Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[brad465]

The only reason Sunak has done this is blatant opportunism: looking for a desperate attempt to appear strong, in the eyes of the public, the media and disgruntled MPs in his party. I don't believe any meeting was planned in the following case, but for the same reason in the event Sunak was to meet the new Argentina leader, he'd have likely called that off over the latter's Falkland's recent remarks.

 

[renegademaster]

That satire is quite appropriate for things that we did actually loot - particularly stuff that was looted from colonies during the British Empire: I'd have absolutely no quibbles that the UK should recognise that it has no moral claim to ownership of artefacts taken in that way, and I don't doubt that there's a lot of that stuff sitting in British museums etc. But a bit of reading about the history of the Elgin Marbles quickly reveals that they don't fall into that category, and that it's very possible that we did acquire them legally and ethically (although the loss of some records makes it difficult to be sure either way).

We brought them legitimately (saving them from neglect) from people who did steal them (the Turks).

The other popular stolen historical item people like to whine about , the koh-i-noor , was stolen multiple times before we stole it, so I'm not going to shed many tears about it

 

[simonw]

Thing is, there is a case to be made for the British Museum to acknowledge Greek ownership of the marbles and for the Greek ministry responsible for antiquities to loan them to the museum until such time as they have suitable facilities for their preservation and display. Those kind of loan arrangements have been known to last for decades.

The Greeks already have suitable facilities - there is a museum within minutes of the Acropolis

Home | Acropolis Museum | Official website

The Acropolis Museum, one of the most important museums in the world, houses the findings of only one archaeological site, the Athenian Acropolis and its slopes. The masterpieces that form its collection offer a comprehensive overview of the character and historical course of the site that...

www.theacropolismuseum.gr

This contains the rest of the marbles

 

[nw1]

The only reason Sunak has done this is blatant opportunism: looking for a desperate attempt to appear strong, in the eyes of the public, the media and disgruntled MPs in his party. I don't believe any meeting was planned in the following case, but for the same reason in the event Sunak was to meet the new Argentina leader, he'd have likely called that off over the latter's Falkland's recent remarks.

It makes him look an idiot in the eyes of this member of the public, and I suspect many others. Not all of us are so nationalist that we want to hold on to things that, arguably, are not ours.

Part of being a responsible leader is respecting other countries, and not just sulking when other countries make a perfectly reasonable request.

 

[birchesgreen]

It makes him look an idiot in the eyes of this member of the public, and I suspect many others.

Part of being a responsible leader is respecting other countries, or at least other countries with a sane leadership.

Depends whom he wants to impress, seems like he only cares about pleasing the part of the electorate who get all excited about putting "Johnny Foreigner" in his place. Fortunately only a small subset of the electorate...

 

[takno]

We brought them legitimately (saving them from neglect) from people who did steal them (the Turks).

That sounds like knowingly receiving stolen property. You wouldn't get to keep my telly just because you paid the guy who burgled my house.

It's pretty on-message for a reactionary lunatic with the attention span of a gnat like Sunak though. His MO increasingly seems to be destroying months or years of patient work with the stroke of a pen. The fact that he does it to be popular, even when opinion polls clearly indicate that the thing he is destroying is popular, is just so painfully Rishi.

Why on earth would normal people want to have an argument with a much-loved holiday destination over whether we get to pay to keep a bunch of their stuff in a boring museum in London? If I really wanted to see them I can visit Athens for not a huge amount more than it costs me to go to London anyway.

 

[renegademaster]

That sounds like knowingly receiving stolen property

If the marbles has stayed in (Ottoman occupied)Greece at the time, they would have later been blown up in the explosion and lost to time if not for the British museum.
Now it's 2023 and Greece is an independent and stable country though their isn't much argument for keeping them

 

[Gloster]

The wider argument that is used is that if we give the Marbles back we will have to give lots of other things back to the countries that we nicked them from and London will no longer be one of the world’s great cultural and museum centres. In other words, our tourist business is more important than honesty.

My feeling is that we should return items to the country where they belong, although there are sometimes disagreements as to which of several they ’belong‘ to. In many cases we have only had them for a relatively small proportion of their existence and ‘finders-keepers’ is not a good basis for international law. I would accept that in some cases the items should not be returned until there are suitable facilities available for the conservation and care of the them.

Anyway, the Marbles may not go to Greece. The SNP are demanding they be returned to Elgin.

 

[Mag_seven]

The SNP are demanding they be returned to Elgin.

No they haven't - quite the opposite actually!

