CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[craigybagel]

I also have a question on the driving that someone may be able to answer? When I travelled, it was a slippy old day, yet the driver seemed to apply a very high amount of power from a standing start , with inevitable slippage. This also continued after what I believe was a driver changeover, so is the initial power notch vastly over powered? Or is it an example of poor training / inexperience? Any help appreciated.

Fascinating. Presumably this is the reason they always “jolt” forwards when starting off as well?

Just to add to this, most of the time you can use the lowest power setting on the PBC to overcome the parking brake, and it'll set off fairly smoothly even in slippy season. The problem is on some units it takes a lot more power to overcome the parking brake - and by the time you do, it's like trying to go immediately to 50% or more power - which on a very powerful and light unit is obviously going to cause issues on a slippy rail. I tend to watch for the brake needle to fall and reduce power then (which is also how we couple and uncouple) but if reduce power too early the train won't move. It's a bit of a steep learning curve for drivers used to units where we have full control of the brakes.

Why they're set up like this I have no idea, but it's not ideal. In almost every other aspect for a driver they're great units to drive - but they don't make you look smooth

 

[Lurcheroo]

Just to add to this, most of the time you can use the lowest power setting on the PBC to overcome the parking brake, and it'll set off fairly smoothly even in slippy season. The problem is on some units it takes a lot more power to overcome the parking brake - and by the time you do, it's like trying to go immediately to 50% or more power - which on a very powerful and light unit is obviously going to cause issues on a slippy rail. I tend to watch for the brake needle to fall and reduce power then (which is also how we couple and uncouple) but if reduce power too early the train won't move. It's a bit of a steep learning curve for drivers used to units where we have full control of the brakes.

Why they're set up like this I have no idea, but it's not ideal. In almost every other aspect for a driver they're great units to drive - but they don't make you look smooth

Ohh thanks for this ! As I say I have almost no practical handling experience yet but I will actually keep this in mind as I try to get to grips with it!
So it differs a fair bit between different 197 units then ?

 

[Bikeman78]

if TFW have done their math properly and they don’t have to routinely short form like they do now due to lack of units, then it happening once in a blue moon due to a unit failure, even if it results in a overly busy service, then that’s certainly better than a total cancellation.

I can see the logic but it doesn't happen like that in reality. Taking Cardiff to Paddington as an example, I cannot recall a single outright cancellation of an HST that I planned to travel on in 20 odd years. I've already run out of fingers to count the five vice 10 formations in five years.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I can see the logic but it doesn't happen like that in reality. Taking Cardiff to Paddington as an example, I cannot recall a single outright cancellation of an HST that I planned to travel on in 20 odd years. I've already run out of fingers to count the five vice 10 formations in five years.

It definitely doesn’t for GWR as they don’t have enough units to routinely provide the capacity they say they should. I’m new to this game, but I’ve never heard of complaints about not enough HST’s for the work they were required to do.
Time will tell if TFW have ordered enough units to reliably provide the extra capacity they promise. I personally think it looks like things will shape up well. I only pray it does.

 

[craigybagel]

Recent experience on the railway has shown time and time again that as soon as a service is booked for 2 sets, then there is a real risk of short forming and this seems to occur time and time again. Better to have specified 5 car sets in the first instance in my opinion.

The thing is though, there's quite a few services 197s will be working where anything more than a 2 car would be a massive waste. Hence the flexibility of multiple units.

Ohh thanks for this ! As I say I have almost no practical handling experience yet but I will actually keep this in mind as I try to get to grips with it!
So it differs a fair bit between different 197 units then ?

Yup, and I've not found any way of predicting it yet. More experiments required!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The thing is though, there's quite a few services 197s will be working where anything more than a 2 car would be a massive waste. Hence the flexibility of multiple units.

I can only think of the Conwy Valley in winter and the infrequent Pembrokeshire shuttles?

 

[anthony263]

I can only think of the Conwy Valley in winter and the infrequent Pembrokeshire shuttles?

2155 Cardiff to Crewe service Monday to Thursdays

 

[craigybagel]

I can only think of the Conwy Valley in winter and the infrequent Pembrokeshire shuttles?

Cambrian Coast 99% of the time, Crewe - Shrewsbury local.. I'll be interested in seeing how busy Swanline gets when it goes up to an hourly service as well.

There's also plenty of services where multiples of 2 make much more sense than multiples of 3. In the long term plan there's only a tiny amount of services planned for 6 cars - but without the 2 car sets you have a big leap in capacity from 3 cars to 6 and an awful lot of services that fit in the gap in between.

