Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[Mikey C]

the 373s were partially built in France (though no clue how that relates time-wise with Metro-Cammell closure)

The 373s were built about a decade before Metro-Cammell closed.

Alstom were in pole position to win a Southeastern order in 2019 which would have replaced all the EMUs, and they were part of the Stagecoach bid.
But the Stagecoach bid was disqualified and the franchise competition terminated so no order was forthcoming.
Alstom also lost out/withdrew from other bids because their technology did not suit the operators involved, or the DfT.

That as an odd partnership, after the problems Stagecoach had with the 458s!

Either way, Alstom "classic" failed to win any new orders since 2005, a time when CAF and Stadler have come from nowhere to win major orders in the UK.

 

[JonathanH]

Alstom were in pole position to win a Southeastern order in 2019 which would have replaced all the EMUs, and they were part of the Stagecoach bid.

All the EMUs including 375 and 395, or just the suburban fleet of 465, 466 and 376?

 

[Energy]

All the EMUs including 375 and 395, or just the suburban fleet of 465, 466 and 376?

Only SE metro replacement has been planned in recent times.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All the EMUs including 375 and 395, or just the suburban fleet of 465, 466 and 376?

I don't know the details, but it was posed as a "mass extinction" as happened at GA, where modern trains as well as old were dumped by new build.

 

[Dan G]

Additional trailers would have 1 motor bogie each.

They have offered bi-mode and hydrogen.

There has been been a proposal for diesel with mechanical/hydraulic transmission option as a direct turbostar replacement

They have? When? For whom?

 

[Peter Sarf]

That’s an oxymoron! A trailer doesn’t have motors. That’s why it is called a trailer.

I was assuming the intermediate coaches were trailers but questioning in brackets if they would be motored vehicles instead.

And the answer straight away from @hwl is that they would have one bogie motored. - As per below.

Additional trailers would have 1 motor bogie each.

They have offered bi-mode and hydrogen.

There has been been a proposal for diesel with mechanical/hydraulic transmission option as a direct turbostar replacement

So not quite as simple to copy as a trailer but not probably not as bad as copying a driving coach plus all the traction control and signalling equipment.

 

[Mikey C]

I don't know the details, but it was posed as a "mass extinction" as happened at GA, where modern trains as well as old were dumped by new build.

Which would have been crazy, if a massive fleet of Electrostars (375 and 376) was left unused.

Indeed that's been part of the problem with recent massive fleet orders causing a big bulge in production to churn out the new units, followed by a famine AND a number of spare units as alternatives to producing new trains.

 

[43096]

Additional trailers would have 1 motor bogie each.

If they have a motor bogie then they’re not a trailer!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Which would have been crazy, if a massive fleet of Electrostars (375 and 376) was left unused.
Indeed that's been part of the problem with recent massive fleet orders causing a big bulge in production to churn out the new units, followed by a famine AND a number of spare units as alternatives to producing new trains.

But that was mainly caused by the "cheap money" period after 2008 and very low interest rates for a decade and more.
The previous train builds (Electrostar, Desiro etc) were "expensive" to build and lease and so became unpopular with operators (eg 379s, 350/2s).
Derby was a big beneficiary of that era because it led to very large orders for its Aventra, before the fleets they was replacing were life-expired.
We are seeing a reversal of fortunes now that money is "expensive" again..

 

[Mikey C]

But that was mainly caused by the "cheap money" period after 2008 and very low interest rates for a decade and more.
The previous train builds (Electrostar, Desiro etc) were "expensive" to build and lease and so became unpopular with operators (eg 379s, 350/2s).
Derby was a big beneficiary of that era because it led to very large orders for its Aventra, before the fleets they was replacing were life-expired.
We are seeing a reversal of fortunes now that money is "expensive" again..

For keeping a manufacturing base, spreading out the orders would have been more beneficial...

 

[hwl]

I was assuming the intermediate coaches were trailers but questioning in brackets if they would be motored vehicles instead.

