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To be fair it'll happen at MKC soon enough for Phase 2. The fares from MKC are an utter mess, with a worthless set of TOC specific fares that differ by pennies.
The vast, vast majority of leisure passengers on the south WCML are Saturday day trips - these passengers, using an Off Peak Day Return, will save £2.40 from Bletchley for instance, and the Travelcard is cheaper too despite the "TfL tax" to be added. The introduction of 3-step wasn't popular - it meant Saturday day trips going up a fair bit, and created a silly anomaly where an Anytime Day Single in and an Off Peak Day Single back was cheaper than an Anytime Day Return by 50p or thereabouts. And it added complexity - when I had difficulty explaining what to buy to someone at the TVM I really did think things were getting rather silly.
The downside is £5 increase for Sunday and evening trippers, of course. The Super Off Peak was useless for more or less anything else because it was swingeingly restricted.
For myself we have:
Now: Anytime Day Single in £23.60, NSE discounted Off Peak Day Single back £14.50, total £38.10
From Dec: Anytime Day Single in £23.10, NSE discounted Anytime Day Single back £15.20, total £38.30
I'm not going to be waving placards about a twenty pence increase, and if I decide to hang around for a cheeky Nando's and go after 1900 then my return would be down to just £10.50, with contactless working both ways as it's below the NSE weekday minimum. And that "off peak single at half the return" thing also means a two day trip into London is reduced by nearly a third.
TBH I approve of this. It's simpler, fairer, clearer and won't cost me more on the vast majority of journeys, and be a fair whack cheaper on some.
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Indeed. If a return doesn't suit, you can just get two singles, and unlike before are not penalised financially for doing so. Another reason single fare pricing is a good thing.
They could I suppose introduce two more returns, each mixing peak and off peak in different directions, but that would probably just cause more confusion, better to keep it simple and only offer returns at one price level which will suit the vast majority of users.
I am not sure that bringing in evening peak restrictions makes sense since covid. Not as many people work 9-5 as they used to, so they can just change their work patterns to get around it, or work from home. It probably would have made more sense to bring in a peak period for Saturday mornings instead. I would not want that to happen at all but it could bring in more revenue for the railway.
I wonder if we will see more ticket checks on trains between 1600-1900, to try and catch people out.
It is to fit in with the way TfL's systems work. The thing they are trying to guard against is paper tickets being cheaper than the Contactless structure, as that would lead to people picking the best of both, depending on which gives the cheaper fare.
I am not sure that bringing in evening peak restrictions makes sense since covid. Not as many people work 9-5 as they used to, so they can just change their work patterns to get around it, or work from home. It probably would have made more sense to bring in a peak period for Saturday mornings instead. I would not want that to happen at all but it could bring in more revenue for the railway.
I wonder if we will see more ticket checks on trains between 1600-1900, to try and catch people out.
As far as I'm aware, the plan is to retain paper fares at prices matched with PAYG so that third-party retailers aren't hurt as badly by the change.
Railcards will be available on the paper tickets, while not being available for Phase 1 of PAYG, which is a but confusing considering part of the rollout is the idea that someone is always charged the best price.
Nobody has clarified the railcard situation. Will those continue to be valid during the evening peak period, albeit at the peak prices? eg Senior railcard only has a morning peak restriction in Network South East.
Nobody has clarified the railcard situation. Will those continue to be valid during the evening peak period, albeit at the peak prices? eg Senior railcard only has a morning peak restriction in Network South East.
Can the government change the conditions of a railcard that was bought previously? Having bought one because of the discount offered, to then unilaterally be told that the discount window is a lot shorter doesn't sound possible to me, but that isn't from a position of expertise
I must be misreading the LNR website - I cannot see any evening restrictions on a Off-peak Travelcard Z1-6 with Senior RC - £16.75 from my station. This compares to the existing Off-peak TC at £18.50 ( with Senior ) - again with no evening restrictions . However it is more than the current Super off-peak TC at £14.90 + SNR with has an evening restriction Monday to Saturday and an extended morning restriction. Almost all my travel is Super Off-peak so personally I will be losing out. I will need to investigate whether breaking the journey at Watford Junction is worthwhile.
Nobody has clarified the railcard situation. Will those continue to be valid during the evening peak period, albeit at the peak prices? eg Senior railcard only has a morning peak restriction in Network South East.