2155 Cardiff to Crewe service Monday to Thursdays

To be fair, if you include late night/early services like that you could list pretty much every route in the country! But it should save a bit of diesel not having to cart around lots of empty units late at night.

It does amuse me though when I see people complain about that particular service. If they actually bothered traveling on it they'd soon learn that the single booked PRM 153 has more than enough capacity.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Cambrian Coast 99% of the time

Have you travelled in summer? They've even started running a 4car 158 set this summer (when enough units available)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2023 ==

I can see the logic but it doesn't happen like that in reality. Taking Cardiff to Paddington as an example, I cannot recall a single outright cancellation of an HST that I planned to travel on in 20 odd years. I've already run out of fingers to count the five vice 10 formations in five years.

I think on other threads it's been said that turbos covered vice HSTs to Oxford and beyond so Wales and west kept their HSTs running on several occasions

 

[superalbs]

Yes it does but I think it’s the kind of thing you just get used to as a driver.


That does seem to be the case unfortunately. The software was altered in regards to coupling units as that was all computer governed and very rough so I had hoped that it might have been changed in regards to setting off also but it hasn’t been.


Someone on a Facebook page had a note of how many passenger carrying vehicles were left to TFW from ATW and how many their ‘future fleet’ incorporated and it was a significant increase. That was also before the additional MK4’s. I’ll have to see if I can dig the numbers out.



I have also heard that there is consideration of bringing the 231’s north towards Shrewsbury.
I’ve put it in its own thread along with probable declassification of business class on the 197’s.

TFW FLIRT and 197 buisness class rumours

For mods, if this thread needs moving or splitting then please feel free. So today, I have been told that there are currently considerations for the Class 231 FLIRT's to make their way North of Cardiff towards shrewbury (exact route north of Shrewsbury unknown). Secondly I was told that the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Last plan I heard was final testing of 197’s in December then crew training starts next June/ July with 197’s into service on the Cambrian in December 2024.

Why are we calling first class 'business class' all of a sudden? Did I miss something?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Cambrian Coast 99% of the time

To be fair, a good number of Cambrian mainline services are fine with 2 cars most of the year in terms of passenger loading.

Have you travelled in summer? They've even started running a 4car 158 set this summer (when enough units available)

May half term and 6 weeks of summer are totally mad when the weather is nice, the 10:55 from Mach which is the 4 car service, crazy busy that one and 4 is the minimum it should be.
The issue is all the other services are still planned to be 2 cars during the summer which isn’t enough. In my opinion 3 cars would be bang on but we can’t have that as it stands, so they would need doubling to 4 but I’ve not heard of any plans to do so.

Why are we calling first class 'business class' all of a sudden? Did I miss something?

TFW have specifically differentiated it from 1st class on the MK4’s.
I don’t know if anything official has ever been said by TFW but I have actually seen ‘standard plus’ internally.

 

[craigybagel]

Have you travelled in summer? They've even started running a 4car 158 set this summer (when enough units available)

May half term and 6 weeks of summer are totally mad when the weather is nice, the 10:55 from Mach which is the 4 car service, crazy busy that one and 4 is the minimum it should be.

Yes I have travelled in summer. I also speak to my colleagues who work down there. But it's 7 weeks a year, assuming all of them are good weather (in Wales?!). And it's not even every service in summer that's busy.

It would be crazy to dedicate limited resources to the Cambrian coast all year round just because on hot days in summer a few trains get busy.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes I have travelled in summer. I also speak to my colleagues who work down there. But it's 7 weeks a year, assuming all of them are good weather (in Wales?!). And it's not even every service in summer that's busy.

It would be crazy to dedicate limited resources to the Cambrian coast all year round just because on hot days in summer a few trains get busy.

I can imagine the only solution to short term peaks is to pull units of daytime maintenance and hope to get them serviced overnight (overtime ?). Alternatively maybe a few rush hour workings get away with slightly less stock in the summer. But gone are the days when little used Mark1 coaches and a freight locomotive could be brought out for the odd summer peak working.

 

[Western 52]

Any update on when 197s will work west of Carmarthen?

 

[superalbs]

TFW have specifically differentiated it from 1st class on the MK4’s.
I don’t know if anything official has ever been said by TFW but I have actually seen ‘standard plus’ internally.

Makes sense, it doesnt look incredible.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are there any updates on the long-accepted but never used 197045 please?

Also, it’s been a while since we had a new one in service. Are there any expected introductions for the remaining 005, 102, 103 or 107?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Are there any updates on the long-accepted but never used 197045 please?

