Consequences of what can happen if you do not engage in process

[DaleCooper]

While you might lose 15 minutes depending on timings, I absolutely would change at Moorfields if not in a hurry, for a greater chance of a seat.

If the booking office was closed how long would you wait? 10 minutes? An hour? If it's closed, it's closed and you are entitled to pay later (unless there's a TVM, but Merseyrail has hardly any).

He didn't say the office was closed just there was no one at the window.

but there was nobody in the paying window.

 

[M28361M]

Lots of inconsistencies in this chap's account. For example:-

Terry was charged with failing to produce a ticket and was sent a letter from the HM Courts and Tribunals Service inviting him to plead guilty or not guilty. This too went unanswered

and then later...

I just feel it is wrong and that's why I'm willing to fight it in court myself.

Surely if he is willing to fight it in court, he should have responded to the letter from the Court?

He didn't say the office was closed just there was no one at the window.

This is the big question. In my experience of Merseyrail stations it is unusual for the ticket office window to be 'open' when no-one is on duty. If closed due to staff shortage, the blinds or shutters would be down. If the staff member were temporarily away (for example, assisting a passenger, or taking a personal needs break) there would be a sign in the window.

I do wonder if he has realised too late in the process that he should have engaged earlier, and has now gone to the Echo in the hope that a media story will get Merseyrail to drop it (if this is even a possibility now that it is has escalated to bailiffs being involved?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

He didn't say the office was closed just there was no one at the window.

Yep. So how long do you wait?

If nobody is there it's closed. The usual Merseyrail practice in this sort of case is to put a handwritten sign up saying something like "gone to the loo, pay at the other end". These days it would be very prudent to photograph any such sign, though my experience has been that if you go to the gateline and say the booking office was closed they tend to believe you as long as you do then go and pay.

I've never known them check tickets on interchange, though, unless this is a new practice.

 

[DaleCooper]

Yep. So how long do you wait?

If nobody is there it's closed. The usual Merseyrail practice in this sort of case is to put a handwritten sign up saying something like "gone to the loo, pay at the other end". These days it would be very prudent to photograph any such sign, though my experience has been that if you go to the gateline and say the booking office was closed they tend to believe you as long as you do then go and pay.

I've never known them check tickets on interchange, though, unless this is a new practice.

It sounds like he didn't wait at all.

We were running late; we heard the train coming so we ran to the platform

 

[Bletchleyite]

Considering how busy the RPIs were on Saturday at the exit of the lift at Lime Street there is a large attitude of paying only when challenged on Merseyrail.

The continued existence of the "fare dodger's lift" at Lime St (which anyone wanting to get out of the system without paying in the city centre knows about* **) astonishes me. It would almost certainly justify its own remote-monitored gateline - some would jump it, sure, but it would get the casuals.

* Though there are other stations where there are ways round the gateline, I'll not name them in case misused, but in one case I was so surprised I actually attempted to enter the gateline before realising I was already outside it.

** I always use it to avoid a long walk round, but have seen visible disappointment on the face of an RPI there when producing a valid ticket.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2023 ==

It sounds like he didn't wait at all.

I wouldn't either if my train was due shortly. I'd probably snap a quick photo of it being empty to show to an RPI, with the clock visible if possible (there's usually one inside). If it's closed, it's closed. How long it's closed for is of no relevance.

You have no idea how long you'd have to wait.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I have had the experience of finding the ticket office closed at Birkdale, with a sign "pay at other end", then paying at Formby. At Formby I explained, and there was a remark along the lines of "what time was it?, oh 10 o'clock. OK they'll have been changing shift". I didn't take a photo, but I will if it happens again! But in this case the passenger(s) were intercepted by a revenue block changing at Moorfields (unusual if in a hurry "we were running late" to go over to the Wirral), and it went downhill from there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have had the experience of finding the ticket office closed at Birkdale, with a sign "pay at other end", then paying at Formby. At Formby I explained, and there was a remark along the lines of "what time was it?, oh 10 o'clock. OK they'll have been changing shift". I didn't take a photo, but I will if it happens again! But in this case the passenger(s) were intercepted by a revenue block changing at Moorfields (unusual if in a hurry "we were running late" to go over to the Wirral), and it went downhill from there.

As noted I think there's a very high chance he wasn't exactly polite to that inspector, who as a result decided to make his life hard, even if he expected the PF to be successfully appealed it'd at least create him some hassle.

I have a suspicion that also applies to an extent to stuff like feet on seats, as I've now more than once seen the "rentathugs" walk past people with shoes on seats and ignore them completely.