And the answer straight away from @hwl is that they would have one bogie motored. - As per below.

So not quite as simple to copy as a trailer but not probably not as bad as copying a driving coach plus all the traction control and signalling equipment.

Vehicles 1,2,4,6,8 & 9 have 1 motor bogie each
Vehicles 3 and 7 have 2 motor bogies each
Vehicle 5 has no motor bogies

The most likely location for new vehicles would be between the existing 1st + 2nd and 8th + 9th vehicles.

 

[jayah]

The problem is, this was always going to happen somewhere down the pipeline - it’s the boom and bust nature of the business.

Derby has been busy (and lucky) to have a very large order books over the recent years from the Turbostar families, to the Electrostar families, to the London Underground contacts, then Aventra’s and eventually HS2. With the Aventra family now nearly completed, redundancies were always going to happen.

It perhaps also hasn’t helped Alstom that we now have CAF, Hitachi and Siemens also assembling in the UK, a government with a lack of ambition (particularly with regards to electrification) and the somewhat undesirable reliability of the Aventra fleets so far (eg XR 345 & SWR 701) which I’d have thought quite likely, to give anyone smart enough cold feet for the time being on any further orders.

The UK can't really support 4 major train plants, although I will suggest none are UK owned, none really manufacture trains or major components and most of the value chain is still abroad.

The past 20yrs have seen far too many EMU builds, too many small orders, too much money spent on type approval for microfleets and not enough diesels / bi-mode built to replace Class 142-166.

 

[Sonik]

For keeping a manufacturing base, spreading out the orders would have been more beneficial...

Indeed, but that would require the sort of industrial policy that the current government are ideologically opposed to.

The current model is based only on open competition with no consideration for the strategic value of the industrial & engineering base.

 

[HSTEd]

For keeping a manufacturing base, spreading out the orders would have been more beneficial...

Spreading out the orders would have resulted in costs from continuing to lease expensive trains for longer.

The reality is the Government is currently trying to maintain far too much productive capacity for the demand available.

The UK needs something like 400 passenger rail vehicles per year on average, that's enough for one really efficient production site.
I think the current count is four?

 

[Invincible]

Spreading out the orders would have resulted in costs from continuing to lease expensive trains for longer.

The reality is the Government is currently trying to maintain far too much productive capacity for the demand available.

The UK needs something like 400 passenger rail vehicles per year on average, that's enough for one really efficient production site.
I think the current count is four?

But 3 are mostly assembly plants with components from overseas, whereas Derby makes a full train (apart from outsourcing software which has caused problems).
From BBC News it "understands 550 permanent jobs and 780 temporary jobs are at risk".
One problem is that the current leasing model is not good as interest rates are high, so not worth placing orders if it is worth waiting for interest rates fall. But could be too late for Derby's workforce?.

What could be needed is capital for a train company to buy, rather than lease, some new bi mode diesel/battery Aventras.

 

[43096]

But 3 are mostly assembly plants with components from overseas, whereas Derby makes a full train (apart from outsourcing software which has caused problems).

Derby is an assembly site, like the others.

 

[Energy]

But 3 are mostly assembly plants with components from overseas, whereas Derby makes a full train (apart from outsourcing software which has caused problems).

Does it? Derby's supply chain hasn't been especially British since Adtranz days. The traction equipment was made in Vasteras, Sweden AFAIK.

 

[JonathanH]

There is a piece on the UK components of a Derby built unit in this article.

https://thenewwiperstimes.com/2017/09/21/building-bombardiers-aventra-madeinengland/

In terms of what doesn’t come from the UK, as discussed previously, the bogies are built by Bombardier in Siegen, Germany at their Bogie Technical Centre, yet components do come from the UK, whilst windows come from Lipik Glas in Croatia, which has been the case for some time with most Bombardier trains built in Derby, including the Electrostar and S-Stock.