The SNP’s Stephen Flynn has joined calls for the Elgin Marbles to be returned to Athens.

SNP join calls for Elgin Marbles return as Sunak's Greek snub sparks diplomatic spat

The SNP’s Stephen Flynn has joined calls for the Elgin Marbles to be returned to Athens.

www.heraldscotland.com

 

[najaB]

The Greeks already have suitable facilities - there is a museum within minutes of the Acropolis

I know. It would be a convenient fiction that would allow both parties to get what they want: the British Museum would continue to display them, and the Greek authorities would get recognition of ownership.

It's known as diplomacy.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If the marbles has stayed in (Ottoman occupied)Greece at the time, they would have later been blown up in the explosion and lost to time if not for the British museum.
Now it's 2023 and Greece is an independent and stable country though their isn't much argument for keeping them

That would be roughly my view. I think what I'd ideally like to see is an agreement by which we return them to Greece, on the basis that they are from Parthenon/the Acropolis, and therefore on cultural/historical grounds, that's where they should be located and displayed, and at the same time Greece recognises that back in the day we probably did acquire them legitimately in order to preserve them, and stops making out that the UK did something wrong by taking them.

 

[najaB]

I think what I'd ideally like to see is an agreement by which we return them to Greece, on the basis that they are from Parthenon/the Acropolis, and therefore on cultural/historical grounds, that's where they should be located and displayed, and at the same time Greece recognises that back in the day we probably did acquire them legitimately in order to preserve them, and stops making out that the UK did something wrong by taking them.

Indeed. The problem isn't that they were taken, but more that we continue to refuse to acknowledge their rightful ownership.

 

[simonw]

If the marbles has stayed in (Ottoman occupied)Greece at the time, they would have later been blown up in the explosion and lost to time if not for the British museum.
Now it's 2023 and Greece is an independent and stable country though their isn't much argument for keeping them

How do you account for the other 'marbles' that the Greeks retained and are proudly displayed if they were all blown up?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2023 ==

I know. It would be a convenient fiction that would allow both parties to get what they want: the British Museum would continue to display them, and the Greek authorities would get recognition of ownership.

It's known as diplomacy.

Well given the Greek museum has spaces on its walls already to receive them in a world class museum it would be rather more than a fiction or diplomacy, it would be an outright lie.

 

[najaB]

How do you account for the other 'marbles' that the Greeks retained and are proudly displayed if they were all blown up?

I believe it was a reference to these specific artefacts, rather than the general.

Well given the Greek museum has spaces on its walls already to receive them in a world class museum it would be rather more than a fiction or diplomacy, it would be an outright lie.

Diplomacy is lying with style.

 

[simonw]

I believe it was a reference to these specific artefacts, rather than the general.

Diplomacy is lying with style.

The reply I quoted refers specifically to 'the marbles' . Given the elgin marbles are parts of frieze that ran around the Parthenon and the overwhelming majority of the frieze is intact.

There is no way the Greeks will agree to the lie having built a museum to house the other marbles and with dedicated space for the 'elgin' ones to be placed.

 

[JamesT]

I'm not sure why this is all being pinned on Sunak, he's just the current incumbent of Number 10 carrying on a long-standing policy.
The act banning the British Museum from disposing of its collection was in 1963, passed by that "reactionary lunatic" Harold Macmillan. Governments of both colours have kept to that policy.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thing is, there is a case to be made for the British Museum to acknowledge Greek ownership of the marbles and for the Greek ministry responsible for antiquities to loan them to the museum until such time as they have suitable facilities for their preservation and display. Those kind of loan arrangements have been known to last for decades.

Agreed.

There is in fact political capital to be made from the Marbles by doing such a loan. It's a rare opportunity for us to be a bit magnaminous towards another Western democracy. Who really gives a toss about the Elgin Marbles here?

 

[brad465]

Anyway, the Marbles may not go to Greece. The SNP are demanding they be returned to Elgin.

That's one way to spur investment on the Aberdeen–Inverness line

 

[SuspectUsual]

I'm not sure why this is all being pinned on Sunak, he's just the current incumbent of Number 10 carrying on a long-standing policy.
The act banning the British Museum from disposing of its collection was in 1963, passed by that "reactionary lunatic" Harold Macmillan. Governments of both colours have kept to that policy.

And have all those subsequent PMs cancelled meetings with the Greek PM because the Greeks have reiterated their view that the marbles should be repatriated?

