Consequences of what can happen if you do not engage in process

[gray1404]

Man won't pay £703 Merseyrail fine 'even if it puts him in jail'

Terry Harrison has been landed with a huge fine after failing to pay for his train ticket

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

This was a really sad case to read about. If the guy's story is true and there was no one in the booking office at Sandhills he could have appealed and Merseyrail would have been statued barred from doing anything further. However he has refused to engage in the process or even respond to court papers. I have a feeling if both he and his son had been willing to go to court the case might have been dropped.

 

[ollyrogers]

Is there a link to this story not on the godawful Reach website?

 

[skyhigh]

If the guy's story is true

I think the key quote is:

So we just walked down to Sandhills. We went to pay as you do, but there was nobody in the paying window. We were running late; we heard the train coming so we ran to the platform - we just expected to pay at the other side.

 

[6Gman]

Unhelpful that the Merseyrail spokesperson refers to the initial £50/100 charge as a fine.

 

[Kite159]

Is there a link to this story not on the godawful Reach website?

Here you are, to avoid anybody else having to click on that advert infested website.

A man was hit with a whopping £703 fine after failing to pay for a £2.60 train ticket to Wirral.

Terry Harrison, 45, wanted to avoid a large taxi fare by taking a Merseyrail train from Sandhills to Hamilton Square, Birkenhead, in August. But when he and his son got off at Moorfields to change trains, they were stopped by security guards and given an immediate £100 penalty notice for travelling without a ticket...

...After failing to pay the £100 fine, Terry was charged with failing to produce a ticket and was sent a letter from the HM Courts and Tribunals Service inviting him to plead guilty or not guilty. This too went unanswered, and Terry was charged £703.40 by the courts on October 14...

 

[Deafdoggie]

Unhelpful that the Merseyrail spokesperson refers to the initial £50/100 charge as a fine.

Not really. They are simply using the dictionary definition of fine. Which is also what the general public understand by fine. It's only this forum that gets itself tied in knots over the meaning.
Mortgage has a very specific meaning in law, yet everyone refers to it as simply the loan to buy your house.
Fine is really the same, everyone uses its meaning not in the strict legal sense & no one gets confused

 

[Haywain]

It's a pity (for him) that he hasn't done anything to fight the charge so far, rather than just ignoring it. He's going to find out eventually that the courts want his money and will get it, one way or another.

 

[Statto]

Is there a link to this story not on the godawful Reach website?

Turn javascript off & use adblockers if you can, it's a must for Reach PLC sites.

 

[AdamWW]

Not really. They are simply using the dictionary definition of fine. Which is also what the general public understand by fine. It's only this forum that gets itself tied in knots over the meaning.
Mortgage has a very specific meaning in law, yet everyone refers to it as simply the loan to buy your house.
Fine is really the same, everyone uses its meaning not in the strict legal sense & no one gets confused

Quite.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a pity (for him) that he hasn't done anything to fight the charge so far, rather than just ignoring it. He's going to find out eventually that the courts want his money and will get it, one way or another.

Whereas if he had appealed the PF it probably would have been cancelled, though that depends on whether he had time to buy a ticket during his connection.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Is there a link to this story not on the godawful Reach website?

I just created this snapshot, which may be less bloated than the original.

 

[dakta]

There's two ways to read this, minor fare becomes a big issue because 'we couldnt pay at the window'

or, man creates his own hell through own arrogance

Reading through it I'm going with the latter, even if he had a point there's a lot he could've done to make an a bad outcome better.

 

[KirkstallOne]

It would have been an interesting case if he had fought it as it could be argued that Merseyrail should have pursued the unpaid penalty fare as a civil debt. However not engaging at all, even at the point he has a court issued fine, is not going to end well.

 

[skyhigh]

It would have been an interesting case if he had fought it as it could be argued that Merseyrail should have pursued the unpaid penalty fare as a civil debt.

Wouldn't this have only applied if the Penalty Fare was appealed correctly? It sounds as if he simply ignored it.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not really. They are simply using the dictionary definition of fine. Which is also what the general public understand by fine. It's only this forum that gets itself tied in knots over the meaning.
Mortgage has a very specific meaning in law, yet everyone refers to it as simply the loan to buy your house.
Fine is really the same, everyone uses its meaning not in the strict legal sense & no one gets confused

Penalty fares were introduced as part of the Open Stations project.

Believe me, a great deal of time and effort was spent by the B.R.B. and the lawyers to avoid a penalty fare ever being called, regarded or implied as a 'fine'.

For very good reasons.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Wouldn't this have only applied if the Penalty Fare was appealed correctly? It sounds as if he simply ignored it.

I think there is an argument to be made that the sections that bar prosecution after appeal are only making explicit what is implicit, that a penalty has been decided via a quasi-legal process and without evidence of more serious criminality Res Judicata should apply and the penalty pursued as a civil debt.

