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Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

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DynamicSpirit

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Because that's been such a success in places that it's been tried. Just look at how well the USA's "war on drugs" has turned out.

I really don't understand the frequently made argument that we should stop fighting against drugs because we haven't yet been able to stop people using drugs. I mean, despite decades (centuries for some crimes) in which things like dangerous driving, burglary, mugging people in the streets, or shoplifting have been illegal we still haven't been able to eliminate those those scourges on our society. Some things like shoplifting seem to be becoming completely rampant despite being illegal. Yet I bet no-one would argue that we should therefore give up and decriminalise those things/stop 'wasting' police time on them, in the way people seem to do for drugs (I realise you haven't actually said that in this post, but that's usually where disparaging comments about 'war on drugs' tend to lead)

I would suggest you'd do better by starting with de-criminalise possession of quantities for personal use and focus on drug treatment along with legalisation of a number of drugs to cut out the market from under the drug gangs.

...Who would presumably then simply then seek to supply and get more people addicted to more dangerous drugs instead. Or do you imagine that drugs gangs who find they can no longer make a fortune pushing softer drugs, would simply say, "OK guys, let's give up on our lucrative life of crime, become honest upright citizens and go get minimum wage jobs as shop assistants or something instead"? ;)
 
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Snow1964

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That is a large increase of the minimum wage (to £11.44), especially as it will now include 21 + 22-year-olds. Blimey
And sadly some organisations seem to treat it as a target that they don't want to exceed, rather than train and keep quality staff by paying them like they value them and want to keep them.

The next stage should be to have minimum employers pension contribution for everyone over 21 too.
 

nw1

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Someone has presumably gone "Oh ####, we've not done anything to really appeal to the young for 13 years, er quick lets lower the age at which the full minimum wage applies and hope that distracts them all from everything else we've done!"

One question. To my mind this sounds like bribery (as in, bribing people to vote Tory). Same for any other tax cuts. Should the government not refer themselves for prosecution under the Bribery Act? ;)

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That's what they did in a lot of countries across Europe, and lots of people in countries, whether communist or otherwise, seem to get along fine with it. There are alternatives - we could for example try to do something about the regional policy that is pushing everybody to live in the South-East while large chunks of Scotland and the North progressively empty themselves out, but I don't see that happening.
HS2! (Oops....) ;)
 

edwin_m

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I really don't understand the frequently made argument that we should stop fighting against drugs because we haven't yet been able to stop people using drugs. I mean, despite decades (centuries for some crimes) in which things like dangerous driving, burglary, mugging people in the streets, or shoplifting have been illegal we still haven't been able to eliminate those those scourges on our society. Some things like shoplifting seem to be becoming completely rampant despite being illegal. Yet I bet no-one would argue that we should therefore give up and decriminalise those things/stop 'wasting' police time on them, in the way people seem to do for drugs (I realise you haven't actually said that in this post, but that's usually where disparaging comments about 'war on drugs' tend to lead)



...Who would presumably then simply then seek to supply and get more people addicted to more dangerous drugs instead. Or do you imagine that drugs gangs who find they can no longer make a fortune pushing softer drugs, would simply say, "OK guys, let's give up on our lucrative life of crime, become honest upright citizens and go get minimum wage jobs as shop assistants or something instead"? ;)
I'd say it rests on the premise that individual use of drugs causes relatively little harm to others (obviously depending on the drug and the quantity), and if it causes an individual to commit other offences then they can be dealt with for those. But the very fact it is illegal allows criminal gangs to establish themselves as the only supply chain, which leads to many crimes directly due to supply and generates funding for them to move into other illegal activities. Legalising use opens the door to setting up a legal supply chain and regulating it in a similar way to tobacco and alcohol.
 

ainsworth74

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I really don't understand the frequently made argument that we should stop fighting against drugs because we haven't yet been able to stop people using drugs. I mean, despite decades (centuries for some crimes) in which things like dangerous driving, burglary, mugging people in the streets, or shoplifting have been illegal we still haven't been able to eliminate those those scourges on our society. Some things like shoplifting seem to be becoming completely rampant despite being illegal. Yet I bet no-one would argue that we should therefore give up and decriminalise those things/stop 'wasting' police time on them, in the way people seem to do for drugs (I realise you haven't actually said that in this post, but that's usually where disparaging comments about 'war on drugs' tend to lead)
No we haven't been able to eliminate them and I'm not sure that our current approach to issues like dangerous driving, shoplifting or mugging is particularly working either. But on the latter two that opens up very difficult and wider policy conversations around the link between them and rising levels of poverty as well as cuts to services like the police, social services as well as youth programmes and activities. As well as the increasing evidence that short sentences that crimes like shoplifting and mugging attract do far more harm overall than a community order or similar might achieve. Quite apart from the woeful state of our prisons meaning that nothing productive can be done with them to help them be rehabilitated certainly not in the short sentences they might currently get let alone a long sentence.