Yes, Railcards are nothing to do with this though you will need (for now) to buy a paper ticket or e-ticket.
It's already worth doing "anytime day single in, anytime day single back with Railcard" for a peak return trip on almost all South East commuter routes, depending on the specific Railcard's restrictions (e.g. the £13 minimum Network Railcard fare means that isn't useful on shorter trips).
I cannot see any evening restrictions on a Off-peak Travelcard Z1-6 with Senior RC - £16.75 from my station. This compares to the existing Off-peak TC at £18.50 ( with Senior ) - again with no evening restrictions .
From what I can see, it doesn't appear that the evening peak restrictions extend to off-peak travelcards.
This would be logical if so, since the TfL structure treats the travelcard as a cap on fares after 0930. Therefore, there is effectively a Zone 1 centric cap on the charging of peak fares after 0930.
They could I suppose introduce two more returns, each mixing peak and off peak in different directions, but that would probably just cause more confusion, better to keep it simple and only offer returns at one price level which will suit the vast majority of users.
I think I'd argue that if you want simplicity in a World where a return just costs the same as two singles, it would arguably be simpler to just scrap return tickets altogether, and move to a system where it's understood that, if you want to make a return trip, then you buy two singles.
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One difference though is that TfL peak fares are typically only about 25-30% more expensive than off-peak fares - or in absolute terms, only £1 or so more expensive - I'd imagine that's not a big enough difference to cause that many people retime their evening journeys to save money, hence you don't get the problem of TfL services suddenly being super-busy immediately after 7pm. Some of the new national rail fares being quoted in this thread show peak fares twice the off-peak fare, which to my mind is a ridiculously high differential.
I think I'd argue that if you want simplicity in a World where a return just costs the same as two singles, it would arguably be simpler to just scrap return tickets altogether, and move to a system where it's understood that, if you want to make a return trip, then you buy two singles.
I half wonder if the reason they didn't do this is to avoid mass controversy with Railcard users who would have their Railcard rendered close to useless in some cases due to minimum fare levels. That doesn't apply as much to LNER because of their fares being higher.
Having said that, Merseyrail rendered Railcards mostly useless with relatively little complaint.
I am not sure that bringing in evening peak restrictions makes sense since covid. Not as many people work 9-5 as they used to, so they can just change their work patterns to get around it, or work from home. It probably would have made more sense to bring in a peak period for Saturday mornings instead. I would not want that to happen at all but it could bring in more revenue for the railway.
I rather agree about abolishing the evening peak period. If you just had one peak period in the morning, that would represent a huge simplification to passengers trying to work out the best ticket to buy, and also reduce the number of people who end up travelling on an invalid ticket due to genuine misunderstanding on their part. I think that advantage would be sufficient to outweigh the disadvantage of more crowded trains in the evening peak. Besides, even before Covid, the evening peak was more spread out than the morning peak in terms of times that businesses closed and people needed to get home, so I think the justification for higher fares of making services less crowded was less for the evening peak.
Besides, we've managed well enough up till now with off-peak tickets valid in the evening peak on many routes around London - so surely we can continue to manage with that system?
I rather agree about abolishing the evening peak period. If you just had one peak period in the morning, that would represent a huge simplification to passengers trying to work out the best ticket to buy, and also reduce the number of people who end up travelling on an invalid ticket due to genuine misunderstanding on their part. I think that advantage would be sufficient to outweigh the disadvantage of more crowded trains in the evening peak. Besides, even before Covid, the evening peak was more spread out than the morning peak in terms of times that businesses closed and people needed to get home, so I think the justification for higher fares of making services less crowded was less for the evening peak.
Besides, we've managed well enough up till now with off-peak tickets valid in the evening peak on many routes around London - so surely we can continue to manage with that system?
The problem is that that doesn't work with single-leg pricing as you'd either suddenly have a price cut of about 30% on a peak day return or would have to make the Anytime Day Single VERY expensive. And contactless requires single-leg pricing to work on the TfL system.
The problem is that that doesn't work with single-leg pricing as you'd either suddenly have a price cut of about 30% on a peak day return or would have to make the Anytime Day Single VERY expensive. And contactless requires single-leg pricing to work on the TfL system.
