Should USB-C ports be fitted to trains?

[snalty]

Apple has been late joining the USB-C charging compared to most, high end laptops and Android devices which have had it for years.

This is definitely true of the phones and to a lesser extent the tablets, but Apple went in hard on USB-C on their laptops much earlier than any other company.

 

[mike57]

First of all, USB C - USB C cables as used by latest phones to charge can be fitted with an adapter to plug in to a USB A charging socket and will charge quite happily, all be it at a slower rate depending upon socket capability. The issue comes if you need the higher USB PD spec charging capability as currently you need a special charger, even chargers with USB C output are usually rated 5v at 2.4A which is not USB PD spec.

I have a Samsung S22 Ultra, SWMBO has an Iphone 14 pro, in both cases when we are travelling by train using a USB A to phone charging cable results in slow charging which with intensive phone use can be glacial. When I am going out for the day (or longer) I just pop a USB A to C cable in my pocket.

I think the issue is people dont think ahead. I always charge my phone overnight, but have selected the 90% max charge option to reduce battery stress. So I start with a charged phone. When I am on the train and my phone is anything below about 80% I charge it (back to 90%) so instead of starting with a nearly dead phone I have a good few hours of intensive use available at all times. If its going to be a long day I also have a small power bank which is about 100 x 40 x 20mm, again slips in the pocket or bag

Personally I am quite happy having USB A outlets, my trusty cable in my pocket, (until I get off and leave it in the socket, managed to do this on the new Mk5 stock where the socket is buried under the seat). USB A is going to be around for a long time.

Where more power is needed e.g. for a laptop, the 13A socket does the job, as you will probably carry your power adapter anyway if travelling with a laptop.

Interestingly the new Northern trains dont seem to have USB A only 13A which I find surprising.

Watching a video on the latest Chinese high speed trains these have a wireless charging pad built in, as do I think the latest OBB sleeper stock, this has to be the best option if your phone supports wireless charging

 

[sor]

There's the "but EU said so" argument and there's also Apple moving exactly as they themselves planned - Lightning was billed as a connector for 10 years in 2012, and in 2023 they've now transitioned away on almost every device. The tablets were switched over years ago as they came up for major redesigns (or because the increased data speed was important, in the case of the iPad Pro) and as said the laptops went even longer ago. IIRC Apple played a hand in designing USB-C using their experience gained from Lightning & its reversibility.

As for the topic - I think it's one of those where it should be done properly or not at all. We should not see new trains or major refurbs where the only non-230V option is a USB-A port with a paltry wattage. Costs come down if you want to order hundreds of the things. I don't think we should see more of the example of that Elizabeth Line train with brand new USB-A ports, especially in an environment where journey times are short and fast charging is highly beneficial.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is definitely true of the phones and to a lesser extent the tablets, but Apple went in hard on USB-C on their laptops much earlier than any other company.

Then back to MagSafe on the Pro at least, but you can still charge from a USB-C in any of the sockets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

As for the topic - I think it's one of those where it should be done properly or not at all. We should not see new trains or major refurbs where the only non-230V option is a USB-A port with a paltry wattage. Costs come down if you want to order hundreds of the things. I don't think we should see more of the example of that Elizabeth Line train with brand new USB-A ports, especially in an environment where journey times are short and fast charging is highly beneficial.

As I said, older DMUs in particular don't have the alternator capacity for anything better.

I've not seen dual A and C faceplates yet, and C faceplates are still expensive. Couple that with that most people do have an A-to-C cable and relatively few are using C-to-C so far, I reckon I'd stick with A and 230V, then in a year or two swap the faceplates as C becomes the norm and the faceplates are cheaper. It doesn't affect how you wire the train where 230V is also provided, the transformer is in the faceplate, same as domestic ones.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I made this point not long back in a thread on the 323 refurb for Northern, and was robustly put in my place by some members who, apparently, had no devices which were USB C (in contrast, literally all of ours are in this household).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

most people do have an A-to-C cable and relatively few are using C-to-C so far

It really would be interesting to see statistics on this, because I find statements like this baffling.

My android phone - USB C
My partner's android phone (different brand) - USB C
My 3 sets of bluetooth earbuds (2 different brands) - USB C
My partner's bluetooth earbuds (another different brand) - USB C
My partner's smartwatch - USB C (this is the only one that came with an A-C cable)
4 different handheld games consoles - 2 different brands - all USB C
My work laptop - USB C (secondary to it's proprietary charger)
Two QI wireless charger/batteries - USB C

There's probably more!