 

[spag23]

OK they'll have been changing shift

In most sectors, a change of shift involves a handover overlap; so a temporary double manning, not a facility closure.

 

[fandroid]

If a press story seems inconsistent/incomplete, it's always prudent to suspect the writer/publisher first. The press are expert at mangling the facts

 

[gg1]

As noted I think there's a very high chance he wasn't exactly polite to that inspector, who as a result decided to make his life hard, even if he expected the PF to be successfully appealed it'd at least create him some hassle.

His previous appearance in another Liverpool Echo story from 2016 would certainly add weight to that assertion: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/builder-slashed-workmate-neck-metal-12215569

A builder who slashed his workmate in the neck with a metal shard in a cocaine and alcohol-fuelled attack has been jailed.
Terence Harrison and Jeffrey Holloway had been drinking and snorting the drug together at the Jubilee Inn in Litherland .
But following a row, Harrison left the pub in Hatton Hill Road and grabbed the makeshift weapon from a nearby skip.
He was captured on CCTV cameras sneaking back to the venue and creeping up on his victim, who was stood by the entrance.
Harrison, 38, suddenly appeared with a t-shirt covering his face, ran at his pal and slashed him “without any warning”.
He was jailed for six years at Liverpool Crown Court .

.

 

[pethadine82]

This really depends on what his aspirations are. In the end it will be down to a judge to decide, they won't leave him homeless, or destitute. The judge may ask him to pay something silly like £5 a month, and after 6 years the debt will be written off. If he has no intention of getting credit then very little will happen to him.

 

[Barnsley]

In most sectors, a change of shift involves a handover overlap; so a temporary double manning, not a facility closure.

If there is only one booking office window, you have to pull the blind down, one person has to log off and cash up before the next person can log on for their shift and open, which takes around 10-15 mins

 

[Merle Haggard]

* Though there are other stations where there are ways round the gateline, I'll not name them in case misused, but in one case I was so surprised I actually attempted to enter the gateline before realising I was already outside it.

I've encountered similar, probably the same.
Alighting from a train I wandered around unsuccessfully looking for the toilets. I then asked a member of staff and he pointed to them - just beyond some auto gates. I reasonably but wrongly assumed that they were exit gates and then got very confused for a moment, finding my way back to the platforms from the toilet without going through entry gates.

 

[Egg Centric]

His previous appearance in another Liverpool Echo story from 2016 would certainly add weight to that assertion: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/builder-slashed-workmate-neck-metal-12215569

I wonder which of the establishments near Hamilton Square his son had an "appointment" with

 

[John R]

His previous appearance in another Liverpool Echo story from 2016 would certainly add weight to that assertion: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/builder-slashed-workmate-neck-metal-12215569


.

Good spot, and that article, which notes his 6 year sentence, also makes reference to a previous conviction:-

Harrison was locked up for seven years in 1999 after causing grievous bodily harm with intent.

 

[AndroidBango]

What's the bet this story will be quietly removed from the Echo's website in the next few days?

 

[Deafdoggie]

If there is only one booking office window, you have to pull the blind down, one person has to log off and cash up before the next person can log on for their shift and open, which takes around 10-15 mins

That seems an unnecessarily antiquated system. Supermarket checkouts get through several different cashiers in a day and aren't cashed up in-between. Indeed, most now only get cashed up once a week, and yet they still balance-or if they don't, they know why and whom to blame!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That seems an unnecessarily antiquated system. Supermarket checkouts get through several different cashiers in a day and aren't cashed up in-between. Indeed, most now only get cashed up once a week, and yet they still balance-or if they don't, they know why and whom to blame!

If you wanted to make it quicker but keep that approach the way to do it would be as bus drivers do - each person has their own cash till and at changeover presses a button, unlocking it and printing off a receipt stating what should be in it, so they can then move away from the window and cash it up. The new person then puts theirs in, locks it and logs in and can serve immediately.

Speeding up cashing up at booking offices

That seems an unnecessarily antiquated system. Supermarket checkouts get through several different cashiers in a day and aren't cashed up in-between. Indeed, most now only get cashed up once a week, and yet they still balance-or if they don't, they know why and whom to blame! If you wanted to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Krokodil]

you have to ask where the money is going to.

To the court, mate. The railway only gets the value of the fare plus costs.

How are they coming to the conclusions of these fines?

Perhaps if he engaged with the process he'd find out.

 

[Haywain]

To the court, mate. The railway only gets the value of the fare plus costs.


Perhaps if he engaged with the process he'd find out.

You might think he'd have some understanding of the court system...

