ORR allows GC to serve Peterborough

[YorkRailFan]

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has today (24 November) given the go-ahead for Grand Central, an open access operator, to serve Peterborough railway station, offering more journey opportunities and choice to passengers.
The approval will enable two existing daily Grand Central services in each direction to call at Peterborough between Monday and Saturday.
ORR supports new open access where it delivers competition for the benefit of passengers and can fit alongside existing services without unduly impacting performance on the network. In making this decision, we have weighed this up against the impact on Government funds and effect on other users of the railway.
Stephanie Tobyn, Director, Strategy, Policy & Reform, said:
Open access services promote competition on the rail network and give passengers more choice about how they travel. With passenger numbers still not quite recovered following the pandemic, it’s important that the network provides options for all as the industry looks to increase passenger journeys.
ORR plays a crucial role in overseeing competition on our railway, and we’ll continue to assess open access applications with the goal of providing greater consumer choice, value and performance.

ORR gives approval for new services at Peterborough | Office of Rail and Road

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has today (24 November) given the go-ahead for Grand Central, an open access operator, to serve Peterborough railway station, offering more journey opportunities and choice to passengers.

www.orr.gov.uk

For GC's response, see Post #69 (I'm serious)

This is great news for Peterborough as it means that passengers from Peterborough have 2 express options into London (as Thameslink/Great Northern aren't express) and also opens more destinations up North.

 

[JonathanH]

This is great news for Peterborough as it means that passengers from Peterborough have 2 express options into London (as Thameslink/Great Northern aren't express) and also opens more destinations up North.

Is it an open call at Peterborough or pick up northbound / set down southbound.

GC would hardly want passengers filling up their trains between Peterborough and London if they can fill them with passengers travelling to London from further north.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

ORR gives approval for new services at Peterborough | Office of Rail and Road

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has today (24 November) given the go-ahead for Grand Central, an open access operator, to serve Peterborough railway station, offering more journey opportunities and choice to passengers.

www.orr.gov.uk

GC is yet to comment on the topic, will update if/when they do.

This is great news for Peterborough as it means that passengers from Peterborough have 2 express options into London (as Thameslink/Great Northern aren't express) and also opens more destinations up North.

This pleases me for selfish reasons, as getting on my last few 180s will now be a far easier task

 

[YorkRailFan]

This pleases me for selfish reasons, as getting on my last few 180s will now be a far easier task

I personally avoid 180s at all costs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2023 ==

Is it an open call at Peterborough or pick up northbound / set down southbound.

GC would hardly want passengers filling up their trains between Peterborough and London if they can fill them with passengers travelling to London from further north.

Ah OK, so like Lumo serving Stevenage.

 

[JonathanH]

I personally avoid 180s at all costs.

I suspect that 'TT-ONR-NRN' only tries to go on each one once.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is it an open call at Peterborough or pick up northbound / set down southbound.

GC would hardly want passengers filling up their trains between Peterborough and London if they can fill them with passengers travelling to London from further north.

Peterborough to Doncaster/Pontefract isn't much longer than Peterborough to London is. In fact, the former is about the same time. And Peterborough Wakefield customers are more likely to book LNER anyway, so I don't see much point in implementing that. It's considerably further from London than Stevenage is, on a service that doesn't go as anywhere nearly far as Lumo.

 

[zwk500]

Is it an open call at Peterborough or pick up northbound / set down southbound.

GC would hardly want passengers filling up their trains between Peterborough and London if they can fill them with passengers travelling to London from further north.

It's entirely possible that GC want to fill up seats that would otherwise be empty with P'bro-London tickets (and the associated ORCATS).

 

[JonathanH]

It's entirely possible that GC want to fill up seats that would otherwise be empty with P'bro-London tickets (and the associated ORCATS).

The ORR decision letter doesn't see many passengers switching, as it puts the abstraction at between £840,000 and £890,000 over the course of a year.

The premise is that the trains have pathing time which means they often have to draw to a halt at Peterborough in any case. One a day in each direction on each route - no timings given as to which ones.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Peterborough to Doncaster/Pontefract isn't much longer than Peterborough to London is. In fact, the former is about the same time. And Peterborough Wakefield customers are more likely to book LNER anyway, so I don't see much point in implementing that. It's considerably further from London than Stevenage is, on a service that doesn't go as anywhere nearly far as Lumo.

