Great Western Railway in Manchester

[mphughes]

The Great Western Railway had access to Manchester Exchange (and Manchester London Road stations).

The GWR and the LNWR took over the Birkenhead Railway in 1860 and this gave the GWR running powers into Manchester Exchange. The Birkenhead Railway remained a joint railway until 1948, and the GWR timetable advertised trains from Chester to Manchester (via Warrington and the original Liverpool and Manchester route).

I have seen a British Railways "Working of Coaches and Vans in Through Trains" supplement that suggests the trains were still using this route in summer 1953.

So, this is my question: when was the last time that a GWR locomotive hauled a train to Manchester Exchange, and does anyone know which locomotive it was?

 

[irish_rail]

Sorry I cannot help with your request, but I do love the idea of GWR working into Manchester, Chester and Liverpool and think it's a shame in a way that no such services exist today ex Paddington or Bristol.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A previous thread on here from 2017 suggested, rightly or wrongly, that GWR engines, possibly a 3200 class 'Dukedog', may have worked to / from Manchester Exchange until c. 1943 (so maybe some ten years earlier).

Destinations From Manchester Exchange.

I know it shut in 69 and I only used the platforms when alighting the train from Tyldesley, just wondering what other routes it served before Victoria became the main station in that area.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[6Gman]

Sorry I cannot help with your request, but I do love the idea of GWR working into Manchester, Chester and Liverpool and think it's a shame in a way that no such services exist today ex Paddington or Bristol.

Did they ever operate into Liverpool? I know they had a freight depot there but my understanding was that goods were shipped (literally) to Birkenhead for dispatch from there.

 

[Gloster]

The GWR’s depot in Liverpool appears to have been on Manchester Dock, between Canning Dock and the Mersey (and just over the Mersey Railway tunnel). It doesn’t appear to have been rail connected, but was presumably convenient for barges to cross to Birkenhead.

 

[irish_rail]

Did they ever operate into Liverpool? I know they had a freight depot there but my understanding was that goods were shipped (literally) to Birkenhead for dispatch from there.

There is a building at Albert Dock (in central Liverpool) that has GWR plastered on the side of it, so I assumed they went into Liverpool. Though it does seem Birkenhead was more plausible.

 

[Gloster]

There is a building at Albert Dock (in central Liverpool) that has GWR plastered on the side of it, so I assumed they went into Liverpool. Though it does seem Birkenhead was more plausible.

The GWR building seems to be just north the old Canning Graving Dock No.1; just beyond it was the old (and small) Manchester Dock. According to Wikipedia the Dock was filled in by 1936 as it was suffering from subsidence caused by the construction of the Queensway (road) Tunnel. The goods was carried to and from the Morpeth Dock, north of Woodside, in Birkenhead. Which leaves the question: what happened after Manchester Dock was filled in, as it was no longer possible to load directly between barge and shed?

 

[John Luxton]

The GWR building seems to be just north the old Canning Graving Dock No.1; just beyond it was the old (and small) Manchester Dock. According to Wikipedia the Dock was filled in by 1936 as it was suffering from subsidence caused by the construction of the Queensway (road) Tunnel. The goods was carried to and from the Morpeth Dock, north of Woodside, in Birkenhead. Which leaves the question: what happened after Manchester Dock was filled in, as it was no longer possible to load directly between barge and shed?

There are photographs around of Birkenhead Ferry Luggage Boats with GWR vans on board. The "Luggage Boats" was the name given to the vehicle ferries operating across the Mersey before the Birkenhead Tunnel opened in 1934. After that the goods would have come by road using the dock branch to access Canning. GWR also had an office in nearby James St, the address appears in some old ads.

 

[Taunton]

We have indeed discussed this more than once. Passenger trains on the Chester to Warrington joint line do seem principally to have been run mostly by the LNWR, but a few were by GWR, and odd ones going on by running powers to Manchester. It was common in former times on joint lines to have some formula for who provided what, both for cost (operating and permanent way etc) and revenue, which seems to have been averaged across multiple joint lines - for example, the GWR were more dominant on the equally joint Shrewsbury to Hereford, and had running powers over the 1.5 miles of LNWR west of Chester to where the GWR main line turned off. This could lead to certain trains being operated by say the LNWR for a period, and then by the GWR. The little joint branch from Hooton to West Kirby does seem to have been operated 50-50 by the two partners.

The main advantage of Manchester access for the GWR was not passenger but through freight, avoiding handing over to the LNWR at Shrewsbury. There would have been a GWR freight agent in Manchester looking for business to Birmingham, West London, and even say Cork in Ireland, routing via Fishguard instead of Holyhead. There was an overnight "fast" freight from Birkenhead to Paddington Goods, long run by one of the handful of 47xx locos, which attached through wagons at Chester.