Sunak is proving to be a petulant manchild

 

[renegademaster]

How do you account for the other 'marbles' that the Greeks retained and are proudly displayed if they were all blown up?

Not all of them where in the acropolis which was being neglected by the ottomans and was the site of several battles

 

[simonw]

Not all of them where in the acropolis which was being neglected by the ottomans and was the site of several battles

You asserted that the marbles would have been blown up if they had not been removed. The presence of the overwhelming remainder of the frieze in the museum in Athens shows this is unlikely to be true.

 

[renegademaster]

Theirs no way Greece would agree to some kind of loan or sharing arrangement, the whole point is they want them exhibited in their museum

 

[GusB]

Anyway, the Marbles may not go to Greece. The SNP are demanding they be returned to Elgin.

I very much doubt that the museum here has enough space for them.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Perhaps Rishi is frightened of losing his marbles.

 

[DoubleLemon]

The marbles are not, however, legally owned by Greece.

I believe Greece was occupied at the time and the permission to remove them was not technically by the Greek government.

 

[AM9]

We brought them legitimately (saving them from neglect) from people who did steal them (the Turks).

The other popular stolen historical item people like to whine about , the koh-i-noor , was stolen multiple times before we stole it, so I'm not going to shed many tears about it

If you 'buy' stolen goods, that doesn't alter their title, - they are still legally the property of the person(s) from whom they were stolen. If you knowingly the goods were stolen, you are guilty of handling stolen goods. Even the law in Britain that turned a blind eye to theft of property whilst blatently colonising other nations, still has that as a basic principle of theft law. So whine away about how 'woke' that might seem to a true upright Brit.

 

[gg1]

The wider argument that is used is that if we give the Marbles back we will have to give lots of other things back to the countries that we nicked them from and London will no longer be one of the world’s great cultural and museum centres. In other words, our tourist business is more important than honesty.

It may get to the stage in the not too distant future where refusing to repatriate artifacts such as the Elgin marbles and the Benin bronzes causes more harm than good to the British tourist industry. The one major London museum I've never visited on principle is the British Museum for this reason, and I know I'm far from the only person who's of that opinion.

 

[SuspectUsual]

For me this isn’t really about the rights and wrongs of who owns / keeps the Elgin marbles, it’s about how our government conducts itself.

The government is justifying cancelling a PM to PM meeting because Greece reneged on an agreement not to mention the marbles, something the Greeks say isn’t true.

It’s like something out of a primary school playground argument.

A grown up government would have the meeting, and be prepared to discuss what the other party feels is important, even if the discussion is limited to “no, sorry, you can’t have them back”.

 

[yoyothehobo]

The Greeks already have suitable facilities - there is a museum within minutes of the Acropolis

Home | Acropolis Museum | Official website

The Acropolis Museum, one of the most important museums in the world, houses the findings of only one archaeological site, the Athenian Acropolis and its slopes. The masterpieces that form its collection offer a comprehensive overview of the character and historical course of the site that...

www.theacropolismuseum.gr

This contains the rest of the marbles

Also the Parthenon museum is incredibly more suitable than the British Museum, its beautiful and arranged the same size as the parthenon itself with wonderful views of the parthenon itself.

 

[ainsworth74]

For me this isn’t really about the rights and wrongs of who owns / keeps the Elgin marbles, it’s about how our government conducts itself.

The government is justifying cancelling a PM to PM meeting because Greece reneged on an agreement not to mention the marbles, something the Greeks say isn’t true.

It’s like something out of a primary school playground argument.

A grown up government would have the meeting, and be prepared to discuss what the other party feels is important, even if the discussion is limited to “no, sorry, you can’t have them back”.

Exactly. I don't really care where the Marbles end up (seems to be that it should be in the Parthenon museum personally considering Greece is clearly able to look after them) but the issue for me is that the Government have seemingly cancelled a PM to PM meeting just because the PM didn't like something that the Greek PM said about some ancient artefacts that is hardly a controversial opinion for a Greek politician to hold! As Mr Mitsotakis said himself:

Those who firmly believe in the correctness and justice of their positions are never hesitant to engage in constructive argumentation and debate

Greece denies promising not to raise Parthenon Sculptures on UK visit

No 10 cancelled a meeting between the UK and Greek PMs after comments to the BBC about the sculptures.

www.bbc.co.uk

As far as I'm concerned cancelling a meeting over this just makes Rishi look petty and actually undermines his apparent determination that the should remain London. If he is so sure of himself he should be willing to discuss it with the Greek PM face to face!