I think that explains why TOCs/the accountants at the DfT would want to introduce evening peak periods: They want to avoid the revenue loss that they think single leg pricing would otherwise entail. My suspicion is that the bean-counters haven't taken account of that the resultant simpler/cheaper fares would be likely to increase passenger numbers, plus simplifying fares might mean lower admin costs selling tickets (for example, it becomes more realistic to close some ticket offices). But maybe, my argument for getting rid of the evening peak period is more of an argument for what would be ideal on a better-managed railway, rather than an argument for what's doable in current circumstances with all the restrictions the DfT imposes etc.
Nobody has clarified the railcard situation. Will those continue to be valid during the evening peak period, albeit at the peak prices? eg Senior railcard only has a morning peak restriction in Network South East.
There has never been any suggestion that railcard validity will be changing. However, it may be the case that in future, when railcards can be applied to contactless payment, they do not apply to 'peak' contactless fares as is currently the case with Oyster.
I can see some passengers only buying a single to get to London, and maybe dodging the fare on the return if they live at a station with no barriers (ie Leighton Buzzard) or they know the barriers are only staffed until a certain time.
I can see some passengers only buying a single to get to London, and maybe dodging the fare on the return if they live at a station with no barriers (ie Leighton Buzzard) or they know the barriers are only staffed until a certain time.
Do people do that now? For south WCML Anytime tickets, the singles are already half the return and have been for some time (though they weren't always).
I wonder if contactless might actually reduce fare dodging because tapping in is easy, passive and distracts you from the actual cost.
Besides, we've managed well enough up till now with off-peak tickets valid in the evening peak on many routes around London - so surely we can continue to manage with that system?
Because the majority of commuters buy returns as two singles is currently more expensive. therefore those arriving into London around 9am and leaving around 5pm currently buy an anytime return. With single pricing at half a return then without an evening peak price then it would drop the price significantly so less revenue to the TOC/DfT.
Do people do that now? For south WCML Anytime tickets, the singles are already half the return and have been for some time (though they weren't always).
I wonder if contactless might actually reduce fare dodging because tapping in is easy, passive and distracts you from the actual cost.
Not on the WCML it isn't (if we're talking commuters). The fares used to be asymmetric, with a single into London being half the return but a single back being priced rather higher, presumably to prevent the "single in, Network Railcard single back" thing, but this was changed quite some time ago.
Contactless pay as you go is being extended to 53 National Rail stations across the South East including 12 South Western Railway stations.
In preparation for the launch of contactless pay as you go, from 3rd December the following changes will apply to journeys where contactless pay as you go will be available (from these stations and into and around London Zones 1-9).
Tickets purchased for travel from 3rd December are now priced and carry restrictions based on the new structure.
Changes to Peak and Off Peak times
For journeys where contactless is available, fares into and around London will be based on the following times and are determined by the departure time of your train(s), not by when you purchase your ticket.
* Morning peak fares are charged 04:30 to 09:30, Monday to Friday
* Evening peak fares are charged 16.00 to 19.00, Monday to Friday when travelling from or via any station within the London Zones 1-9.
* Off-peak fares are charged at all other times.
Tickets need to be valid for every train you’re travelling on. If you change trains during your journey and the departure time of any of your trains is in the peak period, you will need to buy an Anytime ticket.
Please note: when contactless pay as you go launches later this year, there will be slight variation in the morning peak times when using contactless – more information will be provided prior to the launch
Changes to Fares & Ticketing
For journeys where contactless will be available, there are some adjustments to fares and tickets:
* Fares will be calculated as single journeys, with the single fares costing half of a return ticket.
* Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets will no longer be available, however for most journeys the Off Peak ticket will be cheaper than the current Off Peak fare.
It says the changes to paper/e-tickets are based on the new contactless structure but if so that base is only very loosely applied.
Questions
1. Will contactless morning peak begin at 0630 or 0430 in the extended area?
2 Will it still be ok to change trains on contactless in the new area (and possibly pass through a gate line) and be charged the off peak fare even if it’s peak at change point but was off peak when touched in.
3. By departure time (paper / e-tickets), is that advertised departure time or actual departure time?
4. Will there be a contactless daily cap from the new area? How will it be applied if you touched in off peak pre 0630 (assuming that is the contactless change point) and then made all your other journeys off peak after 0930 and outside of 1600-1900. Will details of this cap be advertised?