But, again, far easier to simply cry "lock them up! Tougher sentences!" than to try and tackle root causes of these issues.
...Who would presumably then simply then seek to supply and get more people addicted to more dangerous drugs instead. Or do you imagine that drugs gangs who find they can no longer make a fortune pushing softer drugs, would simply say, "OK guys, let's give up on our lucrative life of crime, become honest upright citizens and go get minimum wage jobs as shop assistants or something instead"? ;)
Obviously they won't, legalisation of weed in the US hasn't exactly stopped drug gangs over there now has it? But it seems bonkers to allow the drug gangs to make easy profits from something which should obviously be legal, regulated and taxed. Rather than prohibited and hidden away where only criminals can profit. But it is just part of the general issue that current drugs policy does not work and I do not see how getting "tougher on drugs" is actually going to achieve anything other than continuing to cause significant societal damage through, what often seems to be, purely moralistic outrage.

Singapore can pass a death sentence for anyone trafficking drugs above the below amounts (and if you're found with that much the presumption is that it was for trafficking purposes, unless you can prove otherwise):

Under Schedule 2 of the Misuse of Drugs Act, any person importing or exporting more than the following quantities of drugs receives a mandatory death sentence:
  • 1200 grams of opium and containing more than 30 grams of morphine (§5 and §7, (2)(b));
  • 30 grams of morphine (§5 and §7, (3)(b));
  • 15 grams of diamorphine (heroin) (diamo (§5 and §7, (4)(b));
  • 30 grams of cocaine (§5 and §7, (5)(b));
  • 500 grams of cannabis (§5 and §7, (6)(b));
  • 1000 grams of cannabis mixture (§5 and §7, (7)(b));
  • 200 grams of cannabis resin (§5 and §7, (8)(b));
  • 250 grams of methamphetamine (§5 and §7, (9)(b)).
Death sentences are also mandatory for any person caught manufacturing:
  • Morphine, or any salt of morphine, ester of morphine or salt of ester of morphine (§6, (2));
  • Diamorphine (heroin) or any salt of diamorphine (§6, (3));
  • Cocaine or any salt of cocaine (§6, (4));
  • Methamphetamine (§6, (5)).


And yet Singapore is not without drug users and abusers despite it being potentially legally terminal.

Far more sensible to take a holistic review of our approach to drugs from both treatment, legalisation, decriminalisation and enforcement. The Governments own advisers have told them that the current approach does not work and is potentially causing more harm than it cures but the Government tried to avoid revealing that information:

The UK government’s official drug advisers privately advocated for a formal repeal of the criminalisation of personal-use drug possession in 2016, a leaked document has revealed.

The Guardian has seen a copy of the 27-page pro-decriminalisation report, which the Home Office ignored at the time but then fought a three-year battle to keep confidential after a freedom of information request.

The report sent to the then home secretary by the former chair of the Advisory Council for the Misuse of Drugs highlighted a number of serious concerns around criminalising drug use. It is the only ACMD report not to have been published.

It said there was “little consistent international evidence that the criminalisation for possession of drugs for personal use is effective in reducing drug use”, that the UK was not required to criminalise drug use under its treaty obligations, and that criminalisation harmed people’s educational and employment prospects.

The ACMD recommended that “the Home Office reviews the personal possession offence (MDA). The review could result in the offence of possession for personal use being repealed.”


Our current drug policy does not work, causes harm to our own citizens and siphons vast sums of money into the pockets of criminals and then eventually fuels instability in places like Mexico and Colombia.

Hell it means we cannot even easily explore potentially life altering treatments that certain currently forbidden drugs could unlock. There is increasing evidence that psychedelics like Magic Mushrooms or MDMA might have a critical role to play in the treatment of PTSD, depression or other mental health problems but our drug laws are so restrictive that it is extremely difficult carry out research which could improve the lives of many people. Further we lost decades of time due to the absurd drug laws in most of the Western world that applied from the mid-20th century onwards. We're only just starting to uncover the potential of these substances for healthcare.

It is absurd to pretend that our current drugs policy is anything other than a failure which has, and is continuing to, cause huge damage to society and that the only solution is "JUST SAY NO" and ever tightening restrictions.

I'd say it rests on the premise that individual use of drugs causes relatively little harm to others (obviously depending on the drug and the quantity), and if it causes an individual to commit other offences then they can be dealt with for those. But the very fact it is illegal allows criminal gangs to establish themselves as the only supply chain, which leads to many crimes directly due to supply and generates funding for them to move into other illegal activities. Legalising use opens the door to setting up a legal supply chain and regulating it in a similar way to tobacco and alcohol.
Exactly!
 
