Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[wildcard]

When I looked at fares from Bletchley to Windsor, an anytime ticket was needed for any return departure from Windsor that required leaving from Euston between 1600 and 1900, and any departure that was from Windsor between 1600 and 1990, which made the afternoon peak window last from about 1430 to 1900.

It will be interesting to see if the Contactless PAYG implementation is done the same way, but at present the relevant information isn't available.

Currently with Oyster/Contactless - there is a "counterpeak" exception if you travel in the afternoon peak against the flow on the Euston lines - so Watford Jnct to Euston after 16:00 ( before 19:00) is off-peak but any travel outside of this line is peak. So in the Windsor - Bletchley example I would hope the post 16:00 Windsor - to say TCR section is charged off -peak and the before 19:00 TCR to Bletchley remains peak.

 

[MrJeeves]

This does, however, mean there will be journeys shown as requiring an Anytime ticket where CPAY would charge the Off-Peak rate and vice versa

And also means there's a significant opportunity for split ticketing at an intermediate stop at the 9:30 cutoff!

 

[CyrusWuff]

And also means there's a significant opportunity for split ticketing at an intermediate stop at the 9:30 cutoff!

Yup. Also for buying long and starting short (except on c2c, as their entire route's included in Phase 1.)

 

[MasterPhillips]

I was under the impression TfL don’t have an evening peak so what is the justification for introducing an evening peak restriction on SWR when one doesn’t exist current?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I was under the impression TfL don’t have an evening peak so what is the justification for introducing an evening peak restriction on SWR when one doesn’t exist current?

Evening peak on Oyster and Contactless is 1600 to 1900 on most routes when travelling away from central London.

Off-Peak Day Travelcards and caps still apply during those times, however.

 

[MasterPhillips]

Evening peak on Oyster and Contactless is 1600 to 1900 on most routes when travelling away from central London.

Off-Peak Day Travelcards and caps still apply during those times, however.

So currently travelling from say London Waterloo to Feltham, between 1600 and 1900 is peak contactless fare, but off peak if it’s a paper return or travelcard?

 

[JonathanH]

So currently travelling from say London Waterloo to Feltham, between 1600 and 1900 is peak contactless fare, but off peak if it’s a paper return or travelcard?

There aren't any 'paper' off peak tickets for journeys solely within Zones 1-6 (other than travelcard), and haven't been any since 2010.

A journey from Waterloo to Feltham between 1600 and 1900 is charged at the peak fare on Oyster and Contactless with no railcard discounts applicable. A journey from Feltham starting between 1600 and 1900 which ends in zones 2 to 6 is also charged at the peak rate. A journey at those times ending in zone 1 is charged at the off-peak rate.

 

[MasterPhillips]

There aren't any 'paper' off peak tickets for journeys solely within Zones 1-6 (other than travelcard), and haven't been any since 2010.

A journey from Waterloo to Feltham between 1600 and 1900 is charged at the peak fare on Oyster and Contactless with no railcard discounts applicable. A journey from Feltham starting between 1600 and 1900 which ends in zones 2 to 6 is also charged at the peak rate. A journey at those times ending in zone 1 is charged at the off-peak rate.

Ah, apologies I wasn’t aware. As a resident of Ashford (next stop after Feltham) I was curious to see how things are there currently as Ashford will presumably be the same once contactless is extended there soon.

 

[JonathanH]

Ah, apologies I wasn’t aware. As a resident of Ashford (next stop after Feltham) I was curious to see how things are there currently as Ashford will presumably be the same once contactless is extended there soon.

No, I'd imagine the changes on 3 December will come as a bit of a shock to passengers in the relevant area, even if they bring in principles previously applicable within London. It is however fortunate in that context that Travelcard isn't being abolished in January.

 

[Hadders]

You would think it would be cheaper with a Network Railcard. As a cardholder myself I’d be interested to know too.

Not necessarily. A Network Railcard has a £13 minimum fare on weekdays and cannot be used before 10am.

 

[Haywain]

The changes that SWR are making to the fares structure for paper tickets are somewhat surprising, and are certainly not absolutely necessary. On Thameslink (northern end) there has been no change to the fares structure where contactless payment has been introduced. And in Project Oval calls for pricing managers that I attended a year or so ago it was made clear that contactless could sit alongside an existing fares structure.

 

[JonathanH]

The changes that SWR are making to the fares structure for paper tickets are somewhat surprising, and are certainly not absolutely necessary. On Thameslink (northern end) there has been no change to the fares structure where contactless payment has been introduced. And in Project Oval calls for pricing managers that I attended a year or so ago it was made clear that contactless could sit alongside an existing fares structure.

