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They also threw in the towel at just about every slight surge in COVID cases during the pandemic, not to mention deciding they couldn't be bothered with Blackpool merely months from the planned start date.
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This quote from the supplied letter suggests London - Peterborough journeys were considered as a major inclusion in this case for additional calls, therefore I would be very surprised if they then installed a pick up/drop off only reguime.
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Train information at Peterborough all day on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
This search on RTT for calling services at PBO come the December timetable change suggests:
1N90 0827 London Kings Cross to Sunderland
1D71 1057 London Kings Cross to Bradford Interchange
1A64 1017 Sunderland to London Kings Cross
1A67 1450 Bradford Interchange to London Kings Cross
Will be the services stopping at Peterborough. The stops are currently unadvertised but seeing as the ORR letter specifically mentions trains that already have to stop there but can't open the doors indicates it would be those four services that'd then become advertised at PBO.
Personally, I saw this first and foremost as a Grand Central's way of competing with LNER on journeys primarily to London, Doncaster and York (hence their apparent opposition) rather than a method of opening up new journey opportunities.
Both data codes are possible at the same time, they are still different though. Although not 100% sure whether RTT would interpret an *A stop as unadvertised as well as an N stop.
1A64 is not a pathing stop according to RTT (although it is 5 minutes and therefore more than the minimum, suggesting it does wait for it's onward path as part of the unadvertised stop), 1A67 at 7 minutes is a pathing stop as well as unadvertised. 1D71 is also a 5-minute N stop but not flagged as pathing (data entry on the activity codes can be notoriously inconsistent though). 1N90 is only 2 minutes, which is presumably the minimum dwell at PBRO.
If and when GC sort their rolling stock reliability issues out, PBO will be a welcome call from and to the stations off the ECML on the Hartlepool route.
However as those same trains are mostly very well loaded to the point of standing only from York towards London and vice versa, i really can't see many Peterborough passengers bothering with such an infrequent offering.
Both data codes are possible at the same time, they are still different though. Although not 100% sure whether RTT would interpret an *A stop as unadvertised as well as an N stop.
1A64 is not a pathing stop according to RTT (although it is 5 minutes and therefore more than the minimum, suggesting it does wait for it's onward path as part of the unadvertised stop), 1A67 at 7 minutes is a pathing stop as well as unadvertised. 1D71 is also a 5-minute N stop but not flagged as pathing (data entry on the activity codes can be notoriously inconsistent though). 1N90 is only 2 minutes, which is presumably the minimum dwell at PBRO.
If and when GC sort their rolling stock reliability issues out, PBO will be a welcome call from and to the stations off the ECML on the Hartlepool route.
However as those same trains are mostly very well loaded to the point of standing only from York towards London and vice versa, i really can't see many Peterborough passengers bothering with such an infrequent offering.
First Group who also run Hull Trains and Lumo so in their interests to see Open Access allowed at Peterborough.
This is GC seeing an opportunity to convert existing "stops" at Peterborough for pathing into stops for passengers and hence they get a small fraction of fare income for nothing even if no one boards the services at Peterborough, nice move by GC. Same as Hull Trains stopping at Stevenage on Sundays only, no need for it just a fares raid HT's noticed years ago.
Would have been interesting to see their reaction if the proposal was to stop at Grantham and/or (the Sunderlands) at Doncaster instead, as Hull Trains currently take a good amount of London passengers from there, often with cheaper fares than LNER.
First Group who also run Hull Trains and Lumo so in their interests to see Open Access allowed at Peterborough.
This is GC seeing an opportunity to convert existing "stops" at Peterborough for pathing into stops for passengers and hence they get a small fraction of fare income for nothing even if no one boards the services at Peterborough, nice move by GC. Same as Hull Trains stopping at Stevenage on Sundays only, no need for it just a fares raid HT's noticed years ago.
No, it isn’t in their interests as London-Peterborough is low yield business which has the potential to crowd off better yield punters. For that reason, both Lumo and Hull Trains have absolutely no interest in stopping at Peterborough.
The amount of inter available revenue on the ECML is now next to nothing on the major flows so Hull Trains would have no issue with GC trying to muscle in to places like Grantham. Stevenage, incidentally, isn’t an ORCATS raid, there is real business to be had with people who would use the M25/A1 to come across to access the ECML there.
Wonder whether GC adding Peterborough Stops will result in some under £10 advance fares from Kings Cross to Peterborough, albeit only for their 2 services per day.
Either way it is an improvement (albeit minor) for ECML connectivity to/from Rutland and Cambridgeshire and East Anglia
In fairness they already stop at Grantham too. London Peterborough Grantham Doncaster is very clearly LNER extraction. GC of course are currently first stop Doncaster at least.
No, HT has never put up a proposal to stop at Peterborough - it would've been commercial suicide for them to do that.
A word about Abstraction. Abstraction only applies to current business - future new business is always up for grabs, if it isn't directly linked to investment. So you can never say that future business on a potentially competitive route is yours and yours alone.
Hull Trains are generally already quite full leaving Grantham when I see them heading south - there's nothing at all to gain from stopping at Peterborough.
Hull Trains are generally already quite full leaving Grantham when I see them heading south - there's nothing at all to gain from stopping at Peterborough.
Wonder whether GC adding Peterborough Stops will result in some under £10 advance fares from Kings Cross to Peterborough, albeit only for their 2 services per day.
Why should it? For every ticket they sell between London and Peterborough, they need someone else travelling between Peterborough and a point further north to make the same money as they make selling £30, £40, £50 fares to Doncaster and beyond from London.
LNER's lowest fares from London to Peterborough are at around £15 single.
I always forget just how far from London Peterborough is. I tend to think of it as sort of equal to Milton Keynes or Bedford, but it's almost equivalent to Leicester or Birmingham.
That said, the £3.50 advances from Euston to Crewe I used to get on LNR with 16-17 Saver back in the days were even better value
(Technically £3.50 from Euston to Manchester, because back then I didn't have the best integrity and used to hop onto Coach A of the Virgin knowing very well TMs never bother to go the short side of their Coach C office between Crewe and Manchester. )
It's rare I see a GC advance that's better value than an LNER or Hull one though, but maybe I'm just looking at the wrong times.
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I tend to see GC advances a couple of quid cheaper than LNER's, I don't look at Hull Trains fares, but I always think its worth it to pay a little bit more and get LNER.
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