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nw1

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Singapore can pass a death sentence for anyone trafficking drugs above the below amounts (and if you're found with that much the presumption is that it was for trafficking purposes, unless you can prove otherwise):




And yet Singapore is not without drug users and abusers despite it being potentially legally terminal.
It does demonstrate what a monstrously authoritarian and far-right society Singapore is.

While I have never taken illicit drugs and am very unlikely to ever do so, it's a country I would give a wide berth and avoid visiting because, on principle, I have no time for that kind of merciless authoritarianism.
 
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birchesgreen

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It does demonstrate what a monstrously authoritarian and far-right society Singapore is.

While I have never taken illicit drugs and am very unlikely to ever do so, it's a country I would give a wide berth and avoid visiting because, on principle, I have no time for that kind of merciless authoritarianism.
Its a bit dreary anyway, sanitized and fake. HK is a lot more fun.
 

AlterEgo

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It does demonstrate what a monstrously authoritarian and far-right society Singapore is.

While I have never taken illicit drugs and am very unlikely to ever do so, it's a country I would give a wide berth and avoid visiting because, on principle, I have no time for that kind of merciless authoritarianism.
Singapore is not a “far right” country, what utter tripe.
 

nw1

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Singapore is not a “far right” country, what utter tripe.

A country that imposes the death penalty for possession of 500g cannabis without proof that it's for dealing*? Really? A country that imposes caning as a legitimate punishment for vandalism?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of drug usage (and as I said, I have never taken nor intend to take any illegal drug, mostly out of concerns for my health), imposing the death penalty for that is, to my mind, an extreme - and I would personally say far-right in the law-and-order sense - measure.

(*and even if it was for dealing, is the death penalty not completely OTT as a response? After all, licensed dealers can do something similar in, say, Colorado without any legal reprisals whatsoever).
 
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birchesgreen

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S'pore is more a highly authoritarian centre-right quasi-dictatorship.

No wonder the Tories are keen on it.
 

nw1

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S'pore is more a highly authoritarian centre-right quasi-dictatorship.

No wonder the Tories are keen on it.

Not sure I'd call it centre-right though. "Right" can mean a number of things, including attitudes on law-and-order. By that measure at least, it's far-right, based on the evidence that I can see.
 

birchesgreen

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Not sure I'd call it centre-right though. "Right" can mean a number of things, including attitudes on law-and-order. By that measure at least, it's far-right, based on the evidence that I can see.
Well yes but not in a lot of other areas. As in all things it doesn't neatly fit into a pigeon hole.
 

nw1

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Well yes but not in a lot of other areas. As in all things it doesn't neatly fit into a pigeon hole.

Maybe yes. I think that the way Singapore is run in a law and order sense - more so than a lot of other countries - doesn't sit well with my own personal morality.
 

Purple Train

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Singapore is not a “far right” country, what utter tripe.
I suspect it depends if you follow the American metric or not. Generally in America, the left-right spectrum is more socially liberal-socially conservative, and over here, obviously it has traditionally been socialist-capitalist. I suspect @nw1 was inclining more towards the American metric.

I do take an interest in this kind of thing because, depending on which metric is used, I could fit into either (as I have learned the hard way when calling myself a leftist to Americans and they expect me to be more liberal than Dennis Skinner!) - they seem to be blurred now a lot more than they used to be.
 

nw1

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I suspect it depends if you follow the American metric or not. Generally in America, the left-right spectrum is more socially liberal-socially conservative, and over here, obviously it has traditionally been socialist-capitalist. I suspect @nw1 was inclining more towards the American metric.

I do take an interest in this kind of thing because, depending on which metric is used, I could fit into either (as I have learned the hard way when calling myself a leftist to Americans and they expect me to be more liberal than Dennis Skinner!) - they seem to be blurred now a lot more than they used to be.

That is what I was thinking, yes. To me, left-right has different aspects: economic, law-and-order, peace versus militarism (e.g. are you for or against Netanyahu's action in Gaza? Did you support the Iraq war?) and social issues (e.g attitudes towards minority rights).

I was focusing on the law-and-order metric here specifically.
 

bleeder4

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Very pleased with the Autumn Statement. The decrease in National Insurance and the increase in Minimum Wage will result in me earning more money each month from January. It could well be enough to earn them my vote in the next election.
 

nw1

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Very pleased with the Autumn Statement. The decrease in National Insurance and the increase in Minimum Wage will result in me earning more money each month from January. It could well be enough to earn them my vote in the next election.

This is almost certainly an "inducement" to get people to vote Tory, and is not typical of their general ethic. They have certainly never been the "caring-sharing" party. Would they do this with another 4 years in power ahead of them? I very, very much doubt it.