It isn't just SWR making these changes, although the fares on existing routes are not changing, and didn't at implementation as you say. Looking at fares on the other routes in Phase 1, it appears that the fare structure for paper tickets is changing in a similar way.

It is going to create a large number of anomalies and inconsistencies though.

 

[Goldfish62]

It isn't just SWR making these changes, although the fares on existing routes are not changing, and didn't at implementation as you say. Looking at fares on the other routes in Phase 1, it appears that the fare structure for paper tickets is changing in a similar way.

It is going to create a large number of anomalies and inconsistencies though.

I've noticed that there are some reductions in Evening Out tickets for stations outside the new PAYG area. My typical journey during the week is into Waterloo or Clapham Junction in the AM peak with an anytime day single and returning mid-afternoon with an evening out single with railcard. The evening out single reduces by around £1.00 - £1.50.

 

[winks]

Not necessarily. A Network Railcard has a £13 minimum fare on weekdays and cannot be used before 10am

Obviously I already know this. What cardholders would like to know is whether a NSE discounted ticket will remain cheaper than a contactless PAYG fare (excl what you said)

 

[JonathanH]

Obviously I already know this. What cardholders would like to know is whether a NSE discounted ticket will remain cheaper than a contactless PAYG fare

The contactless single fares haven't been launched, but it looks likely they will be the same as the rebased 'paper' single fares.

I'm general, discounted returns will be cheaper on paper tickets with a Network Railcard, as there is no discount on Contactless travel. However, there could well be instances, for journeys of a certain length, because of the £13 minimum fare, single leg pricing and new afternoon peak restrictions where an off-peak single in one direction, and a peak single in the other is cheaper than a discounted anytime day return.

You simply have to consider each journey on its individual merits.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The changes that SWR are making to the fares structure for paper tickets are somewhat surprising, and are certainly not absolutely necessary. On Thameslink (northern end) there has been no change to the fares structure where contactless payment has been introduced. And in Project Oval calls for pricing managers that I attended a year or so ago it was made clear that contactless could sit alongside an existing fares structure.

I'm going to hazard a guess at DfT/TfL moving the goalposts and wanting paper fares to mirror contactless as closely as possible.

Given TfL's systems can only handle peak or off-peak, that means removing Super Off-Peak.

No doubt it'll be spun as "avoiding customer confusion" or similar.

 

[LUYMun]

This page on the SWR website sets out the changes to the fare structure at the 12 SWR stations in Project Oval Phase 1, as discussed above.

Although paper fares change from 3 December, it is non-committal about the date PAYG starts.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com...ontactless-extension-fare-restrictions-change

Eliminating the Sunday and Evening Return tickets is a bad move for SWR. Such tickets allow more seats to be taken at less busy times, and given this is the South West more people will just switch to road.

 

[JonathanH]

Eliminating the Sunday and Evening Return tickets is a bad move for SWR. Such tickets allow more seats to be taken at less busy times, and given this is the South West more people will just switch to road.

It is only in the area covered by Phase 1 of Project Oval, which is basically the Windsor, Shepperton branches and stations between Ashford and Virginia Water, plus journeys to the rest of the Contactless zone.

 

[Alex365Dash]

It is only in the area covered by Phase 1 of Project Oval, which is basically the Windsor, Shepperton branches and stations between Ashford and Virginia Water, plus journeys to the rest of the Contactless zone.

One must wonder whether SWR has the same idea to later roll out said fares changes on the rest of their network covered by Project Oval, but that’s for if/when it actually happens…

 

[778]

The contactless single fares haven't been launched, but it looks likely they will be the same as the rebased 'paper' single fares.

I'm general, discounted returns will be cheaper on paper tickets with a Network Railcard, as there is no discount on Contactless travel. However, there could well be instances, for journeys of a certain length, because of the £13 minimum fare, single leg pricing and new afternoon peak restrictions where an off-peak single in one direction, and a peak single in the other is cheaper than a discounted anytime day return.

You simply have to consider each journey on its individual merits.

Do you think they will get rid of off peak paper tickets for journeys in the contactless zone, so that a contactless journey is less expensive than a paper ticket with a railcard discount?

 

[Haywain]

Do you think they will get rid of off peak paper tickets for journeys in the contactless zone, so that a contactless journey is less expensive than a paper ticket with a railcard discount?

Paper tickets will remain because not everybody can use contactless - children, railcard holders, those paying by cash for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eliminating the Sunday and Evening Return tickets is a bad move for SWR. Such tickets allow more seats to be taken at less busy times, and given this is the South West more people will just switch to road.

One of the aspects of contactless operators like is that most users don't pay any attention at all to how much it is, so I doubt they will at all. It puts it on an even keel with the private car, where people usually pay no attention to the cost of individual journeys due to the fact that it's disconnected from when they fuel or charge the car.

