Open Access Operator for Newark North Gate

[YorkRailFan]

Why Lumo? Newark already has a perfectly satisfactory service to Edinburgh and Newcastle, and I highly doubt that there is great demand between Newark and Morpeth, or indeed Lincoln and Morpeth.

Before the bi-modes came in, what I believe are now the Lincoln Central services terminated in Platform 3 at North Gate.

From my experience of people in Lincoln/passenger flows in Lincoln, the main demand that remained untapped when I lived nearby was to Kings Cross and back. Now that's there, I don't see what else could be improved except possibly a better service to Doncaster for connections there, or even just retiming of the Doncaster services so they alternate with the North Gate services (as opposed to two broadly two-hourly services leaving fairly close together) for ECML connections. In short, Lincoln is basically sorted, short of building a new railway. Newark is very well-equipped for intercity services, and Lincoln is very well-equipped for local services, so they complement each other. Again, I can't see any real benefit to making anything else stop at Newark - everything vaguely realistic is already dealt with, especially if you're coming from Lincoln (which certainly used to be a large part of the catchment area for intercities, no idea if that's changed).

So people from Newark might want to go there after all?

Are you using some kind of reverse of what I call the Heritage Act logic, the Act in question meaning that no museum object can be restituted unless they are 100% confident that nobody, ever, present or future, teacher or student, will have any interest in said object? I.e., that a service should exist as you are not 100% confident that nobody, ever, present or future, will use the service?

If anyone from Newark wants to go to Sunderland, they can change easily at York. For Bradford, change at Doncaster and Leeds. While it is a pain not having regular weekday LNER services from Newark North Gate to Leeds, an OAO proposing to run Leeds-Kings Cross stopping at Newark would a) have a job filling up seats considering they presumably wouldn't be allowed to call anywhere else (except somewhere like Huntingdon) and b) not get off the ground anyway.

Newark and Lincoln are perfectly adequately served by LNER and the regional stopping services. OAOs aren't sweeties, the good people of Newark won't get annoyed at not having an equal share.

I am confident that people would use a service if the price and timings allowed. Because Lumo seems to be the best option for a more frequent service to London that could have demand for Newark passengers to Edinburgh instead of GC and HT, with HT being the least likely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

So they are now both a starting point AND a potential market! Moving goalposts again!

I've always suggested that.

 

[NSE]

I am confident that people would use a service if the price and timings allowed. Because Lumo seems to be the best option for a more frequent service to London that could have demand for Newark passengers to Edinburgh instead of GC and HT, with HT being the least likely.

But what I don’t get, and you haven’t really answered, is why this needs to come from an OAO? Lumo operate 4 (?) trains a day. Presumably they wouldn’t stop all at Newark due to wanting at least one to have the ‘headline grabbing’ time to try and push their USP, which leaves two or three trains a day to stop at Newark. If you trumpet a big new announcement of extra trains from Newark to London, I can’t help but feel people would be a bit let down when it’s just two or three. I don’t doubt that there are non-enthusiast residents of Newark wishing for a more reliable service, but I’m struggling to be convinced they would not be satisfied with some extra LNER stops.

I still think that’s unnecessary anyway as I think Newark is well served as it is.

 

[YorkRailFan]

But what I don’t get, and you haven’t really answered, is why this needs to come from an OAO? Lumo operate 4 (?) trains a day. Presumably they wouldn’t stop all at Newark due to wanting at least one to have the ‘headline grabbing’ time to try and push their USP, which leaves two or three trains a day to stop at Newark. If you trumpet a big new announcement of extra trains from Newark to London, I can’t help but feel people would be a bit let down when it’s just two or three. I don’t doubt that there are non-enthusiast residents of Newark wishing for a more reliable service, but I’m struggling to be convinced they would not be satisfied with some extra LNER stops.

I still think that’s unnecessary anyway as I think Newark is well served as it is.

To have competition to LNER, so that LNER has more competition on pricing, comfort and reliability.

 

[JonathanH]

Because Lumo seems to be the best option for a more frequent service to London

Lumo operates five trains a day in each direction, almost all at times when there is plenty of capacity on LNER services.

To have competition to LNER, so that LNER has more competition on pricing, comfort and reliability.

Five trains a day at fairly random times, one of them at the very extreme of the day, does not provide tangible competition to LNER.

 

[skyhigh]

To have competition to LNER, so that LNER has more competition on pricing, comfort and reliability.

Right, but LNER already have competition on the routes they serve? They're not going to increase comfort somehow because an open access gets an additional stop.

I'm not sure it'll make much difference on reliability.