5. There are some journeys (possibly outside of the new area so this may be a moot point) where network cards and/or off peak become valid quite early based on the arrival time at a London Terminal. Presumably all that is now to be undone?
I ask the above because this really is not clear from the extract and nothing would surprise me.
2 Will it still be ok to change trains on contactless in the new area (and possibly pass through a gate line) and be charged the off peak fare even if it’s peak at change point but was off peak when touched in.
It's always been advertised time for paper tickets. Though enforcing it if a train is heavily delayed is a bit jobsworthy and given the lack of on-board checks relatively unlikely.
4. Will there be a contactless daily cap from the new area? How will it be applied if you touched in off peak pre 0630 (assuming that is the contactless change point) and then made all your other journeys off peak after 0930 and outside of 1600-1900. Will details of this cap be advertised?
5. There are some journeys (possibly outside of the new area so this may be a moot point) where network cards and/or off peak become valid quite early based on the arrival time at a London Terminal. Presumably all that is now to be undone?
Railcards are largely unaffected at this stage because they aren't applicable to contactless, to use them you will need to use a paper or e-ticket. There is one exception - within the SE the Family and Friends Railcard can only be used after the morning peak and so its validity will change slightly to being valid from 0930 on affected routes. In a lot of cases this will be an improvement in validity rather than a reduction.
2 Will it still be ok to change trains on contactless in the new area (and possibly pass through a gate line) and be charged the off peak fare even if it’s peak at change point but was off peak when touched in.
I believe that as is the case now, it would be necessary to use separate cards or other 'tricks' to divide a journey into peak and off-peak fare sections, if starting at peak time. If you start at an off-peak time the whole journey will be charged at off-peak rates.
That can depend on how a specific restriction is worded. It appears that for journeys in the extended contactless area the restriction states "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30", so it is the advertised departure time that counts.
5. There are some journeys (possibly outside of the new area so this may be a moot point) where network cards and/or off peak become valid quite early based on the arrival time at a London Terminal. Presumably all that is now to be undone?
It's always been advertised time for paper tickets. Though enforcing it if a train is heavily delayed is a bit jobsworthy and given the lack of on-board checks relatively unlikely.
Not sure I'm afraid.
Railcards are largely unaffected at this stage because they aren't applicable to contactless, to use them you will need to use a paper or e-ticket. There is one exception - within the SE the Family and Friends Railcard can only be used after the morning peak and so its validity will change slightly to being valid from 0930 on affected routes. In a lot of cases this will be an improvement in validity rather than a reduction.
Thanks for this. Re the last point I was thinking about railcards on paper tickets which used to be accepted (I think) earlier on certain paper flows.
That is really very disappointing that the contactless peak begins at 0430. Another point of confusion after two decades of the Oyster (and more recently) contacted 0630-0930 morning peak hours.
If you travel from London pre 0630 to the new area presumably you are still charged off peak.
Just a gentle reminder this is a thread to discuss the implentation of Project Oval; if anyone would like to propose changes to fares, these suggestions should be in the Speculative Discussion section. Thanks
4. Will there be a contactless daily cap from the new area? How will it be applied if you touched in off peak pre 0630 (assuming that is the contactless change point) and then made all your other journeys off peak after 0930 and outside of 1600-1900. Will details of this cap be advertised?
As I recall from meetings I was in at the early stages of Project Oval, there will be caps for journeys that go into the London zones, but not for those that remain outside of the zones. This can also be confirmed on @MikeWh's excellent Oyster Fares Central website, where the fare finder shows that a Reading to Twyford journey using contactless does not have an applicable cap. For straightforward out and back journeys I doubt it matters too much, as it isn't much different to paper tickets
This can also be confirmed on @MikeWh's excellent Oyster Fares Central website, where the fare finder shows that a Reading to Twyford journey using contactless does not have an applicable cap.
Presumably it is capped by the Zone 1 centric cap if someone made enough journeys in a given day? Or does there have to be a touch out / in within Zone 6 for that cap to apply?
Presumably it is capped by the Zone 1 centric cap if someone made enough journeys in a given day? Or does there have to be a touch out / in within Zone 6 for that cap to apply?
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