 

[Falcon1200]

I wouldn't either if my train was due shortly.

[Wait for the booking office staff to return]

Understandable if there would be a long wait until the next train, but there are lots from Sandhills to Moorfields/Central, and quite a few out to Birkenhead also!

 

[John R]

You might think he'd have some understanding of the court system...

 

[Merle Haggard]

That was very, very many years ago.
Lawyers will use fine as the legal meaning in legal documents. In the same way mortgage is used in its strict legal sense in legal documents. But that doesn't mean in normal everyday usage that's how people use the words.
Language evolves. Anyone not using fine as its normal meaning (rather than its strict legal meaning) should probably still use gay to mean happy and refuse to acknowledge language moves on.

I think there's a difference between the evolution of language and sloppy or loose usage.

Although English usage evolves I am not sure that the law changes in concert; for example, the Regulation of the Railways Act, often used to prosecute fare evaders such as the one in question, dates from 1889.

An example of how the law may, frustratingly perhaps, place great emphasis on a loose word or deed was brought home to me (admittedly, even further back in my distant past) when a passenger was seriously injured after alighting from a moving train. Station staff visited her in hospital and took flowers; the latter gift was subsequently taken as an admission of liability on the part of B.R. in subsequent court action.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think there's a difference between the evolution of language and sloppy or loose usage.

Although English usage evolves I am not sure that the law changes in concert; for example, the Regulation of the Railways Act, often used to prosecute fare evaders such as the one in question, dates from 1889.

An example of how the law may, frustratingly perhaps, place great emphasis on a loose word or deed was brought home to me (admittedly, even further back in my distant past) when a passenger was seriously injured after alighting from a moving train. Station staff visited her in hospital and took flowers; the latter gift was subsequently taken as an admission of liability on the part of B.R. in subsequent court action.

I have heard this story trotted out (in various forms), but never knew if it were actually true. But certainly I've known many companies send flowers and chocolates as a simple kind gesture and there's been no legal come back on them for simply being nice.
But certainly they'll be no legal come back for using the word fine its dictionary definition

 

[PacerTrain142]

Here you are, to avoid anybody else having to click on that advert infested website.

He said: "We said we'd run up to the desk and pay now but (the guard) said no, no. So I gave him my name and he came back with my address and my date of birth and started reading me my rights. To be honest I got a bit on my high horse. I asked him where he got my information and he just kept telling me I had the right to remain silent. I took the slip and that was that. But it was just eating away at me. I was waiting to see what was going to come of it."

To new honest, if it had been me, I would have just told them a false name and address. I’m Mark Smith from 14, Station Road, Liverpool for example. But very strange how they managed to get his address and dob just from his name.

 

[Haywain]

But very strange how they managed to get his address and dob just from his name.

A regular 'customer'?

 

[Egg Centric]

A regular 'customer'?

To expand on my previous comment, Hamilton Square station is very close to:

• Police Station
• Magistrates' Court
• Probation
• Various Solicitors
• Therapy for ruffians
• Housing association HQ
• Child Support Agency
• Just for a laugh - BTP

I would imagine that him and his son are indeed regular customers to at least one of these...

 

[PacerTrain142]

Yep. So how long do you wait?

If nobody is there it's closed. The usual Merseyrail practice in this sort of case is to put a handwritten sign up saying something like "gone to the loo, pay at the other end". These days it would be very prudent to photograph any such sign, though my experience has been that if you go to the gateline and say the booking office was closed they tend to believe you as long as you do then go and pay.

I've never known them check tickets on interchange, though, unless this is a new practice.

Tbh, I’m surprised they haven’t closed the ticket offices down and switched to ticket machines. My local line is operated by northern and a lot of the ticket offices near me have or are in the process of closing down or drastically reducing their opening hours. Sometimes the ticket machines are out of order but at least with northern theres always a guard so you can just pay on the train.

 

[Krokodil]

To new honest, if it had been me, I would have just told them a false name and address.

So when they do an electoral roll (etc.) check on the phone in front of you and it comes back negative you're now also being charged with giving a false name.

But very strange how they managed to get his address and dob just from his name.

Perhaps this wasn't the first time he'd been caught.

 

[Egg Centric]

So when they do an electoral roll (etc.) check on the phone in front of you and it comes back negative you're now also being charged with giving a false name.

Indeed. If you're going to act illegally (which you shouldn't) then you should just run quite honestly. Either there'll be police around to stop you in which case they would also have got you when you gave the false name, or you'll get away.

One imagines though that this character was certainly not averse to attempting to make an escape so I imagine it wasn't possible at the time.