Price is a fair point but will an open access really charge lower fares when it'll result in blocking a seat for a full journey and associated fare? Particularly if the trains are not at useful times.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Right, but LNER already have competition on the routes they serve? They're not going to increase comfort somehow because an open access gets an additional stop.

I'm not sure it'll make much difference on reliability.

Price is a fair point but will an open access really charge lower fares when it'll result in blocking a seat for a full journey and associated fare? Particularly if the trains are not at useful times.

If an OAO were to serve Newark, especially Lumo, it wouldn't be after say 10pm like some of Lumo's services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

Lumo operates five trains a day in each direction, almost all at times when there is plenty of capacity on LNER services.
Five trains a day at fairly random times, one of them at the very extreme of the day, does not provide tangible competition to LNER.

Lumo services would likely only stop at Newark between roughly 7am and 9:30pm.

 

[ChrisC]

For its size, Newark has a pretty good provision of service. LNER offers a pretty decent service anyway. Two trains an hour to London, that's the same level of service as Sheffield and Nottingham, which in my opinion is excellent. It also has a direct service to Lincoln, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh, which makes changing trains pretty easy.

Not forgetting that around the corner you can get an EMR train to Nottingham, Derby, Crewe, Leicester and Grimsby.
frustrated!

I agree that Newark already does have a good provision of services. It may be a bit of a pain not having direct trains to Leeds but it isn’t really that much of a problem to change at Doncaster. Newark is far better served with trains to the north than Grantham. It really is a pain having so few direct trains from Grantham to Newcastle and Edinburgh. Journeys from Nottingham to Newcastle and Edinburgh would be so much easier with just one change of train at Grantham. It would also reduce the number of passengers from Nottingham having to travel via Sheffield on EMR and XC.

 

[skyhigh]

If an OAO were to serve Newark, especially Lumo, it wouldn't be after say 10pm like some of Lumo's services.

What does this mean?

 

[The Planner]

This seems to be a relatively small hill that the OP is trying to die on here.

 

[YorkRailFan]

What does this mean?

Lumo has a service that passes through Newark after 11pm, if Lumo were to call at Newark, this service wouldn't call at Newark as there would be hardly any passengers willing to board at that time.

 

[Purple Train]

To have competition to LNER, so that LNER has more competition on pricing, comfort and reliability.

So, actually, it's not about "potential markets", it's about competition for existing markets?

I don't know who the people from Newark and Lincoln you've spoken to are, but I have family in Lincoln and they have always found the service into London from North Gate brilliant, and frequent enough to meet their needs. If you want an improvement in comfort, then don't try Lumo (basically the same train). If you want an improvement in pricing, then, frankly, tough - quibbling over £13 for a journey that's around the £100 mark is hardly something to base a reasonable open access operator on. If you want an improvement in reliability, well, avoid Grand Central.

This leaves Hull Trains as the only possible option, or a new OAO that, as has been discussed previously on the thread, wouldn't get off the ground. Now, in terms of potential markets that aren't or might be (could you clarify what you've meant by potential markets please, as it's definitely confused me?!) Hull could potentially be viable, but it wouldn't be. Newark North Gate is, as I've said, essentially a parkway for much of the surrounding area, and a large chunk of its custom is Lincoln. From Lincoln, it's already possible to, which much less fuss than stopping an HT train additionally at Newark, drive or take the train to Retford and pick it up there. So an HT stopping at Newark North Gate would only really tap into almost exactly the same market as it does at Retford.

Again, I don't know whether your Lincoln correspondents have a different definition of reliability to mine, but the perception I gain from them is that the existing LNER service is frequent, reliable, and trustworthy, with all the possible places they would like to go to northbound and southbound covered easily, even though some require a change. This is not a position that any of the other stations along this section were in before OAO came along, except for Peterborough, which, if I recall correctly, is only being allowed because the GC services in question are looped there anyway. They pass North Gate at 125mph.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[DarloRich]

You said they were potential markets. Like I said, moving goalposts.

the OP uses the term "potential markets" to mean 1 or more customers. It is a very wide definition of that phrase!

 

[YorkRailFan]

So, actually, it's not about "potential markets", it's about competition for existing markets?

I don't know who the people from Newark and Lincoln you've spoken to are, but I have family in Lincoln and they have always found the service into London from North Gate brilliant, and frequent enough to meet their needs. If you want an improvement in comfort, then don't try Lumo (basically the same train). If you want an improvement in pricing, then, frankly, tough - quibbling over £13 for a journey that's around the £100 mark is hardly something to base a reasonable open access operator on. If you want an improvement in reliability, well, avoid Grand Central.

