Took my details on the train.

This may sound pedantic, but it is (I think, as a non-expert) an important detail. Are you quite sure that the transaction of purchasing the Flitwick-St Pancras ticket was entirely completed before you boarded the train?

 

[JR1820]

This may sound pedantic, but it is (I think, as a non-expert) an important detail. Are you quite sure that the transaction of purchasing the Flitwick-St Pancras ticket was entirely completed before you boarded the train?

Yes I'm positive, it says when the ticket was purchased on the trainline app.

 

[Haywain]

And when you were asked for a ticket which ticket did you show?

 

[boiledbeans2]

This fits with the inspector's actions: Observe a passenger with a Harlington ticket heading for a train not stopping there, so follow them on board to investigate.

So the inspector checked you twice?
Once before boarding, and another while onboard?

 

[furlong]

We're struggling to piece together what actually happened here.

It might help if you could attach images of the tickets / receipt / paperwork (cover up thing like your name) so we can see the type and format of the tickets, the prices paid, the times of purchase etc.

 

[JR1820]

And when you were asked for a ticket which ticket did you show?

The one to St Pancras, but she said "show me the one you scanned in with"

So I showed her that and she then took my details. She took pictures of the tickets I had

Then said I would be under investigation

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2023 ==

So the inspector checked you twice?
Once before boarding, and another while onboard?

She checked once when I was on the train. Asking for both tickets I had used.

 

[Hadders]

What's going to be important here is if you can show that the ticket to St Pancras was purchased before you boarded the train. What is the time on the email confirmation compared to the train departure time?

 

[JR1820]

What's going to be important here is if you can show that the ticket to St Pancras was purchased before you boarded the train. What is the time on the email confirmation compared to the train departure time?

6:43 ticket purchase on trainline app, and the train departs at 6:44 as was a minute late. I wouldn't have boarded the train if I could not see the ticket had gone through.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Did the inspector travel on the train with you or did they remain at Flitwick?

 

[spag23]

It's surely not an offence to board a train with two valid tickets for the same journey. Unusual yes, financially daft yes. But nothing the TOC can complain about. If anything, the OP may be due a refund for the unused (albeit scanned) ticket to Harlington.
I'm assuming here that the OP hasn't been regularly applying for refunds on tickets to STP

 

[JR1820]

Did the inspector travel on the train with you or did they remain at Flitwick?

Travelled on the train

 

[Hadders]

6:43 ticket purchase on trainline app, and the train departs at 6:44 as was a minute late. I wouldn't have boarded the train if I could not see the ticket had gone through.

That being the case, I would write a short response making the following points:

- that you purchased a ticket from Flitwick to Harlington (which is a journey you regularly make), but realised you needed a ticket to St Pancras.
- realising your mistake, you immediately purchased a new ticket from Flitwick to St Pancras to regularise the situation and ensure you had a valid ticket for your full journey. State the ticket new ticket was purchased before boarding the train.

Enclose a copy of the confirmation email showing the purchase time and state that this is before the train departed.

Ask them to confirm that in view of the fact that you purchased a valid ticket for the whole journey before boarding the train that the matter is now closed.

 

[JR1820]

That being the case, I would write a short response making the following points:

- that you purchased a ticket from Flitwick to Harlington (which is a journey you regularly make), but realised you needed a ticket to St Pancras.
- realising your mistake, you immediately purchased a new ticket from Flitwick to St Pancras to regularise the situation and ensure you had a valid ticket for your full journey. State the ticket new ticket was purchased before boarding the train.

Enclose a copy of the confirmation email showing the purchase time and state that this is before the train departed.

Ask them to confirm that in view of the fact that you purchased a valid ticket for the whole journey before boarding the train that the matter is now closed.

Thank you for your help

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, just to clarify, the OP used a short distance Flitwick to Harlington (Beds) ticket (cost = £4-90) and used this to enter through the barriers at Flitwick, before then going to board a Southbound train not necessarily scheduled to call at Harlington. Before then buying a second ticket, from Flitwick to London, price = £26-70.

Not of help to the OP, but as well as the waste of the £4-90, can see why this might look suspicious.

By the way, could the £26-70 ticket, in theory, have been auto-refunded if not scanned?

 

[Haywain]

She checked once when I was on the train. Asking for both tickets I had used.

But had, presumably, seen you entering the platform at Flitwick.

The one to St Pancras, but she said "show me the one you scanned in with"

So I showed her that and she then took my details. She took pictures of the tickets I had

Then said I would be under investigation

You have, potentially, committed an offence as attempting to travel without paying the fare is an offence. This can be demonstrated by using the ticket to Harlington to access the station while you were travelling to London. The offence isn't necessarily undone by buying the correct ticket and it could be argued you bought the second ticket because of being aware of revenue protection staff being present.

 

[AlterEgo]

You have, potentially, committed an offence as attempting to travel without paying the fare is an offence. This can be demonstrated by using the ticket to Harlington to access the station while you were travelling to London. The offence isn't necessarily undone by buying the correct ticket and it could be argued you bought the second ticket because of being aware of revenue protection staff being present.

Potentially, yes, this looks suspicions - but importantly this is not what the OP is being accused of in this instance.

OP: what date did this happen? We can bring up the live train running data to back up your story.