You didn't factor in Peterborough-Sunderland, Peterborough-Halifax, Peterborough-Hartlepool or Peterborough-Bradford.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You didn't factor in Peterborough-Sunderland, Peterborough-Halifax, Peterborough-Hartlepool or Peterborough-Bradford.

I don't need to... I'm stating that several of Grand Central's other would-be routes from Peterborough would be of a similar journey time to London, so it wouldn't necessarily make full sense to prohibit London journeys...

 

[YorkRailFan]

I don't need to... I'm stating that several of Grand Central's other would-be routes from Peterborough would be of a similar journey time to London, so it wouldn't necessarily make full sense to prohibit London journeys...

Distance and journey times are not the factor here, it's passenger demand.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It's considerably further from London than Stevenage is, on a service that doesn't go as anywhere nearly far as Lumo.

Peterborough is also a connection point for passengers to/from the eastern counties, and may also attract custom from Leicester (although they have an alternative connection to the north via Sheffield)

 

[YorkRailFan]

Peterborough is also a connection point for passengers to/from the eastern counties, and may also attract custom from Leicester (although they have an alternative connection to the north via Sheffield)

Stansted Airport is a likely destination for passengers from GC's network.

 

[zwk500]

Peterborough is also a connection point for passengers to/from the eastern counties, and may also attract custom from Leicester (although they have an alternative connection to the north via Sheffield)

I'd expect the connection to Cambridge to be far more interesting to GC, although not sure if it's much quicker than bouncing back from King's Cross.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I'd expect the connection to Cambridge to be far more interesting to GC, although not sure if it's much quicker than bouncing back from King's Cross.

If you factor in the time from KGX to Peterborough, then yes, it is quicker to go to Peterborough direct.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Distance and journey times are not the factor here, it's passenger demand.

And you don't think London to Peterborough would be of high demand? You yourself declared it a benefit if Peterborough had 2 express options into London.

 

[YorkRailFan]

And you don't think London to Peterborough would be of high demand? You yourself declared it a benefit if Peterborough had 2 express options into London.

I'm not against GC serving Peterborough-London at all, my point is when you talked about Wakefield, you forget destinations I mentioned up thread that could have huge potential for GC with a direct service to Peterborough.

 

[Merseysider]

Regardless of what the ORR say, they can't call at Peterborough if they don't actually run their trains @yorkie I am sure would advise against planning on using them... as it could be quite a long wait for the next service!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Regardless of what the ORR say, they can't call at Peterborough if they don't actually run their trains @yorkie I am sure would advise against planning on using them... as it could be quite a long wait for the next service!

They also threw in the towel at just about every slight surge in COVID cases during the pandemic, not to mention deciding they couldn't be bothered with Blackpool merely months from the planned start date.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2023 ==

We consider that the absolute level of abstraction, of between £0.835 and £0.897m per annum, is a small amount compared to the value of abstraction we have accepted for previous applications and to LNER’s total overall fare income of £470 million in 2021/22. The material difference in revenue generation between the worst and best case generation:abstraction scenarios equates to a forecast of £65,000 annually (i.e. 6 passengers per day paying the average off-peak fare across all Grand Central calls to and from London). In addition, we note that due to the nature of the public service contract LNER holds, this abstraction will be passed through to the Department for Transport, which did not object to this application. We viewed these as relevant considerations, as the NPA test is designed to inform our duty to consider the funds available to the Secretary of State.

This quote from the supplied letter suggests London - Peterborough journeys were considered as a major inclusion in this case for additional calls, therefore I would be very surprised if they then installed a pick up/drop off only reguime.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2023 ==

EDIT: Update

Realtime Trains | Departures from Peterborough all day on 14/12/2023

Train information at Peterborough all day on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This search on RTT for calling services at PBO come the December timetable change suggests:

1N90 0827 London Kings Cross to Sunderland
1D71 1057 London Kings Cross to Bradford Interchange
1A64 1017 Sunderland to London Kings Cross
1A67 1450 Bradford Interchange to London Kings Cross

Will be the services stopping at Peterborough. The stops are currently unadvertised but seeing as the ORR letter specifically mentions trains that already have to stop there but can't open the doors indicates it would be those four services that'd then become advertised at PBO.