Might be a stronger argument if the passenger had sent in payment for the fare part of the penalty fare.

 

[Adam Williams]

Here you are, to avoid anybody else having to click on that advert infested website.

Perhaps the ad revenue from the Reach site will go towards the guy's court fine? Do local newspapers still pay for stories?

---

I don't know if it's a UK cultural thing, but it feels like we have an awful lot of people who stick their head in the sand when they end up in situations like this. It'll cost him even more if he continues to do so.

 

[Haywain]

Perhaps the ad revenue from the Reach site will go towards the guy's court fine?

Well, seeing as he’s said he won’t be paying the fine he won’t be needing it!

Do local newspapers still pay for stories?

Only an absolute minimum, or less if they can get away with it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't help that sometimes ignoring parking "fines" works (though less than it did).

 

[AndroidBango]

Big Freeman-on-the-Land energy from this fella.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Big Freeman-on-the-Land energy from this fella.

One suspects he may well have failed the attitude test with the initial inspector...

 

[AlterEgo]

Always happy to see these sorts of cases functioning as an idiot tax.

 

[Kite159]

One suspects there might be more to that story with him wanting to travel to Birkenhead Central (which lacks ticket barriers) rather than Hamilton Square and simply walked past the open ticket office at Sandhills and only got caught with a revenue block in the interchange passage at Moorfields. Considering how busy the RPIs were on Saturday at the exit of the lift at Lime Street there is a large attitude of paying only when challenged on Merseyrail.

 

[Master29]

It doesn't help that sometimes ignoring parking "fines" works (though less than it did).

Indeed but I think the railways have long had a little more judicial clout than private parking companies although it's a little different since Beavis vs Parking eye. They are still often reluctant to pursue parking charges however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One suspects there might be more to that story with him wanting to travel to Birkenhead Central (which lacks ticket barriers) rather than Hamilton Square and simply walked past the open ticket office at Sandhills and only got caught with a revenue block in the interchange passage at Moorfields. Considering how busy the RPIs were on Saturday at the exit of the lift at Lime Street there is a large attitude of paying only when challenged on Merseyrail.

There always was. "Paying at the other end" is a very well established phrase for not paying unless anyone bothers to ask for it. In the "olde days" the booking office staff often did, and as no tickets were issued and it was all cash they most likely pocketed it (hence the motivation to bother), but that's not been the case for a very long time, so revenue for journeys between ungated local stations is only very rarely collected.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Penalty fares were introduced as part of the Open Stations project.

Believe me, a great deal of time and effort was spent by the B.R.B. and the lawyers to avoid a penalty fare ever being called, regarded or implied as a 'fine'.

For very good reasons.

That was very, very many years ago.
Lawyers will use fine as the legal meaning in legal documents. In the same way mortgage is used in its strict legal sense in legal documents. But that doesn't mean in normal everyday usage that's how people use the words.
Language evolves. Anyone not using fine as its normal meaning (rather than its strict legal meaning) should probably still use gay to mean happy and refuse to acknowledge language moves on.

 

[JBuchananGB]

This fellow has dug himself into a big hole, but even so there are a few weird anomalies. A trip from Sandhills to Birkenhead would not usually involve changing at Moorfields. You change at Central. There are about 12tph from Sandhills to Central, no absolutely no need to rush to jump a train just arriving. Likewise about 8tph on the Wirral Line. What a tale of woe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This fellow has dug himself into a big hole, but even so there are a few weird anomalies. A trip from Sandhills to Birkenhead would not usually involve changing at Moorfields. You change at Central. There are about 12tph from Sandhills to Central, no absolutely no need to rush to jump a train just arriving. Likewise about 8tph on the Wirral Line. What a tale of woe.

While you might lose 15 minutes depending on timings, I absolutely would change at Moorfields if not in a hurry, for a greater chance of a seat.

If the booking office was closed how long would you wait? 10 minutes? An hour? If it's closed, it's closed and you are entitled to pay later (unless there's a TVM, but Merseyrail has hardly any).

 

[Deafdoggie]

While you might lose 15 minutes depending on timings, I absolutely would change at Moorfields if not in a hurry, for a greater chance of a seat.

If the booking office was closed how long would you wait? 10 minutes? An hour? If it's closed, it's closed and you are entitled to pay later (unless there's a TVM, but Merseyrail has hardly any).

Exactly. You can't be expected to wait till it opens.
Taking everything at face value, the only thing they did wrong was not engage in the process and hope it would go away.

 

[miklcct]

Exactly. You can't be expected to wait till it opens.
Taking everything at face value, the only thing they did wrong was not engage in the process and hope it would go away.

So who's the burden of proof on to show that there were no opportunities to buy before boarding?