Distribution within London also came into it. Apparently the LMS were a laggard in this compared to the others, well into the 1920s, and possibly early 1930s, the LMS were still doing horse-hauled cartage around inner London, compared to the other railways. An article about road traffic over London Bridge in that era said if there was ever a hold up on the bridge behind one of the few remaining horse-drawn lorries, chances were it was an LMS one.

 

[Gloster]

There was in 1933 a Manchester-Bristol and v.v. overnight goods and a similiar service to and from Oxley; the Manchester terminal was the ex-LNWR one at Liverpool Road. It was Class D to Chester and C thereafter; hauled by a Hall thoughout it ran via the North & West. The locomotives were stabled at Patricroft, but did not go into Exchange.

Until the goods pooling agreement of 1933, the GWR had a warehouse and staff at Liverpool Road.

Source: GWR Goods Train Working, Volume 2 (Atkins, Crecy, 2017).

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The GWR warehouse at Liverpool Road, Manchester is still with us and indeed is the main entrance to the Science and Industry Museum. The approach viaduct was unfortunately destroyed by the ill-fated Ordsall Chord.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Doesn't the Great Northern Warehouse on Deansgate have something to do with the Great Western too? Maybe one end was used by them. It's near the Science Museum anyway, really halfway between it and the GMex.

 

[Signalmans Eye]

The GWR warehouse at Liverpool Road, Manchester is still with us and indeed is the main entrance to the Science and Industry Museum. The approach viaduct was unfortunately destroyed by the ill-fated Ordsall Chord.

The Great Western Railway had access to Manchester Exchange (and Manchester London Road stations).

The GWR and the LNWR took over the Birkenhead Railway in 1860 and this gave the GWR running powers into Manchester Exchange. The Birkenhead Railway remained a joint railway until 1948, and the GWR timetable advertised trains from Chester to Manchester (via Warrington and the original Liverpool and Manchester route).

I have seen a British Railways "Working of Coaches and Vans in Through Trains" supplement that suggests the trains were still using this route in summer 1953.

So, this is my question: when was the last time that a GWR locomotive hauled a train to Manchester Exchange, and does anyone know which locomotive it was?

I recommend reading Salford in the days of Steam. pp 11/12/129 ,by P Shackcloth. gives an insight of GWR to M/c Exchange

 

[Merle Haggard]

There was in 1933 a Manchester-Bristol and v.v. overnight goods and a similiar service to and from Oxley; the Manchester terminal was the ex-LNWR one at Liverpool Road. It was Class D to Chester and C thereafter; hauled by a Hall thoughout it ran via the North & West. The locomotives were stabled at Patricroft, but did not go into Exchange.

Until the goods pooling agreement of 1933, the GWR had a warehouse and staff at Liverpool Road.

Source: GWR Goods Train Working, Volume 2 (Atkins, Crecy, 2017).

I have a vague recollection that ex G.W. engines were sometimes on Patricroft (puzzling 'spotters) in more recent days - 1950s, possibly early 1960s???

 

[emjaytee]

There was in 1933 a Manchester-Bristol and v.v. overnight goods and a similiar service to and from Oxley; the Manchester terminal was the ex-LNWR one at Liverpool Road. It was Class D to Chester and C thereafter; hauled by a Hall thoughout it ran via the North & West. The locomotives were stabled at Patricroft, but did not go into Exchange.

Until the goods pooling agreement of 1933, the GWR had a warehouse and staff at Liverpool Road.

Source: GWR Goods Train Working, Volume 2 (Atkins, Crecy, 2017).

In addition there were 3 GW Class F Goods from Manchester to Saltney (according to GW Summer 1936 Service TT). From Patricroft at 4.0am, Ordsall Lane at 10.30am, & Liverpool Road at 11.25pm. The 8.08pm Bristol goods is actually classified as class E(cross) whereas Atkins makes it a class D. There were also a few GW goods to/from Warrington.

 

[Signalmans Eye]

I have a vague recollection that ex G.W. engines were sometimes on Patricroft (puzzling 'spotters) in more recent days - 1950s, possibly early 1960s???

Well in all my days spottin in 50s 60s never known or heard of GW engines at Patricroft

 

[52290]

In July 1958 I traveled from Bristol to Manchester London Road on a through train , via the Severn Tunnel, which was hauled by a Shrewsbury "Castle" 5038 as far as its home town where it was replaced by a BR standard 5MT, also from Shrewsbury shed, for the rest of the journey.

 

[emjaytee]

I recommend reading Salford in the days of Steam. pp 11/12/129 ,by P Shackcloth. gives an insight of GWR to M/c Exchange

Thanks for that tip - I've just acquired a copy, several photos I haven't seen & lots of detail of loco & train working.
Martin