This leaves Hull Trains as the only possible option, or a new OAO that, as has been discussed previously on the thread, wouldn't get off the ground. Now, in terms of potential markets that aren't or might be (could you clarify what you've meant by potential markets please, as it's definitely confused me?!) Hull could potentially be viable, but it wouldn't be. Newark North Gate is, as I've said, essentially a parkway for much of the surrounding area, and a large chunk of its custom is Lincoln. From Lincoln, it's already possible to, which much less fuss than stopping an HT train additionally at Newark, drive or take the train to Retford and pick it up there. So an HT stopping at Newark North Gate would only really tap into almost exactly the same market as it does at Retford.

Again, I don't know whether your Lincoln correspondents have a different definition of reliability to mine, but the perception I gain from them is that the existing LNER service is frequent, reliable, and trustworthy, with all the possible places they would like to go to northbound and southbound covered easily, even though some require a change. This is not a position that any of the other stations along this section were in before OAO came along, except for Peterborough, which, if I recall correctly, is only being allowed because the GC services in question are looped there anyway. They pass North Gate at 125mph.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The people from Lincoln I talked to said that the LNER service from Lincoln was unreliable so they would like to have an OAO from Newark Northgate into London as they can get EMR to Newark, and they said that LNER ticket prices were expensive. Also, I did say that HT is probably the least likely OAO to stop at Newark.

 

[Purple Train]

The people from Lincoln I talked to said that the LNER service from Lincoln was unreliable so they would like to have an OAO from Newark Northgate into London as they can get EMR to Newark

So, because the Lincoln services are unreliable, they'd rather an all-new service operated from Newark to Kings Cross; have I got that right? If so, that's exceptionally weird logic. You can get EMR to Newark and connect for plentiful LNER services already. No need for an OAO. Unless all the LNER services from Newark are unreliable (which is at odds with the information I can glean), then it wouldn't solve that problem.

and they said that LNER ticket prices were expensive.

They're steep compared to the other prices you've quoted, but there's not a gigantic disparity. Certainly not enough to base an entire OAO on.

Also, I did say that HT is probably the least likely OAO to stop at Newark.

Which is therefore at odds with the idea of prizing comfort and reliability in the hypothetical new OAO service. As I said: Lumo would be a pointless stop as several of the LNER Edinburgh services already stop at North Gate, so there wouldn't be any "potential market". Grand Central would fail the reliability test quite dramatically. Hull Trains would pass all three of your tests but the stop at Retford taps into the same market as a stop at North Gate would.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

the OP uses the term "potential markets" to mean 1 or more customers. It is a very wide definition of that phrase!

Ah fantastic: what about tapping into the potential market from Lincoln to Slough then?

 

[geordieblue]

To have competition to LNER, so that LNER has more competition on pricing, comfort and reliability.

So the entire operations of Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo have not inspired any improvements to comfort levels on LNER - but a couple of OA calls a day at Newark will suddenly spur a change of heart from LNER management?

 

[skyhigh]

So the entire operations of Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo have not inspired any improvements to comfort levels on LNER - but a couple of OA calls a day at Newark will suddenly spur a change of heart from LNER management?

I think we've got to the point where the object of the thread is finding any possible justification for an Open Access to stop at the station because the OP wants one to.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I think we've got to the point where the object of the thread is finding any possible justification for an Open Access to stop at the station because the OP wants one to.

I'm not actually bothered whether or not one does. It's clear from the thread that it's not viable which was the point of this thread.

 

[liamf656]

I'm not actually bothered whether or not one does. It's clear from the thread that it's not viable which was the point of this thread.

I don't think we really have a point to this thread. It's too difficult to follow

 

[mike57]

Open access operators will only attempt to get a call at Newark added if they think its worth their while, i.e. will add to profits. Its well outside the Lumo market, who are aiming at the low cost London - Edinburgh market. Of the remainder of OA operators, Hull Trains already call at Retford and Grantham, so would probably not want to add a stop between them. Grand Central are already considering adding a stop at Peterborough which is a more important junction and connection station, so why would they want to add a call at Newark. There are already ~30 southbound and a similar number of northbound services each day, obviously all LNER.

Open Access operators will not attempt to add stops to a service unless it is in their business interests to do so, and unlike LNER there is no service commitment, they will run trains that will a) Make money, and b) that the regulator will allow. If I were an OAO I wouldn't be looking at Newark as a potential growth possibility, now if an OA operator could get the paths to run a proper King Cross - Leeds fast service... That would link London with the 4th largest city.