All of them are charged off USB C chargers (or my work laptop) with C-C cables, except the watch, which is a few years old and has a A-C cable.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Wait there is more than one type of USB charger these days? Who decided that? Madness.

Everything I own has a USB connector. Surely that’s enough? For me trains should just have a plug.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It really would be interesting to see statistics on this, because I find statements like this baffling.

My android phone - USB C
My partner's android phone (different brand) - USB C
My 3 sets of bluetooth earbuds (2 different brands) - USB C
My partner's bluetooth earbuds (another different brand) - USB C
My partner's smartwatch - USB C (this is the only one that came with an A-C cable)
4 different handheld games consoles - 2 different brands - all USB C
My work laptop - USB C (secondary to it's proprietary charger)
Two QI wireless charger/batteries - USB C

There's probably more!

All of them are charged off USB C chargers (or my work laptop) with C-C cables, except the watch, which is a few years old and has a A-C cable.

Phones no longer come with chargers. All my chargers bar one are A, and that'll be true of most people because they'll have the ones that came with their previous devices when you used to get them included, or they'll have bought stuff like A multiways (C multiways are still quite pricey and not that common), plus power banks etc which are now starting to have C out but it's still not the norm (both of my Ankers have C for in only). I'm not buying new ones, and I won't be alone in that. I don't need fast charge at home, my phone and iPad are put on charge all night, each night. Plus anyone who has smartphones/tablets and has had for years has a drawer full of A-to-C cables.

There'll be a time when C-to-C dominates but it's not yet. One to two years I reckon, maybe three, by then faceplates will be cheap and it'll be time to consider swapping them, but DMUs will still only offer low amperage output (0.5 or 1A) because the alternator is the constraint.

 

[D365]

I've not seen dual A and C faceplates yet, and C faceplates are still expensive.

There are railway electronics suppliers that offer these.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are railway electronics suppliers that offer these.

In which case, take "expensive" and raise it to the 99th power!

 

[D365]

In which case, take "expensive" and raise it to the 99th power!

You could count on one hand - maybe two at a push - the number of suppliers that can offer off-the-shelf hardware which is electrically ’certified’ for ex-British Rail rolling stock!

 

[Energy]

There are railway electronics suppliers that offer these.

Indeed, LPA Group already has a rail-compliant power socket with a 20W USB C.

Their documentation isn't brilliant so it isn't clear whether its 20W each or whether it's shared between the USB A/C (A can go up to 9V with QuickCharge).

Phones no longer come with chargers. All my chargers bar one are A, and that'll be true of most people because they'll have the ones that came with their previous devices when you used to get them included, or they'll have bought stuff like A multiways (C multiways are still quite pricey and not that common), plus power banks etc which are now starting to have C out but it's still not the norm (both of my Ankers have C for in only). I'm not buying new ones, and I won't be alone in that. I don't need fast charge at home, my phone and iPad are put on charge all night, each night. Plus anyone who has smartphones/tablets and has had for years has a drawer full of A-to-C cables.

There'll be a time when C-to-C dominates but it's not yet. One to two years I reckon, maybe three, by then faceplates will be cheap and it'll be time to consider swapping them, but DMUs will still only offer low amperage output (0.5 or 1A) because the alternator is the constraint.

C is already fairly common, my parents are probably about 50/50. Its not difficult or expensive to offer both, its only expensive to provide the 45+W USB PD outlets.

Given the rest of the cost of train refurbishments, the slight extra cost of the outlet isn't a lot...

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Watching a video on the latest Chinese high speed trains these have a wireless charging pad built in, as do I think the latest OBB sleeper stock, this has to be the best option if your phone supports wireless charging

As do the tables on the fantastic refurbished Pendolinos.

 

[stuu]

Phones no longer come with chargers.

"Some" phones no longer come with chargers. My son got a new phone just last week which came with a charger (67W). And a USB A-C cable to connect it

 

[Nym]

Indeed, LPA Group already has a rail-compliant power socket with a 20W USB C.

Their documentation isn't brilliant so it isn't clear whether its 20W each or whether it's shared between the USB A/C (A can go up to 9V with QuickCharge).

View attachment 147425

C is already fairly common, my parents are probably about 50/50. Its not difficult or expensive to offer both, its only expensive to provide the 45+W USB PD outlets.

Given the rest of the cost of train refurbishments, the slight extra cost of the outlet isn't a lot...

Given that this one is likely fed with 230V AC though, it's not "Compatible" with BR standards. (RIA-12 does not apply to AC supplies).