 

[JR1820]

But had, presumably, seen you entering the platform at Flitwick.

You have, potentially, committed an offence as attempting to travel without paying the fare is an offence. This can be demonstrated by using the ticket to Harlington to access the station while you were travelling to London. The offence isn't necessarily undone by buying the correct ticket and it could be argued you bought the second ticket because of being aware of revenue protection staff being present.

This does look suspicious. So I understand why they are investigating.

What would you suggest my next steps be.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

what date did this happen? We can bring up the live train running data to back up your story.

The scanned letter posted upthread in post #15 states that the incident took place on Tuesday 26SEP2023.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

What would you suggest my next steps be.

The TOC is asking for your version of events. The usual advice is to be truthful, but not admit offences which you have not been accused of. Only you can know whether you were aware at the time you used it, that the ticket you used to pass the barrier was not valid on the train you were intending to catch.

If you weren't aware, the TOC can reasonably ask how you later realised it wasn't valid and purchased the London ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

The scanned letter posted upthread in post #15 states that the incident took place on Tuesday 26SEP2023.

If this was on the 26th then the live train running data doesn’t substantiate the OP’s version of events. It in fact arrived early and departed on time.

Realtime Trains | 9R51 1832 Bedford to Three Bridges | 26/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 9R51 1832 departure from Bedford to Three Bridges on 26/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If this was on the 26th then the live train running data doesn’t substantiate the OP’s version of events. It in fact arrived early and departed on time.

Realtime Trains | 9R51 1832 Bedford to Three Bridges | 26/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 9R51 1832 departure from Bedford to Three Bridges on 26/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Aren't the OP (and the letter that's been posted) both talking about the incident having been that morning, just before 7 a.m., and not early evening?

 

[JR1820]

Aren't the OP (and the letter that's been posted) both talking about the incident having been that morning, just before 7 a.m., and not early evening?

It was in the AM. And it arrived a minute late. Sure they can check cameras etc.

If this was on the 26th then the live train running data doesn’t substantiate the OP’s version of events. It in fact arrived early and departed on time.

Realtime Trains | 9R51 1832 Bedford to Three Bridges | 26/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 9R51 1832 departure from Bedford to Three Bridges on 26/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

It was in the AM. And it arrived a minute late. Sure they can check cameras etc.

Oh yes my apologies. This data does back up your story and you should include it in your reply.

Realtime Trains | 9R85 0633 Bedford to Three Bridges | 28/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 9R85 0633 departure from Bedford to Three Bridges on 28/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

Potentially, yes, this looks suspicions - but importantly this is not what the OP is being accused of in this instance.

Until a summons is issued, it's just words in a letter. They could later issue a summons for a different (and correct) offence. The OP will want to avoid even an incorrect summons.

 

[SuspectUsual]

This does look suspicious. So I understand why they are investigating.

What would you suggest my next steps be.

If it was me I’d explain the context around your regular purchases of the shorter distance ticket, because in a lot of cases we see on here people admit using a shorter distance purchase as a means of fare avoidance. It’s perhaps understandable that the the train company might wonder if you’ve been doing the same, so a clear, evidenced explanation will probably help you

 

[30907]

Oh yes my apologies. This data does back up your story and you should include it in your reply.

Realtime Trains | 9R85 0633 Bedford to Three Bridges | 28/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 9R85 0633 departure from Bedford to Three Bridges on 28/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The date was 26/09 not 28/11 though. I can't go that far back on RTT, sorry.

 

[AlterEgo]

The date was 26/09 not 28/11 though. I can't go that far back on RTT, sorry.

This is definitely the correct one! https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y54557/2023-09-26/detailed

You just alter the URL.

 

[fandroid]

The Harlington ticket was a perfectly valid ticket for passing through the barriers, as there were trains that could have been caught to there. To board the first train to St Pancras that arrived, another ticket was needed, and that was duly bought before boarding. Odd looking behaviour indeed, but I've done similar things several times in the past, and I'm sure many others on here have too.

 

[WesternLancer]

The Harlington ticket was a perfectly valid ticket for passing through the barriers, as there were trains that could have been caught to there. To board the first train to St Pancras that arrived, another ticket was needed, and that was duly bought before boarding. Odd looking behaviour indeed, but I've done similar things several times in the past, and I'm sure many others on here have too.

I think clarity of explanation in the reply will be key for the OP's response - so it is easy to understand by the reader at the railway's end - might be worth posting up the draft here so people can help check it. ( @JR1820 )

 

[JR1820]

I think clarity of explanation in the reply will be key for the OP's response - so it is easy to understand by the reader at the railway's end - might be worth posting up the draft here so people can help check it. ( @JR1820 )

This is my appeal letter:

I understand this appeal. Upon arriving at Flitwick, I had accidentally bought the wrong ticket to Harlington for the train I was supposed to be on (this is what I used to get through the barrier) - this was a genuine error.


After realising this after getting through the barriers, I bought the correct ticket to London before boarding the train I was supposed to be on, therefore boarding the train with a correct ticket.

I have a screenshot and proof of this ticket - I assume you have a picture/reference to this as the inspector took a photo.


I have learned from my mistake, and understand why it is important to always ensure /I have the correct ticket.

End of letter.

What do you guys think?