 

[takno]

I am confident that people would use a service if the price and timings allowed. Because Lumo seems to be the best option for a more frequent service to London that could have demand for Newark passengers to Edinburgh instead of GC and HT, with HT being the least likely

As somebody who uses Lumo for more than 4 hours at a time I'm extremely interested in it not stopping at every two-bit shack on the way just so that short distance travellers can have a choice of what colour the train is painted.

At this rate somebody will be proposing East Linton stops...

 

[YorkRailFan]

As somebody who uses Lumo for more than 4 hours at a time I'm extremely interested in it not stopping at every two-bit shack on the way just so that short distance travellers can have a choice of what colour the train is painted.

At this rate somebody will be proposing East Linton stops...

Bit rude to call Newark a two-bit shack.

 

[liamf656]

Bit rude to call Newark a two-bit shack.

But it's true. It wouldn't be in LUMOs best interests to call at places like Newark for no reason

 

[YorkRailFan]

But it's true. It wouldn't be in LUMOs best interests to call at places like Newark for no reason

So why does Hull Trains (a fellow First Group TOC) serve Howden?

 

[geordieblue]

So why does Hull Trains (a fellow First Group TOC) serve Howden?

Because they are providing Howden with a London service - obviously…

 

[liamf656]

So why does Hull Trains (a fellow First Group TOC) serve Howden?

To connect it with Doncaster and London. Newark already has trains to both of those destinations

 

[YorkRailFan]

To connect it with Doncaster and London. Newark already has trains to both of those destinations

There's demand for Howden to have a London service?

 

[Neptune]

Ok I think it’s time for the OP to actually put their cards on the table as to the real reason why they want an OAO to call at Newark as the reasons given have more twists and turns than Chubby Checker’s greatest hits and none of the questions we’ve all asked seem to have been answered clearly (it’s been like listening to an MP answering a testing question on Laura on a Sunday morning).

It seems to be no coincidence that this thread was started so quickly after confirmation that GC have been granted PBO calls for services which are timed to wait there therefore giving no time penalties to any service. I’m still to be convinced that this is nothing more than filling in the OAO dot on ECML stations.

I await the real reason with bated breath but certainly shan’t be holding it!

 

[YorkRailFan]

Because they are providing Howden with a London service - obviously…

Does Howden really need a London service?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

It seems to be no coincidence that this thread was started so quickly after confirmation that GC have been granted PBO calls for services which are timed to wait there therefore giving no time penalties to any service. I’m still to be convinced that this is nothing more than filling in the OAO dot on ECML stations.

I await the real reason with bated breath but certainly shan’t be holding it!

Just an idea, nothing else. This thread has made it clear that it's not viable, end of.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But LNER doesn't serve Bradford frequently meaning that GC could unlock a new market. As well as Halifax, Doncaster and Wakefield either a new or more frequent service to Newark with onward connections to Lincoln and even Nottingham.

GC already have that market. What figures have you seen to lead you to believe demand for Newark Bradford journeys warrants slowing the already very slow* service (*a whole extra hour on Wakefield London on LNER)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

Ok I think it’s time for the OP to actually put their cards on the table as to the real reason why they want an OAO to call at Newark as the reasons given have more twists and turns than Chubby Checker’s greatest hits and none of the questions we’ve all asked seem to have been answered clearly (it’s been like listening to an MP answering a testing question on Laura on a Sunday morning).

It seems to be no coincidence that this thread was started so quickly after confirmation that GC have been granted PBO calls for services which are timed to wait there therefore giving no time penalties to any service. I’m still to be convinced that this is nothing more than filling in the OAO dot on ECML stations.

I await the real reason with bated breath but certainly shan’t be holding it!

I do believe the OP thinks that every IC station on the major routes of the UK is deserving of a choice of operator, when really this is not usually an option at all (largely due to abstraction) and the ECML has been unusually lucky.

 

[mike57]

So why does Hull Trains (a fellow First Group TOC) serve Howden?

Hull trains provide direct London services from quite a few East Yorkshire stations which have no other or few direct London services. I suspect the free (it was last time I looked) parking at Howden is a draw for people from out of the immediate area, and the fact that you dont have town centre traffic to contend with when travelling to and from Howden. I assume their bean counters have done the sums and it makes sense for them to call there. If anything I could see them dropping the Grantham stop on the most popular services as they would rather have East Yorkshire - London passengers than Grantham - London ones, and I dont see a lot of people getting off at Grantham southbound or joining northbound.

The fact that Hull trains have been using a double 5 car set on some popular services shows demand is there. When we last travelled train was full, both bits.