Also, it’s been a while since we had a new one in service. Are there any expected introductions for the remaining 005, 102, 103 or 107?

You know, I thought I remembered someone asking about 045! It’s currently sat on road 8 in CAF shed at Chester.
Unfortunately, I can not tell you why it is there sorry.

 

[Peter Sarf]

You know, I thought I remembered someone asking about 045! It’s currently sat on road 8 in CAF shed at Chester.
Unfortunately, I can not tell you why it is there sorry.

My guess, based on sods law and previous new fleet experience, is that 197045 is becoming a Christmas tree.
There is bound to be one, there always is !.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Recent experience on the railway has shown time and time again that as soon as a service is booked for 2 sets, then there is a real risk of short forming and this seems to occur time and time again. Better to have specified 5 car sets in the first instance in my opinion.

If a 5-car single set was booked and broke down, you'd have a cancellation. If a 2 and a 3 were booked and one had a fault, you'd still have a train of some description.

 

[GWVillager]

If a 5-car single set was booked and broke down, you'd have a cancellation. If a 2 and a 3 were booked and one had a fault, you'd still have a train of some description.

I think the thinking is more:
If a 5 car set failed, another 5 car would be brought out from the depot to replace it. If one of a 2+3 set failed, it would be more likely to run short for the rest of the day, as there’s still a train and coupling a new unit on would be quite inconvenient.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why are we calling first class 'business class' all of a sudden? Did I miss something?

The long-running Holyhead-Cardiff service was called "Premier" rather than First, even though they levied First Class fares.
With Manchester-Cardiff added and the multiple sets being identical, they have gone for the more generic "Business" instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are we calling first class 'business class' all of a sudden? Did I miss something?

It's lesser than the First Class product on the Mk4s so presumably would be sold cheaper (as Advance/upgrade, doubt they will mess with the walk up First Class fares).

 

[Jamesrob637]

I think the thinking is more:
If a 5 car set failed, another 5 car would be brought out from the depot to replace it. If one of a 2+3 set failed, it would be more likely to run short for the rest of the day, as there’s still a train and coupling a new unit on would be quite inconvenient.

If a 5-car failed at a few minutes' notice, you wouldn't be able to replace it. Your point stands, however, if it failed a good couple of hours in advance.

 

[Caaardiff]

I think the thinking is more:
If a 5 car set failed, another 5 car would be brought out from the depot to replace it. If one of a 2+3 set failed, it would be more likely to run short for the rest of the day, as there’s still a train and coupling a new unit on would be quite inconvenient.

Which is great if you have a 5 car set sat around doing nothing and the failed set happened to have failed near the Depot.
The former is more convenient for how GWR works.
The latter is much more convenient for how TFW works. TFW do a lot of unit splits across the network at places like Shrewsbury, Chester, Swansea, Carmarthen. Meaning things can be swapped around easily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The former is more convenient for how GWR works.

Despite which, if GWR has planned a 10 they do sometimes drop it to a 5 in preference to cancelling if one unit does have a fault.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

My guess, based on sods law and previous new fleet experience, is that 197045 is becoming a Christmas tree.
There is bound to be one, there always is !.

You'd hope there wasn't the need to sacrifice a unit for parts this early on in the class' life, not even fully rolled out yet.

 

[Peter Sarf]

You'd hope there wasn't the need to sacrifice a unit for parts this early on in the class' life, not even fully rolled out yet.

I agree, but....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I agree, but....

Parts haven't been mentioned as an issue up until now I don't think?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Parts haven't been mentioned as an issue up until now I don't think?

I have not noticed with 197s. But something that seems to happen is that a unit at the depot needs parts and they take them of a less usable unit.

If a new build unit has a dudd part then the temptation might be to rob a part from an ailing unit rather than wait for a part from the units' manufacturer. By the end of the production run there might be a slight shortage of parts. Lets face it everything is ordered with an optimistic level of stock availability. It follows the manufacturer is going to order as few spare parts as it needs to. So it could take quite a while for the relevant parts to be ordered and made.

It is even possibly planned like that. For instance 12802 (the TPE Mk5 driving trailer at CAF Newport) is not complete as parts from it were used to populate the SPARE 12814 currently in set TP02. Granted 197045 is not likely to be an entire spare set of coaches !.

 

[33017]

Are there any updates on the long-accepted but never used 197045 please?

Also, it’s been a while since we had a new one in service. Are there any expected introductions for the remaining 005, 102, 103 or 107?

197005 and 197045 were accepted by TfW today.