 

[YorkRailFan]

This quote from the supplied letter suggests London - Peterborough journeys were considered as a major inclusion in this case for additional calls, therefore I would be very surprised if they then installed a pick up/drop off only reguime.

Have you got a link for that?

Regardless of what the ORR say, they can't call at Peterborough if they don't actually run their trains @yorkie I am sure would advise against planning on using them... as it could be quite a long wait for the next service!

Bring a blanket and a pillow for the waiting room!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Have you got a link for that?

You yourself supplied it in your opening post...

 

[YorkRailFan]

EDIT: Update

Realtime Trains | Departures from Peterborough all day on 14/12/2023

Train information at Peterborough all day on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This search on RTT for calling services at PBO come the December timetable change suggests:

1N90 0827 London Kings Cross to Sunderland
1D71 1057 London Kings Cross to Bradford Interchange
1A64 1017 Sunderland to London Kings Cross
1A67 1450 Bradford Interchange to London Kings Cross

Will be the services stopping at Peterborough. The stops are currently unadvertised but seeing as the ORR letter specifically mentions trains that already have to stop there but can't open the doors indicates it would be those four services that'd then become advertised at PBO.

All of those services say on RTT "Service stop unadvertised", as some GC services so stop at Peterborough for pathing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2023 ==

You yourself supplied it in your opening post...

Not the part when you mention LNER, there is no mention of LNER in my first post.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

All of those services say on RTT "Service stop unadvertised", as some GC services so stop at Peterborough for pathing.

Will be the services stopping at Peterborough. The stops are currently unadvertised but seeing as the ORR letter specifically mentions trains that already have to stop there but can't open the doors indicates it would be those four services that'd then become advertised at PBO.

If you read all of the post you’ll see I fully acknowledged that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2023 ==

Not the part when you mention LNER, there is no mention of LNER in my first post.

The link you supplied leads to the ORR website, where the decision letter from which I quoted is at the bottom.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-11/grand-central-s22-18th-sa-decision-letter.pdf

 

[YorkRailFan]

If you read all of the post you’ll see I fully acknowledged that

We have no timeline as to when services would begin, for all we know it could be from the May 2024 timetable change.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

We have no timeline as to when services would begin, for all we know it could be from the May 2024 timetable change.

Then it would only be there for a month before the Subsidary Change Date, again, it says this on the website

Network Rail then decided to support the proposal as a Section 22 application. In line with Network Rail’s East Coast Main Line access rights policy, it is currently only willing to support the inclusion of the additional services until the Subsidiary Change Date in June 2024.

Please read it thoroughly before trying to create a back-and-forth with every point made, otherwise we’ll end up disrupting the thread in a most tiresome way!

 

[zwk500]

All of those services say on RTT "Service stop unadvertised", as some GC services so stop at Peterborough for pathing.

'Service stop unadvertised' (data code 'N') is different from 'Service stops for pathing reasons' (data code 'A').

 

[Banham7]

It will be interesting to see if some other stations follow suit, Grand Central have already previously regularly stopped trains at Newark Northgate earlier this year without releasing the doors, so hopefully there will be some more choice of operator there as well in the future.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Then it would only be there for a month before the Subsidary Change Date, again, it says this on the website



Please read it thoroughly before trying to create a back-and-forth with every point made, otherwise we’ll end up disrupting the thread in a most tiresome way!

Once again, I did not link to this in my original post, please provide a link.

 

[skyhigh]

Once again, I did not link to this in my original post, please provide a link.

It is linked on the page you provided a link to in the opening post. Did you actually read it yourself?

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https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-11/grand-central-s22-18th-sa-decision-letter.pdf

 

[YorkRailFan]

'Service stop unadvertised' (data code 'N') is different from 'Service stops for pathing reasons' (data code 'A').

Says for 1A64 "service stops for pathing (passing train), stop unadvertised."

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2023 ==

It is linked on the page you provided a link to in the opening post. Did you actually read it yourself?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2023 ==

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-11/grand-central-s22-18th-sa-decision-letter.pdf

Ah OK, I was talking about the press release.