Given the manufacturer of this though, I would expect it to be exceedingly expensive.

 

[sor]

As I said, older DMUs in particular don't have the alternator capacity for anything better.

No meaningful difference in load between me plugging in my laptop charger and using one built into the train, though. It’s not as if the expectation is that it must be a 240W output (or whatever USB-C now supports) - 40-80W will cover phones, tablets and most laptops

However - I did say “new trains and major refurbs”

I've not seen dual A and C faceplates yet, and C faceplates are still expensive. Couple that with that most people do have an A-to-C cable and relatively few are using C-to-C so far, I reckon I'd stick with A and 230V, then in a year or two swap the faceplates as C becomes the norm and the faceplates are cheaper. It doesn't affect how you wire the train where 230V is also provided, the transformer is in the faceplate, same as domestic ones.

Chicken and egg. No one wants them (on trains) so those who can provide “approved” faceplates will quote the earth, so no one wants them, so…

 

[Bletchleyite]

No meaningful difference in load between me plugging in my laptop charger and using one built into the train, though. It’s not as if the expectation is that it must be a 240W output (or whatever USB-C now supports) - 40-80W will cover phones, tablets and most laptops

I am talking about classes 150 and 156 which only have USB As and no 230V. On a train that has 230V it's just the case of a faceplate swap.

 

[Nym]

I am talking about classes 150 and 156 which only have USB As and no 230V. On a train that has 230V it's just the case of a faceplate swap.

Except on the 150 and 156... Where is this power going to come from, you'd have to apply a heck of a lot of diversity to get even an up lift to 30 or 60W per faceplate on the 156.

There isn't an infinite amount of power available from the alternators on these old beasts, for the same reason we're not seeing other things on 1972TS that would be nice to fit, we're extremely unlikely to see any extra comfort items on the Class 15x and 16x fleets unless they're retractioned.

FYI, the Sprinters have roughly 8kW alternators to run everything, and there's a lot to run.

 

[JamesT]

I made this point not long back in a thread on the 323 refurb for Northern, and was robustly put in my place by some members who, apparently, had no devices which were USB C (in contrast, literally all of ours are in this household).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==



It really would be interesting to see statistics on this, because I find statements like this baffling.

My android phone - USB C
My partner's android phone (different brand) - USB C
My 3 sets of bluetooth earbuds (2 different brands) - USB C
My partner's bluetooth earbuds (another different brand) - USB C
My partner's smartwatch - USB C (this is the only one that came with an A-C cable)
4 different handheld games consoles - 2 different brands - all USB C
My work laptop - USB C (secondary to it's proprietary charger)
Two QI wireless charger/batteries - USB C

There's probably more!

All of them are charged off USB C chargers (or my work laptop) with C-C cables, except the watch, which is a few years old and has a A-C cable.

I’m more in the USB-C world now I’ve swapped out my iPad Air 3 (Lightning) for a 5 (USB-C). This has also prompted me to get chargers with USB-C on that end as the iPad can make use of faster charging rates. I still have various devices using other ports, e.g. Garmin smartwatch has their own connector; sunrise alarm clock, Bluetooth headphones, and power bank use micro-b.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/...st-have-the-same-charging-port-in-world-first references a slightly old study, but many of those devices will still be in use.

Half the chargers sold with mobile phones in 2018 had a USB micro-B connector, while 29 per cent had a USB-C connector and 21 per cent a Lightning connector, according to a 2019 Commission study.

If you’re buying flagship devices and hadn’t gone into the Apple world I can believe all your kit will have been USB-C for a while, but down the cheaper end there has still been some variation.

 

[birchesgreen]

Apple charger cables have for a very long time had USB A on one end. I think only the very early ones used Firewire, but that went away fairly quickly.

The newest ones are USB C, but as phones are no longer supplied with a charger relatively few people will have them. It's quite a nice design with folding pins, to be fair, good for carrying in a pocket for use on the train if you need to! (I have one as it was supplied with my iPad but I'm not sure they do any more).

Phones don't come with the charger anymore.

 

[takno]

If you’re buying flagship devices and hadn’t gone into the Apple world I can believe all your kit will have been USB-C for a while, but down the cheaper end there has still been some variation.

I'm terms of phones you'd be going pretty low-end by 2019, and pretty much all new models would be USB-C by 2020. Low end Bluetooth headphones and the like have been at least 80% USB-C for a couple of years as well.