In any case, cutting NI seems a completely stupid idea. The government needs more income, not less, particularly with the growth in the number of older people. Remember the cost of cutting NI is reduced funds available for pensions and other benefits down the line.
 
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bahnause

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Very pleased with the Autumn Statement. The decrease in National Insurance and the increase in Minimum Wage will result in me earning more money each month from January. It could well be enough to earn them my vote in the next election.
It's like voting for Captain Schettino, because after he sinks the ship, he comes back three days later with a limited amount of uninflated buoyancy aids...
 

4COR

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Very pleased with the Autumn Statement. The decrease in National Insurance and the increase in Minimum Wage will result in me earning more money each month from January. It could well be enough to earn them my vote in the next election.
Yes, there is a boost for money in pocket. However, in real terms, for many people it is already effectively wiped out by the freezing of personal tax allowance thresholds with high inflation (or will be by the time the next election is done and dusted).
 

nw1

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It's like voting for Captain Schettino, because after he sinks the ship, he comes back three days later with a limited amount of uninflated buoyancy aids...

Indeed, I doubt that people will forgive the government just because of this. If they do, that will be very worrying: we'll be well on the way to being like Singapore in at least one respect, i.e. a defacto one-party state despite the presence of elections...
 

birchesgreen

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Indeed, I doubt that people will forgive the government just because of this. If they do, that will be very worrying: we'll be well on the way to being like Singapore, i.e. a defacto one-party state despite the presence of elections...
Disneyland with a death sentence :p

The changes will save the average worker 450 a year, thats less than 40 a month and many people will be below this average anyway. I don't think its time to put a deposit down on a Cybertruck just yet.
 

brad465

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Very pleased with the Autumn Statement. The decrease in National Insurance and the increase in Minimum Wage will result in me earning more money each month from January. It could well be enough to earn them my vote in the next election.
I've seen calculations circulating that even with this tax cut, the overall amount of tax paid for workers earning around an average salary will go up when combining average pay increase and the freezing of personal allowance (the most recommended comment on the FT report says this and you'd think if it was wrong someone on that site would easily debunk it).
 

jfollows

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I would have preferred to see the income tax thresholds increased to overcome "fiscal drag" but at least nothing happened with inheritance tax. The question I don't know the answer to is - how equitable would my preference be over what was actually done? Reducing NI doesn't help people who don't pay it - I don't, but others don't and won't benefit either. From my perspective the significant increase in the base tax-free allowance has been significant, but I would like to have seen this increase now.
 

nw1

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Also the government keep boasting about "reducing inflation". I've noticed the price of food, for example, is still going up. Where, then, is this reduction in inflation?
 

Gloster

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Without having studied it in detail, it looks like an election budget. Money for pensioners in the hope that they will vote Conservative in thanks. A slight increase in the minimum wage in the hope of the young doing the same. I will accept that both are reasonable measures, but I am dubious about the motives. The National Insurance is a sleight of hand trick: give a bit with one hand and take more with the other while they are looking at the money they have been given. It also produces less tax coming in and leaves a problem for the next Chancellor.
 

renegademaster

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It's an improvement over the status quo which would be a big real term tax rise instead only a small tax rise but still a tax rise considering fiscal drag
 

skyhigh

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And then extend it to all police officers, with mandatory DNA testing as in France where at least one mass murderer was eventually discovered.
Good idea. They should do that, maybe make it part of the vetting process as well...

(It already happens).
 

4COR

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Also the government keep boasting about "reducing inflation". I've noticed the price of food, for example, is still going up. Where, then, is this reduction in inflation?
Reducing inflation means prices aren't going up *as quick* - they are still increasing.

"Deflation" would be decreasing prices.
 

jfollows

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Also the government keep boasting about "reducing inflation". I've noticed the price of food, for example, is still going up. Where, then, is this reduction in inflation?
Yes, but
  1. even 0.1% inflation means that prices are going up
  2. the government did the square root of bugger all to reduce inflation, it was going to happen anyway
To me, the main issue with inflation is that it was "obvious" to me in 2020 that prices were bound to increase, but for some reason the Bank of England and, therefore, the government claimed that they weren't. And acted all "surprised" when they did. The Covid "shock" and the actions taken caused significant inflationary pressures which fed through in due course which didn't surprise me. Now the government is "claiming" it has reduced inflation when, conversely, it happened of its own accord anyway.

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Of course, what people really want is that "their" inflation rate (based on what they buy, not on what some index says) is less than the rate their income is rising - salary, pension, whatever.
EDIT Civil service index-linked pensions, for example, went up by 10% last year. I'm a deferred member of one of these, so my base pension went up by 10% although I'm not taking it yet. OK for some people.
 
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