 

[Dan G]

On the other hand, aiui the Aventra's traction motors are American and the FlexxEco bogies are built in Germany.

As long as whoever makes the bits is paid at least as much as British workers and enjoy the same safety and other standards (i.e. it's a level playing field), I don't think it matters where things are made.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On the other hand, aiui the Aventra's traction motors are American and the FlexxEco bogies are built in Germany.

As long as whoever makes the bits is paid at least as much as British workers and enjoy the same safety and other standards (i.e. it's a level playing field), I don't think it matters where things are made.

As long as they buy some of our trains (assembled here) - but that is rare.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the other hand, aiui the Aventra's traction motors are American and the FlexxEco bogies are built in Germany.

I'd be surprised if the Aventra electrics were not from Västerås, Sweden (formerly ASEA, now Alstom).

 

[Energy]

I'd be surprised if the Aventra electrics were not from Västerås, Sweden (formerly ASEA, now Alstom).

MITRAC (Bombardier's traction system) is handled by Vasteras. The central line retraction and Electrostar traction equipment were both definetley handled by Vasteras.

Derby has never made its own traction equipment, back in BREL it was bought in from Brush, GEC, etc.

Unsuprisingly when Derby became part of ABB/Adtranz traction came from elsewhere in the parent company rather than external companies.

 

[hwl]

On the other hand, aiui the Aventra's traction motors are American and the FlexxEco bogies are built in Germany.

As long as whoever makes the bits is paid at least as much as British workers and enjoy the same safety and other standards (i.e. it's a level playing field), I don't think it matters where things are made.

The motor cooling concept (and patents) allowing the motor to be longer and more powerful than competitors while still having disc brakes on the motor axles was from Bombardier US. The actual motors etc. are another matter...

Bombardier electric systems are strongly linked to ABB (ABB were co-owners of Adtranz which Bombardier bought ~20years ago) with ex-Bombardier still having design (and productions) sites adjacent to ABB's current sites in Vasteras (formerly Asea) and Brown Boveri Strasse in Oerlikon (Zurich).

 

[Snow1964]

A company which paints new rail carriages at Alstom’s troubled Litchurch Lane site in Derby has edged closer to admimistration

Paintbox Transportation Services, which is part of the Paintbox Group, has posted a second notice of intention (NOI) to appointment administrators, which is aimed at protecting the company from creditor action.

The move follows an initial NOI posted on November 13.

The Paintbox Group had also posted a NOI for its Paintbox Banbury business, which paints and assembles full vehicle and lightweight car body panels. The facility specialises in bespoke vehicle painting and coating of carbon and composite materials.

However, this part of the business was last week sold to PB Editions, a subsidiary of Brightborough Group.

The news comes at a worrying time for all staff at Alstom’s Derby site. The train builder could be set to shed 1,300 jobs and is in the middle of a staff consultation after it emerged that the UK’s largest rail assembly planthas no orders beyond the first three months of next year.

Alstom is set to start work on trains for the London to Birmingham HS2 line in late 2026, but there remains a sizeable workload gap at the factory.

Train painting firm edges closer to administration | TheBusinessDesk.com

The company, which is based at Alstom's troubled Derby site, is looking at an uncertain future

www.thebusinessdesk.com

 

[Peter Sarf]

Train painting firm edges closer to administration | TheBusinessDesk.com

The company, which is based at Alstom's troubled Derby site, is looking at an uncertain future

www.thebusinessdesk.com

It is probably all the suppliers to Derby works that will really increase the job loss figures.

When Chatham Naval Dockyard shut down we noticed all the other manufacturing industry die off quite soon after. Not just suppliers but wholly different manufacturers for example two competing road paver machine manufacturers (tarmac laying). It really was the end of non-office work in the Medway towns.

 

[Dan G]

It is probably all the suppliers to Derby works that will really increase the job loss figures.