 

[Goldfish62]

I've had a look at the impact on fares beyond Virginia Water towards Reading outside the PAYG area and the Sunday Out single and return fares have been increased from 3rd December by around 6-7%. So an increase of existing fares by stealth, with a further national increase to come in March.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I'm not sure what the question is. Freedom passes don't apply in the extended Contactless area and the changes to paper tickets don't change what happens for journeys within the existing area.

The fares from Boundary Zone 6 are likely to have the same restrictions as being mentioned above, but the information to check isn't available yet.

Well at the moment there is a morning peak for freedom passes within z1-6 but no evening peak. If they are introducing evening peaks will these lead to an evening blockade for freedom pass users?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2023 ==

Paper tickets will remain because not everybody can use contactless - children, railcard holders, those paying by cash for example.

My friend has a senior Railcard on his oyster card

 

[JonathanH]

My friend has a senior Railcard on his oyster card

Many people do but that is of no consequence to the Phase 1 Oval area which is Contactless only.

Well at the moment there is a morning peak for freedom passes within z1-6 but no evening peak. If they are introducing evening peaks will these lead to an evening blockade for freedom pass users?

There is an evening peak across London already for Oyster / Contactless single fares. Again of no consequence to freedom pass use.

 

[Haywain]

My friend has a senior Railcard on his oyster card

Oyster is not contactless, and doesn't apply to the extended Project Oval area, which is what this thread is about.

 

[JonathanH]

The page on the SWR website that I linked to and quoted in message 666 appears to have been removed and replaced by a redirect to a generic page about the extension of PAYG on the SWR network.

There doesn't seem to be anything on the websites of the other affected operators about the fundamental change to fares and restrictions in the Phase 1 area that occurs in 10 days time. Why is there so little information being put in the public domain, other than updated fares on booking engines?

Is it potentially a desire not to confuse people that PAYG is available to coincide with the 'paper' fare change?

Coincidentally, I note that this page doesn't refer to a December / 'by the end of year' introduction for Phase 1 of Project Oval PAYG now.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/smart-ticketing/contactless-payg-extension

Contactless pay as you go is coming to more stations soon

The Department for Transport (DfT) announced that contactless pay as you go (PAYG) will be extended to 53 National Rail stations across the south-east including the following 12 South Western Railway (SWR) stations:

Ashford (Surrey)
Datchet
Egham
Kempton Park
Shepperton
Staines
Sunbury
Sunnymeads
Upper Halliford
Virginia Water
Windsor & Eton Riverside
Wraysbury

Contactless pay as you go (PAYG) is another way to pay

Just touch in and out with your contactless card, phone or other mobile device to travel in and around London. No need to top up, buy in advance, or queue for a ticket.

What is contactless pay as you go?

If you're travelling within the London Zonal Area (1 to 9), and to certain stations beyond, you can use a contactless card, phone or other mobile device to pay as you go.

As long as you touch in and out on a card reader, you will be charged the appropriate adult rate fare.

Find out more about contactless, including valid payment methods and devices.

Where can I use contactless pay as you go?

Contactless PAYG can currently be used for journeys wholly within the London Zonal area, and to some stations further out (network dependent) on National Rail and Transport for London Rail services, London Underground, DLR, London Buses and London Trams. When it goes live you will also be able to use contactless PAYG to travel to 53 National Rail stations in the south-east including 12 on the SWR network.

 

[miklcct]

I've had a look at the impact on fares beyond Virginia Water towards Reading outside the PAYG area and the Sunday Out single and return fares have been increased from 3rd December by around 6-7%. So an increase of existing fares by stealth, with a further national increase to come in March.

I have checked the fares from Clapham Junction to Datchet, departing 17:30 and returning 20:30. The current return fare is £13.60 but after the implementation, a return will cost £19 and two singles will cost £16.10; while departing after 19:00, a return costs £10.50 now but £13.20 after implementation. So an underhanded fare increase worse than LNER while implementing single-leg pricing.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The page on the SWR website that I linked to and quoted in message 666 appears to have been removed and replaced by a redirect to a generic page about the extension of PAYG on the SWR network.

There doesn't seem to be anything on the websites of the other affected operators about the fundamental change to fares and restrictions in the Phase 1 area that occurs in 10 days time. Why is there so little information being put in the public domain, other than updated fares on booking engines?

At a guess, they've been instructed not to provide any comms by the DfT or Rail Delivery Group. I note from Internal Knowledgebase that a Staff Brief on the topic was only issued today as well.

 

[Goldfish62]

At a guess, they've been instructed not to provide any comms by the DfT or Rail Delivery Group. I note from Internal Knowledgebase that a Staff Brief on the topic was only issued today as well.

I'm sure we can remedy that...