All of this is fairly irrelevant of course, since it's reasonably easy to provide both sockets, and indeed all of them can be interconnected using a couple of quids worth of adapters. The important thing here is to provide the higher power profiles rather than demanding one true plug shape

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except on the 150 and 156... Where is this power going to come from, you'd have to apply a heck of a lot of diversity to get even an up lift to 30 or 60W per faceplate on the 156.

Confused, as I was saying:

1. On trains that have 230V, it's just a faceplate swap
2. On 150/156 it's not possible at all (you could swap the faceplate for USB C sockets but they won't output any more than the low wattage the As do now)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2023 ==

If you’re buying flagship devices and hadn’t gone into the Apple world I can believe all your kit will have been USB-C for a while, but down the cheaper end there has still been some variation.

There is as I said a difference between the device end being USB C (which is where most people are by now) and the charger end being USB C (possibly never for my bedside multiway charger and the similar one I take to hotels - it works, why would I change it?)

I think there must be some misinformed people who think A-to-C cables don't exist or somehow don't work, or that fast charging is essential in all cases when it isn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2023 ==

All of this is fairly irrelevant of course, since it's reasonably easy to provide both sockets, and indeed all of them can be interconnected using a couple of quids worth of adapters. The important thing here is to provide the higher power profiles rather than demanding one true plug shape

Which is possible on trains where 230V sockets are provided, but not on those where it's just USB As, as it's only that because of limited alternator capacity. So Classes 150 and 156 will never have high power USBs of any format.

 

[jon0844]

Phones don't come with the charger anymore.

A lot still do, especially phones with proprietary chargers that can offer 60/67/68, 80, 100, 120 and even 240W charging.

 

[birchesgreen]

A lot still do, especially phones with proprietary chargers that can offer 60/67/68, 80, 100, 120 and even 240W charging.

Yes should have prefixed my post with "i" as we were talking about iPhones.

 

[Mikey C]

My Google Pixel phone (2.5 years old) came with a C to C lead with a USB C plug. I subsequently bought other leads, including a C to A lead which I carry around with me, as nearly all public charging is via USB A. Plus I have a powerbank anyway, which charges everything!

Interestingly my new Lenovo tablet (bought a couple of weeks ago) came with a C to A lead, with a USB A plug. But it can be charged via C to C using the other cable.

USB A is perfectly adequate for charging phones and tablets. Anyone lugging around a laptop will surely also carry around a plug anyway?

 

[jon0844]

I'd rather not need to carry a mains adapter, but I don't expect power on buses, trains or planes to provide 65W or more to charge a laptop. If it can power it, that's still a benefit. If it charges slow then that's still good for a long distance trip.

I expect in the future we'll see everything move to USB Power Delivery and even 30 or 45W would suffice for most.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect in the future we'll see everything move to USB Power Delivery and even 30 or 45W would suffice for most.

In time I suspect so, because if nothing else it'll prevent people plugging in hairdryers and the likes, but it'll be a while before that'll be possible as plenty of people are still using laptops with traditional barrel connectors, and those users will be more in need of on-board power than those with modern laptops which tend to have far better battery life, e.g. 8+ hours on the Macbook Pro.

 

[jon0844]

While Apple was slow to change the iPhone connector, it had been using USB-C for some time for other devices and was perhaps one of the companies responsible for making USB-C as popular as it is today. Clearly it wanted to retain the 'made for iPhone' revenue stream for as long as possible, but now it has simply opted to make a high-speed cable to offer the full data transfer speed at a crazy price (and most iPhone users will likely believe they should use an official Apple cable to stop it blowing up or something). Gotta protect that easy money!

And other companies have adopted USB-C for some time too, even laptops with DC chargers also fitted (possibly for businesses that have got lots of legacy chargers and docks). My wife has a Dell laptop that has a DC input and a USB-A dock, but it also has a USB-C and will charge from that fine.

Perhaps very, very low end laptops still don't have USB-C but every six months the number of devices on sale must reduce quite a bit, and I wonder if people who need to get work done on a train are more likely to have a modern machine than an ancient one?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but they are also more likely to have a machine that doesn't need plugging in anyway.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I have noticed on some of my CL. 720 journeys that some the USB sockets don't seem to work or accept the USB-A charging cord. Very random as the charging cord will fit some sockets but not others. It's as if some of the USB sockets on the train are damaged in some way

 

[Russel]

Just do away with USB sockets on public transport all together.

The amount of USB ports I've tried that haven't worked, yet the 3 pin socket has worked, makes me think they probably aren't robust enough for use on public transport.

Most of the time now, I don't even attempt the USB socket and just go straight for the standard 3 pin socket.