When Chatham Naval Dockyard shut down we noticed all the other manufacturing industry die off quite soon after. Not just suppliers but wholly different manufacturers for example two competing road paver machine manufacturers (tarmac laying). It really was the end of non-office work in the Medway towns.

Erm, apart from BAE Systems Rochester! And the many other companies linked with it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Erm, apart from BAE Systems Rochester! And the many other companies linked with it.

Oops - I forgot all about that. And my second proper job was up at that airport site when Fisher Control were moving out to their site in Strood early 1980s (now a Morrisons). Yes I can remember it as far back as Marconi Avionics iirc.

But Medway has a lot less than it had back in the 1970s. Not that Medway was the only victim of the UKs race to dispense with making anything. Not saying it was obviously profitable but its been a downward spiral.

Lets just hope that in the case of the fall of Derby (IF) that the alternatives set up by Hitachi, Siemens and CAF have a long term future. Long gone is "The Austin" factory in Longbridge (Birmingham) but the Japanese have invested elsewhere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It is probably all the suppliers to Derby works that will really increase the job loss figures.

It's a complex supply chain.
UK-specific parts (eg TPWS) are on all UK-pattern trains, even those supplied by Hitachi/CAF/Siemens etc.
So Derby losing a order does not necessarily mean the suppliers lose out, as long as an order for UK trains is placed somewhere.
Seats, and internal fittings generally, must be another area where suppliers will bid to all manufacturers whoever does the final assembly.
And as we know, the customer (ie the TOC/DfT) might well get to choose what internals to go for, and therefore which suppliers get the business.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems the Parliament Transport Committee (cross party) is meeting tomorrow (Wednesday 6th Dec) to discuss train building /supply

The Transport Committee will investigate uncertainty in the train manufacturing sector.

The one-off session follows recent news that manufacturer Alstom may make large numbers of staff at its factory in Derby redundant.

Likely areas of questioning​

MPs will examine the Government’s and the wider sector’s strategy for ensuring rolling stock is fit for the future needs of the rail sector, and whether the manufacturing industry has a sustainable pipeline of orders from domestic and international customers.

There are also questions around whether the cancellation of the Birmingham-to-Manchester leg of HS2 has had a significant impact on the manufacturers’ order books.

The cross-party Committee will also examine the industry’s efforts to decarbonise through electrification and alternative fuels. Just 38% of the rail network is currently electrified.

Questions around the future role of Great British Railways as a guiding mind for the sector, and strategies for procuring rolling stock, are likely to be raised.

Among the witnesses will be David Clarke, Technical Director of the Railway Industry Association (RIA), whose membership includes 350 companies. In a July 2023 report the RIA said: “Urgent decisions are needed this year to prevent a crisis and job losses in the rolling stock upgrade industry.”

He will be joined by Nick Crossfield, Managing Director of Alstom UK & Ireland. In December 2021 Alstom, alongside Hitachi, was awarded a joint contract to build HS2 trains.

Also attending will be Angel Trains Chief Executive Malcolm Brown. His company owns and maintains 4,274 passenger vehicles, with a further 605 on order.

https://committees.parliament.uk/event/19488

Meeting starts 9:30am, and can be watched

Parliamentlive.tv

Transport Committee

parliamentlive.tv

 

[Beemax]

Seems the Parliament Transport Committee (cross party) is meeting tomorrow (Wednesday 6th Dec) to discuss train building /supply

https://committees.parliament.uk/event/19488

Meeting starts 9:30am, and can be watched

Parliamentlive.tv

Transport Committee

parliamentlive.tv

Worth watching the above. One of the main points is that once the Aventra production line stops in about six weeks time, there will be a dearth of orders until things really start to pick up from 2027 onwards . Derby will probably survive but it will be an assembly plant employing hundreds, rather than a full manufacturing plant employing thousands. Many of the components/ sub assemblies will come from Africa and China and once we lose the capability of being a full manufacturer, we won't gain it again.